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Discussion Let's Talk Amazons

Discussion in 'Fluff and Stories' started by Warden, May 18, 2016.

  1. Warden
    Slann

    Warden Tenth Spawning

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    To start with, here is the lore that I have dug up so far.

    Lustriapedia: Amazons (first one on the list)

    From some other sources:

    All-female tribes dwelling within the jungle along the Amaxon river, on an impregnable island temple fortress in the center of the great river. Originally believed to be descendants of outcasts of the original Norscan settlement of Skeggi (Lizardmen Army Book, 6th ed. 2003 page 16; Mordheim Town Cryer #15, page 18)

    Amaxon River- “at its widest points, the opposite bank is scarcely visible, and archipelagos stretch for miles along the river. What might be hidden on some of these isolated islands has never been discovered, for even the aquatic Skinks avoid them, by order of the Slann” (Lizardmen Army Book, 7th ed. 2009 page 26)

    Emerald Pools- “The only warmbloods that even know of the pool’s existence are the savage human tribeswomen of the region, and these hold them in as much reverence as the Slann, bathing in the glowing green waters of life” (Lizardmen Army Book, 7th ed. 2009 page 35)

    Temple of Kara- “Some skink Priests hold that there exist places outside of the Lizarmen’s control, such as the legendary Temple of Kara where the most powerful of artefacts are stored, attended by the warrior women of the jungle tribes and kept secrets even from the servants of their creators” (Lizardmen Army Book, 7th ed. 2009 page 100)

    Many of the Amazon warrior-women were known to pledge themselves into totem-derived warrior societies, such as Eagle Warrior, Piranha Warrior, Jaguar Warrior, etc (similar to Aztecs), also known to have Serpent Priestesses (Mordheim Town Cryer #15, page 18)

    Also here is a fantastic build-up quote from Mordheim:

    “Wild Tales abound of a tribe of fierce warrior women living deep within the New World Continent of Lustria. Recently the jungle has erupted into rivers of blood and many explorers and traders have been slaughtered apparently by wild, screaming female warriors. These savages are also claimed to be fearsome head-hunters who attack without quarter all that disturb their peace or trespass on their territory. It is reputed by the few lucky survivors that these lost maidens are as fair as they are ruthless. It is also claimed that many foolish men are easily enticed by these she-devils and end up with their heads upon poles in some grisly and bizarre pagan ritual. All are advised to kill these fell creatures and avoid any islands on the Amaxon river. There is a new peril in Lustria and goes by the name AMAZON…” (Mordheim Town Cryer #15, page 1)


    Based on this research, it appears that Amazons are either a) women who left the original Norse settlement of Skeggi and struck out on their own, stealing men to increase their numbers/found the fountain of youth, or b) are an earlier experiment of the Old Ones to create a human-like race to do their bidding. It appears that most of these warrior women are able to travel to many of the most sacred Lizardmen sites, such as the Emerald Pools. In other cases the Lizardmen are expressively forbidden to approach the lands of the Amazons, such as their island homes, or have abandoned sites that the Amazons now use, such as the Temple of Kara.

    Questions for you:

    What is the state of Amazon/Lizardmen relations? According to some of the Mordheim sources the Amazons use skink/lizardmen pelts for clothing, and have been at war with the Lizardmen over their territory many times. If the Amazons worship the Old Ones, why the conflict? What are the Amazon's motivations? And how do the Lizardmen view the Amazons? Lost children of the Old Ones, or possibly a mistake in the great plan?
     
  2. Warden
    Slann

    Warden Tenth Spawning

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    Two more bits of Amazon lore from Mordheim for you to ponder:

    Amazon Mordheim Lore 1.png



    Amazon Mordheim Lore 2.png
     
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  3. Y'ttar Scaletail
    Troglodon

    Y'ttar Scaletail Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't there an Amazon army list of some kind in an old WD that portrayed them as having pilfered Lizzie equipment and sometimes scale pelts?
     
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  4. Warden
    Slann

    Warden Tenth Spawning

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    Oh that would be awesome! I haven't found a copy of that list but I will look. All I have found is the amazing unofficial one, but if there was a list published by GW I haven't found it yet.
     
