Hey, guys, I've just gotten into the Lizardmen faction recently and I am very interested over there lore. I know that the Slann are very powerful specifically Lord Kroak and Mazdamundi but what about Nakai, Kroq Gar, Gorok and Tehenhauin where do they stand among the strongest beings in lore
Originally posted by Skørne: Venerable Lord Kroak is the most powerful wizard, being the first ever Slann, but he's dead and only has one spell. Still, it's one of the strongest spells ever. Lord Mazdamundi is the most powerful living spellcaster. No mortal really measures up - he can move continents and summon mountains with his mind without much issue. His signature spell is "Ruination of Cities" and it does what it says on the tin. And Zlaaq's a pretty good mount too, so he's got that going for him as well. Kroq-Gar is the most physically powerful Lizardman. Pretty much magic is the only thing that could kill him; he'd beat Gor-Rok and even Nakai in a duel any time. His vast experience, age, extremely strong mount and insanely powerful weapons make him one hell of tough reptile and one of the biggest players in the entirety of Warhammer fantasy. Nakai is the second most physically powerful Lizardman and the oldest non-Slann. He's the biggest, the toughest and the strongest by a fair margin, not to mention but he lacks both a mount and the tactical advantages that Kroq-Gar has. He's smart for a Kroxigor, being the only known survivor of their First Spawning, but he's still not a genius. Still, he could beat the snot out of any Saurus except Kroq-Gar. Chakax is probably the third most physically powerful Lizardman, he's tough enough to fight a group of Skavendom's greatest assassins all at once on his own and kill all of them without much issue. He's a pretty decent beatstick but his job is just to prevent Slann from dying, which he's really good at. Gor-Rok is on a similar level to Chakax, they're probably interchangable really. He's often overrated I find; he's not as big or powerful as a lot of people claim. Which is not to say he's not big or powerful, because he is, and he's certainly one of the most resilient of the Lizardmen's characters. He's got a very sturdy shield, a big magic mace and never, ever retreats or stops. Tehenhauin is a pretty good combatant and a decent wizard, but his power lies less on the battlefield and more in the political and religious field. In a proper fight he wouldn't really win against any of the above characters. Tiktaq'to is a pretty tough Skink, clever and quick enough to prevent Hexoatl from falling for over a month to a very big army of Chaos. He's a master of hit and run, but if he ever got caught out he'd be easy to crush. Oxyotl is one of the most powerful assassins there are; it takes a lot of fortitude, cunning and stealth to survive a whole year in the Realm of Chaos and come out both intact and sane. In a one on one he'd lose to pretty much most of the Lizardmen characters but he never fights one on one. His enemies only ever catch a glimpse of him before dying. Tetto'eko is a Skink Priest of Heavens on steroids. He can summon big meteors and use decently powerful magic, but he's not a Slann and he's not a fighter. Weakest Lizardman character. That's just lore, though. Personally I find Kroq-Gar to be the best faction in Total War, but Gor-Rok and Tiktaq'to probably have pretty easy campaigns as well. This is a response made by skorne on a similar question. Here's the link : https://steamcommunity.com/app/594570/discussions/0/1749021736842746800/
I'm not sure I totally agree with the steam post, Kroak is the most powerful spellcaster in the setting with Mazdamundi as likely the most powerful living spellcaster (at the very least, just because he's the most active of the second generation slann and the one that's their defacto leader in times of crisis. I don't know if there's any lore on how he actually measures up to them, beyond the end times thing where he outlasted all the other slann who tried to help him defend the planet), but that's also with the caveat of not really knowing how he measures up to end times incarnates or nagash at full power. Gor'rok and Nakai are definitely tied for most phsyically powerful lizardmen, though, I wouldn't consider Kroq'gar to be stronger than either even if he's definitely got a keener mind and better tactics. Those two are effectively unkillable walls of muscle, unstoppable forces of nature (maybe even literally in the case of nakai, whether he's even actually a lizardman or simply the will of the jungles made manifest is always kind of nebulous, even in TW:WH 2). Chakax is just very good at his job, the best of the temple guard and maybe the keenest of mind if you take his discernment as general problem solving, but either way he's maybe the quickest thinking of the saurus, but not notably strong in the same way Gor'rok is. I'd also say Tetto'eko probably comes out above Tehenhauin, being the more powerful spellcaster by a large margin (and also literally seeing the future). He's frailer and his reverence from the skinks is slann-like rather than the fierce "I will march to war and die for you, as you ignite a fury in me" kind of thing that the Red Host inspires, but I don't think that weighs in too much to the question. I guess there's also the element of Tehenhauin possibly being some kind of title, or immortal, or reborn at key times, but that's kind of nebulous and difficult to pin down so I would't weigh that in too much either. The others I mostly agree with, Tiktaq'to is one of the greatest skink chiefs, but not more than that, and Oxylotl is one of the best asssassins in the setting.