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  5. Y'ttar Scaletail
    Troglodon

    Y'ttar Scaletail Well-Known Member

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    Issue 307, there's only stats for the Serpent Priestesses as a Dogs of War Hero and Rare choice with the Lore of the Serpent. Will have a quick leaf through my copy for any extra lore.
     
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  6. Y'ttar Scaletail
    Troglodon

    Y'ttar Scaletail Well-Known Member

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    Here's a couple interesting quotes:

    "The more I learned of the gods of the lizard people, the more incredulous I became. Their pantheon was at that point near indecipherable to me, and appeared to include one whose place is to exist outside said order, and to be worshipped by no 'True Children of the Gods'. Yet it is written that this outsider shall be tended to unto the end of time by her 'Faithful Half-kin'. Was this being one of the Old Ones, or a mortal chosen to bear their seed? The answer came after many long months of patient research, and even then, I would question everything I had come to believe..." - Cryston von Danling, of the Jade College (WD #307, p. 34)

    "The High Priestesses of the Amazonian Sisterhood bear items of undoubtably Lizardmen origin, yet the Lizardmen make no obvious move to retrieve these. Rather, it appears as if the Amazons are accepted by the Mage-Priests as part of the natural order of things. This is not to suggest, however, that the two parties never come to blows, for it is known that they do." (WD #307, p. 34)
     
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  7. Rikard
    Stegadon

    Rikard Well-Known Member

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    Well, they do seem to be treated in a similar style to other armies, one edition presents them in one light, then an entirely different light in a following edition.

    Rigg for example was originally an outcast Old One and even had her own model from way back when (2nd edition I believe, possibly even earlier).
    [​IMG]

    One thing I liked about Rigg, is she's the first Old One as it were to be given a solid description of what she looked like (Sotek being the exception for other Old Ones), as beyond that I've also thought of the Old Ones as being genderless, apparent designations and definitions being utterly irrelevent to them.

    [​IMG]


    I did find these fan made PDFs for the Amaxons, perhaps some inspiration/espresso for the mind.
    https://issuu.com/m4cr1ii3n/docs/warhammer_armies_-_amazons (really nicely done, a huge amount of work went into this).

    http://battlereporter.blogspot.com/2010_10_01_archive.html (some snippets from another book, again, a nice fan based take on the Amaxons)
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2016
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  8. Essmir
    Chameleon Skink

    Essmir Well-Known Member

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    Well can't they be converts of norsca leaving the dark gods for the old ones. And now centurys later they have a diffrent interpretation of the great plan?
     
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  9. Rikard
    Stegadon

    Rikard Well-Known Member

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    First time I read about them, the impression I got was their husbands/potential husbands went out to plunder and get rich, but went out and got killed instead and Norse society (5th ed times), being a rather sexist one, frowned upon the shield maidens (who were easily doing a better job of things than their late husbands) and were exiled for it.
     
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  10. SlanntaClause
    Carnasaur

    SlanntaClause Well-Known Member

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    I'm assuming the Slann leave the amazon women alone because of Riggs being an Old One then even if she were an outcast - they must have respect for her and her people or something - maybe even the artefacts they guard?
     
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  11. SlanntaClause
    Carnasaur

    SlanntaClause Well-Known Member

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    @Warden thanks for the enlightening conversation topic I love learning more about the lore of lustria :D
     
  12. Rikard
    Stegadon

    Rikard Well-Known Member

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    Well that's another part of the mystery, I always assumed Rigg was outcast as a point of pettiness because she chose her form and gave herself a gender (and then there's the favouring the Amaxons/doing her own thing and making it quite clear she would not tolerate being bossed around).
     
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  13. SlanntaClause
    Carnasaur

    SlanntaClause Well-Known Member

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    What if she was the creator of most races and got outcast for it? she being mother nature :p that was my first assumption its all shrouded in mystery and guesses when you're new to the lore :p
     
  14. Bowser
    Slann

    Bowser Third Spawning

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    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
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  15. SlanntaClause
    Carnasaur

    SlanntaClause Well-Known Member

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    In the supplement I'm reading at the moment published 1997 and reprinted 1999 with corrections it says on page 13

    "When large numbers of warriors deserted Losteriksson's settlement at Skeggi because they were impatient to go and find gold, they left their wives behind. When they did not return, these and many other Norse maidens who had come to Skeggi hoping to find a brave and wealthy warrior as a husband were bitterly disappointed. Furthermore the number of warriors defending Skeggi was badly depleted. These resolute Norse women became Valkyries, by which name the dreaded Norse women warriors are known. Unfortunately, women warriors are not accepted by Norse warrior society which holds that "axe wielding in battle is man's work and not for women!" After helping to beat off the foe, the Norse women warriors were in no mood to put away their weapons and go back to weaving breeches for the menfolk. The Valkyries were forced to leave Skeggi. They were given a longship and sailed far along the coast and up the estuary of a great river."

    (At this point I am left feeling slightly well no lets be honest wholly disappointed although this is nice I really wanted the women to originate from Lustria so the Amazon / Amaxon women seem to be a tribe of Norse women - at least according to this army book - it doesn't say it speculatively it sort of tells it as an as is /as was story)

    It goes on to say..

    "The Valkyries finally settled in a swampy island in the middle of the river, surrounded on all sides by impenetrable jungle. The Island contained the deserted ruins of Lizardmen temples, and this place became the Valkyrie's stronghold. Many years later these same warriors were encountered by Elf and Dwarf adventurers who had sailed up the river and attacked the settlement thinking it to be a Lizardman city. They were beaten off and fled, bringing back tales of strange warrior women worshipping Lizardmen gods"

    (Now I'm thinking if Rigg is an Old One - which is pretty much stated that she is an outcast Old One then they might be worshipping her...however they are "tales" so they might just assume that the women folk are worshipping Lizardmen gods because they reside in their temples.)

    "They called them 'Amazons' after the name of the river. The island they call 'Heart of Darkness' because of the denseness of the surrounding jungle."

    (I think I've read it as Amaxon before which is fair enough but Amazon is pretty much just lazy lore writing IMO or maybe just writing that reflects the social perceptions of the past society - Its like the material of Lizardmen weapons it is called "Obsinite" or something like this which is basically a variation on Obsidian and they are even described as being made from Volcanic glass. However the element is not recognised by the known world and its scholars so it may be a more complex variation of this or even a alloy substance created by the Old Ones)

    "Needless to say, the Amazons now bear scant resemblance to proper Norse Valkyries, having adopted the trappings of the Lizardmen culture which they found in the ruins. Furthermore, the fact that they are still there and their numbers have never been replenished and are never likely to be, lends credibility to the rumour that they have discovered a strange tropical drug which gives them everlasting youth and longevity.

    (I cant remember if it was speculation by one of the forum members saying an all women tribe likely lures Norse men and explores to replenish their numbers - however this book seems to lean towards them having found immortality at least Elf (lotr elf) immortality. Be it by fountain of youth, strange fruit or the will of Rigg herself. My Fiancée recently bought wonder woman tv box set and its remarkable how similar her culture is there to the Amazons they live on paradise island as an all women civilization and have grown strong and godlike without the taint of man - they too have long lives maybe even immortal - perhaps Warhammer was inspired by this or the other way round depending on the times either was released. )

    "This rumour alone has attracted many would be raiders to their stronghold, for such a potion would be more valuable then gold. The Amazons have never taken sides with the Lizardmen, nor have the Lizardmen ever sought their help. They remain invaders as far as the Lizardmen are concerned. The Amazons are therefore alone and never fight for anyone except themselves"

    (This tells me that that the Slann that tell the Lizardmen to leave this tribe alone (if its the same tribe they aren't allowed to interfere with) must have a really good reason, because even in this book there are many mentions of Lizardmen doing anything to get back their golden Plaques - perhaps the city had none - but if it did the women would be a threat being near them - unless the Slann know they are defending it as their own so do not fear the women taking them and instead leave the tribe defend it on their behalf - or the Plaques were removed beforehand. They are seen as invaders still so it is curious that they do not take up arms against them to take back their city. If Rigg really does support these women then perhaps this is why the Lizardmen leave them alone - they have great respect for the Old Ones but perhaps see the women as invaders still as the collude with an Outcast Old One - If this be true then at least one of the Old Ones is accountable for and their disappearance might not be the end of them.)