I didn't factor in End Times, partially because I don't like it, and mostly because that particular ranking is of a setting where it doesn't apply. Lord Mazdamundi was the direct pupil of Lord Kroak as well as being the eldest living Slann, so it's really not unreasonable to consider him the most powerful. If I was to change anything in that ranking at all it'd be that I underrated Chakax a bit, he's actually a lot stronger than I originally thought. Not enough to move up ahead of Nakai, but definitely a fair bit better than Gor-Rok.
Grimgor. Grimgor is an epic fighter. His exploits are far more legendary and he is a significantly more important/influential Warhammer character than Gor-rok. Also consider that Grimgor is a lord choice, while Gor-rok is only a hero choice. That classification gives us a bit of insight in terms of their relative power levels. Lore-wise, a lord level character will likely be more powerful than a hero level character.
Define strength? I disagree with your classification of Gor-rok. He is an exceptionally strong character lore wise, my favourite is the Aragorn/Lurtz style fight described between him and the dark elves, very badass. I would suggest that Kroq-gar has more martial prowess than Gor-rok but I wouldn't say stronger necessarily.
I wouldn't be so sure. I mean Grimgor would probably win, as a lot of people love greenskins and they would not be happy if he lost; I'm just not sure the hero/lord classification necessarily holds up; sure it gives an idea of the power level within factions and certainly holds up in terms of game-rules, but who is to say that a greenskin hero is about the same power level as a Lizardman hero, it could very well be the case that a Lizardmen hero is the equivalent of a greenskin lord in power level or vice versa. Hadn't Archaon fought for a couple of days at that point, whereas Grimgor was fresh and just entering combat?
Gor-Rok is often overrated in my opinion. He's big for a Saurus maybe (but not that big), pretty tough, sure, and has an enchanted mace and a big shield, which is useful. But he's slow and not very manoeuvrable or clever. He's a pretty resilient Anvil but I think the other Lizardmen melee fighters (Nakai, Kroq-Gar and Chakax) are definitely big enough hammers to crack him.
I see your point, and I would agree with you (lorewise), if we were comparing a Lizardmen character to something like an Empire, Skaven or Bretonnian character. However, I think that comparing a Saurus character to a Black Orc character is probably pretty fair. If we look at the basic unit from which these characters are derived (Saurus Warrior in the case of Gor-Rok and a Black Orc in the case of Grimgor) they seem to be with the same ballpark as each another. Both are significantly stronger and tougher than an average human (in gaming terms they both post a strength and toughness of 4). Also in both instances, they are natural fighters. In the case of humans, there are many ordinary citizens, but Black Orcs and Saurus are all built for combat. So why do I think that Grimgor would (easily) defeat Gor-Rok?: [Fluff reason] Grimgor has far more-in story notoriety. His exploits are far more impressive than that of Gor-Rok. Within the Warhammer universe he is significantly more feared and much more well known. (admittedly some of this can be attributed to Grimgor residing in the Old World while Gor-Rok stomps about in the New World / Lustria). [Fluff reason] Orcs are constantly fighting and they live in a society built upon the weak perishing and the strong rising to the top (and Grimgor sits right at the top). That which does not kill us, makes us stronger. According to his fluff, seldom does a single day go by where Grimgor does not fight. This means that his skills are constantly being sharpened, he faces more opponents (in terms of both numbers and variation), and has proven to be better than more combatants (otherwise he would lose is place in Orc society). [Fluff reason] As much as I hate the End Times, Grimgor did become the Incarnate of Beasts. This gives him a little bit of distinction as a truly powerful Warhammer character. There is no way that such a feat would be achieved by Gor-Rok [Fluff reason] Grimgor is among the very best of all Orc combatants, while Gor-Rok is below all the Oldbloods. I don't think it is unfair to assume that the very best fighter that Orcs can muster would defeat an elite (but not best of the best) Lizardmen character. [Gaming reason] As mentioned before, Grimgor is a Lord and Gor-Rok is only a hero. Additionally, he costs significantly more points and would paste Gor-Rok in a head-to-head face-off in a game. While gaming-to-fluff evidence is far from perfect, it does give us at least some clue as to their relative power levels. [Practical reason] Grimgor is a very well known character from one of the most popular factions, while Gor-Rok is only a B-level character from a middle of the road army (in terms of popularity). Ultimately, it would be up to the writer of the story (under the guidance of GW) to determine the outcome of their head-to-head match-up. Realistically, they wouldn't damage a more important character (in terms of IP value) to prop up a character of such minimal notoriety as Gor-Rok. Those are the main reasons I can think of off the top of my head. So what is the reasoning that would lead us to believe that Gor-Rok would prevail? I'm not that familiar with the Storm of Chaos story line, but ultimately it doesn't really matter. Archaon is one of the single most badass characters in the entire lore. Beating him is a huge feat, regardless of whether or not he was as rested as Grimgor. Gor-Rok has never defeated an opponent of such caliber.