    This type a considerable time to type up i'm regretting not just taking a picture of the extract or finding it online xd
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
  16. Warden
    Slann

    Warden Tenth Spawning

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    Thank you for the old files on the Amazons and Rigg @Rikard and @SlanntaClause !

    Personally I like the origin story about the Amazon's descending from the Norse settlers of Lustria, BUT I prefer the origin story where they were created for a separate purpose by the Old Ones and deposited in Lustria for some unknown reason. I think that the "myth" of jungle descendants of a long-lost group of Norse Warrior women is simply the storytelling and discourse of the later-day settlers of the New World, who were trying to come up with a reason for why in the world their are hot women warriors ambushing and beating them up in the middle of the jungle. Of course the newcomers would have to invent a story, and in their limited understanding of the ways of the Old Ones they came up with what made sense. They looked like they were norse, so they must have been long-lost descendants. Of course no Amazon would let them corroborate the story.


    Question about this one. The Lizardmen seem to just leave the Amazons alone fo rhte most part, even though the Lizardmen don't really like them they never ally with each other, and the Lizardmen don't go out of their way to seek their help.

    What would happen if an Amazon showed up in Lizardmen territory? If they showed up in a temple city? Or an old ruin on the outskirts? Would the Lizardmen order the Amazon to be killed outright? Would they ignore the Amazon? Be confused as to why the Amazon showed up there? Maybe just let the Amazon go about her business as part of the Old Ones' plan?
     
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  17. SlanntaClause
    Carnasaur

    SlanntaClause Well-Known Member

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    It said the Slann tell the Lizardmen not to go near them but they are in Lizardmen territory already - perhaps it is different if the women come to them I'm really not sure - the Lizardmen leave Skeggi alone after their artifacts were thrown over the walls to them - I think it's a case of if you leave their artifacts alone they'll leave you alone and since the women are staying where they are with them they don't need to chase them down to get them back - but why they don't guard them themselves is beyond my comprehension there must be more to it - there must :p
     
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  18. spawning of Bob
    Skar-Veteran

    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    Going somewhat backwards, the discussion starts with the Greeks who referenced female warriors - Amazons in their epic history / legends. An Amazonian Queen was a player in the Iliad (the Battle of Troy) and they appear in bas-relief in the Parthenon. Archaeologically they were likely Scythians / Sarmatians (modern Ukraine).

    Around 1541, Gonzalo Pizzarro's 2nd in command had an adventure "On the Nhamunda River, a tributary of the Amazon downstream from Manaus, Orellana's party had a fierce battle with warriors who, they reported, were led by fierce female warriors who beat the men to death with clubs if they tried to retreat.[citation needed] Orellana's men began referring to the women asAmazons, a reference to the women of Greek Mythology. The river was initially known as the Marañón (the name by which the Peruvian part of the river is still known today) or Rio de Orellana. It later became known as the Rio Amazonas, the name by which it is still known in both Spanish and Portuguese." (The other Lustriapedia)

    The river and rainforest basin adopted the name based on Greek myth and the fevered imagination of some sick and starving adventurers.

    Some years later, a lazy GW writer decided to populate a mythical South America with factions, and it would have been hard to go past the fact that the real place was named after a mythical Greek race of scantily clad warrior babes. Easiest idea ever!

    I'm not criticising any of this, by the way. Except for the spelling - I think it should be "Amaxon" in all cases.

    Giving the GW habit of papering over history instead of progressing it, I bet some writers on this forum could come up with a better integration of the origin stories than GW would even attempt. For me, I've got some indigenous human jungle tribes for plot convenience called "Amaxonians". This doesn't preclude a female over class, or an entirely different population confined to the river islands.

    I am cool with them having a form of Old One worship, and the Slann keeping them at arm's length for reasons of who they worship / the place they reside being holy / the place they reside being irrelevant / they are a useful buffer with some control over the river systems but no territorial ambitions.

    I hope someone explores them further.
     
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  19. SlanntaClause
    Carnasaur

    SlanntaClause Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to volunteer to explore these amazon babes further
     
  20. spawning of Bob
    Skar-Veteran

    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    Is that a twinkle in your eye, Slannta, or are you just happy to see me?
     
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