"When Gor-Rok first emerged from the spawning pool of Itza, his size, pure albino colourings and lone arrival immediately marked him as a future champion. And so it has been — for the Great White Lizard, as Gor-Rok is also known, has fought in countless battles, his heavily scarred body a testament to many thousands of hard-fought triumphs. Gor-Rok is the mightiest of warriors, the solid centre around which the Saurus battle lines advance, and the rock on which Itza’s enemies are broken. Gor-Rok does not know pain or fear, and in combat he is unrelenting — always looking for another opening to attack, while never himself taking a single step backwards. Like all Saurus, Gor-Rok is a fighting machine — a creature wholly purposed for war and the slaughtering of enemies. Unlike most of his species, however, Gor-Rok is oversized — his heavy frame thickly corded with muscles and covered with scales tough enough to turn all but the most determined of sword thrusts. Indeed, Gor-Rok has survived horrendous wounds, and bears monstrous scars, yet never has injury hindered him from duty, or prevented him from achieving victory." If you take the fluff from ANY character you'd be led to think they were a one man army. They aren't gonna say "He's alright, bit shit compared to Archaon." are they?
All valid points, just going to play the devils advocate a bit and show my Lizarmen bias : I agree here, it was partly just to state that comparison in general might not give the best ideas of power level. However even though orcs and indeed black orcs are stronger than humans, I don't know if they are exactly on level with saurus. Orcs might be natural fighters through natural selection and all that, still Saurus are literally made for fighting and have natural defenses and instincts that orcs do not; furthermore orcs can die of old age (to my understanding) so even if Saurus do not fight as frequently, they have more opportunities in total. That is true, but probably as you say, because he is in the Old World, so he is in the perfect place to be in a lot of big events. Still Gor-Rok has in the lore fought in many places, to quote the army book: 'He has slain foes as far away as the Chaos Wastes and tested the strength of his shield against Ogre charges and the might of Greater Daemons'. With that in mind I think it can be argued that they Grimgor and Gor-Rok might be about equal in terms of exploits, the key is 'might' since we don't know for certain of course. Sure orcs have to fight a lot, but Gor-Rok is a perfectly made killing machine right out of the spawning pool, he probably has no need to sharpen his skills as they are natural to him. I think this can partly be contributed to the fact that Orcs are just better candidates for Beast magic, and that they are more central in the lore due to being in the Old World. If I remember correctly Incarnates were only created on Ulthuan or in the Old World, so even if Gor-Rok could have been, he wouldn't. I don't know if he is below Oldbloods necessarily, maybe in terms of war tactics but in terms of pure close combat skills I'm not sure. Even in terms of tactics he can't be too bad, seeing as he has led armies by himself and has been granted his own pyramid, something which I haven't heard any Oldblood get. Beside he has two powerful pieces of equipment, the Mace of Ulamak arguably being a very strong weapon, as it guides his strikes, and he likely does not wield it badly to begin with. Still I do agree that it is not unfair to assume that the best fighter among the orcs could defeat some of Lizardmen's elite. True, but then again rules seldom show the true power levels of characters, just look at Mazdamunid or Kroq-Gar, they are quite pitiful when compared to their lore-equivalents. Can't really argue with that, just not a fan of him myself so I guess I'm just biased.
At least you admit it. (we all fall into that sometimes... I certainly do as well) The lifespan is definitely a fair point, and something that falls in favour of the Saurus. That said, a Dwarf doesn't have nearly the lifespan of a weedy little elf, but they can easily hold their own. As far as instincts go, they can only get you so far. Learning from experience will get you to a higher level (if you survive the journey). That's why humans were able to bring down any prey, even though the prey had greater instincts (and I'm talking long before the advent of guns). Orcs fight more often. I'm sure Grimgor has faced and learned from many more opponents than Gor-Rok. Saurus have less major opponents to face and will only fight when necessary. For Orcs, fighting is a way of life. They are battle tested against more significant opposition (think of all the armies in the old world). Also remember, that there are a lot more orcs than there are saurus. Meaning greater odds of a truly exceptional specimen arising from the masses. Greater numbers means greater odds. I disagree. Of course, each army book is going to prop up their own characters. However, if we move outside of the Orcs & Goblins and Lizardmen books, I think Grimgor is mentioned far more frequently. His impact on the Warhammer world has simply been greater. He who does not learn and evolve, eventually gets left behind. It doesn't matter what kind of innate gifts you're born with, they have to be honed, progressed and adapted. Page 32 of the army book reads as follows: In a society such as the Lizardmen, I'd imagine that rank would be given purely based on merit. Unlike in human civilizations, where politics, birthright and personal connections often mean more, I'm pretty sure Saurus ranks are gained based on ability and accomplishments. We can also see it directly in their generic state lines... Granted, Gor-Rok, being a special character, will be an exceptional example of Scar-Vet, but if he was worthy, then he'd be an Oldblood. Grimgor also has two powerful pieces of magical gear, and I'd argue that his are far more potent. His axe Gitsnik, was crafted in Zharr-Naggrund by the Chaos Dwarfs. Nobody creates better weapons in the Warhammer world than Dwarfs (whether regular Dwarfs or the Chaos variety). This is also massively evidenced in the actual rules, where his weapon grants him 2+ Strength and ASF. That is massively better than Gor-Rok's mace. As for his armour, it grants him a 1+ armour save and 5+ ward. That is far better than Gor-Rok's 2+ armour save and no ward. For the record, in-game, Grimgor mathematically kills Gor-Rok in one round of combat before Gor-Rok can even strike. I would argue that the rules are usually fairly indicative of how powerful a character is. Obviously all characters are scaled back in-game (especially wizards) when compared to their fluff, but that holds true for all of the characters, so the comparison is still valid. I'm not claiming that it is a perfect piece of evidence, but when there is a large disparity, then it usually holds true. There are exceptions to the rule, but more often than not they provide us with some sort of insightful information. Now being worth one's points cost is an entirely different matter. A powerful character can be over-costed while a weak character can be under-costed. Mazdamundi isn't worth his points, while Tetto'eko is a steal, but points aside, Mazdamundi's rules to present him as being more powerful than Tetto. If we discount points, Mazdamundi would stomp him. Your examples you list are fair ones, but that mainly comes down to the fact that ridden monsters are not very good in 8th edition since they can be cannon sniped too easily. Once again, exceptions do apply, but it is still worth noting. I've present a bunch of anecdotal and supporting evidence in favor of Grimgor. There is no purely objective and hard fast proof (in terms of fluff), because they have not fought one another directly in a story. As such, there will never be any conclusive outright winner, but the supplementary evidence does seem to favour Grimgor... and it does so pretty significantly. Some of the rationale I provided does have restrictions and limitations (which both of us largely agree to), but collectively they paint a pretty clear picture (IMHO). What is the evidence in favour of Gor-Rok? Other than having a longer lifespan, he doesn't really have anything else. Let me leave you with one final point. Ask a a bunch of warhammer players (who don't play Orcs or Lizardmen) if they know of Grimgor and Gor-Rok. I would bet that more of them would know of Grimgor. The reason being is that he is more epic. Ask a non-hockey fan to name a player and they will likely name someone like Gretzky. Soccer... Messi, Ronaldo, Pele. Golf... Tiger Woods. Basketball... Micheal Jordan. Why are these figures more easily recognized? Because they were the best. The same is true in Warhammer. There is a reason why more people know of Settra rather than Apophas; the same is true between Grimgor and Gor-Rok. Grimgor is a major warhammer character (not just a major Orc character), while Gor-Rok is a minor Lizardmen character (overshadowed by Kroak, Mazdamundi, Kroq-gar).