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8th Ed. skirmishers holding a charge

Discussion in 'Rules Help' started by silent death, Sep 2, 2011.

  1. silent death
    Jungle Swarm

    silent death New Member

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    If a.unit of orcs declares a charge against a unit of skinks which are in their line of sight
    But when the skinks makes a reform thry are not in the orcs line of sight anymore, is the charge still applicable or since they are not in the orcs los the charge is unsuccesful

    Thanks
    :smug:
     
  2. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Pretty shure you can't reform because someone declared a charge...
     
  3. cyanhawk
    Chameleon Skink

    cyanhawk New Member

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    I dont have the BRB in front of me, but from what I remember after the charge is declared all skirmishers rank up on the middle model. If that puts them outside of line of site or makes the charge distance too short the charge would fail.
     
  4. The  Omen
    Saurus

    The Omen New Member

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    I'd say they can charge, after all they "saw them to declare a charge, just because they line up they arn't going to know that they are not their anymore.

    That said they do need to make the distance to the newly ranked up unit, which will probably be longer than it was before
     
  5. SanDiegoSurrealist
    Ripperdactil

    SanDiegoSurrealist New Member

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    This is a solid tactic –

    Place Skinks so just 1 single model is in the front charge arc of the ORCs.

    When the ORC unit declare their charge take the charge, stand and fire if you can (might as well take a few freebie shots).

    Skimishers always collapse to their center to make fighting ranks, (pg 77) so after you constrict your frontage the Skinks are now out of the Orcs Charge arc. So it is in fact a failed charge, unless they can redirect into something else.

    I have seen this tactic used and have used this tactic successfully a couple of times.

    Works awesome for pulling units out of position.
     
  6. silent death
    Jungle Swarm

    silent death New Member

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    That is the main idea of this scenario so:

    1.the unit of orcs wouldnt be able to advance forward unless it declares a charge
    2.but if the unit declares a charge since the unit would be compressed they wouldnt be in the los of the orcs.

    My point is asking for the written proof that this is viable (rulewise)
     
  7. SanDiegoSurrealist
    Ripperdactil

    SanDiegoSurrealist New Member

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    Page 16 MRB

    Attacker- Declare charge - Must be able to see what you want to charge, front arc and within distance. Which the Skirmishers are when the charge is declared.

    Defender declares reaction – Hold or Stand and Fire. After the declaration to the charge has been made THEN the Skirmisher Unit collapses.

    Attacker- Resolve charge, unit no longer in front arc, so can not complete charge, failed charge.
    Treated just as if the unit had fled, but instead they just side stepped the charge.

    Can only be done with Skirmishers and makes them that much more effective.
     
  8. Cravenus
    Cold One

    Cravenus New Member

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    how awesome is that =)
     
  9. Lord Cedric
    Terradon

    Lord Cedric Member

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    This is actually very interesting. I've never heard nor seen this happen before. It sounds like it would take a bit of practice and also some understanding with whomever you are playing against... as, imo, the line of sight from a model is fairly subjective and can be argued against especially when talking about the width of a single model. I know I've gotten into some *light* arguments over LOS several times - usualy only dealing with possible game-winning charges etc.
     
  10. silent death
    Jungle Swarm

    silent death New Member

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    Posted rule on a different forum as I wasnt 100% sure that this was viable but unfortunately looks like not :(

    http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316187
     
  11. SanDiegoSurrealist
    Ripperdactil

    SanDiegoSurrealist New Member

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    ;) That did not say anything at all about it not working but infact reinforced the tactic.

    From Warseer - "…rolled high enough and you don't wheel more than 90degrees…"

    This tactic is you are stepping out the 90 degree charge arc, resulting in a failed charge.

    and I personally dont think people on Warseer have anymore knowleedge than anyone else to make them any kind of authority.
     
  12. silent death
    Jungle Swarm

    silent death New Member

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    First you wheel 90degrees and then you move the roll of the 2d6.


    I wish this wasnt the truth, man :(
     
  13. SanDiegoSurrealist
    Ripperdactil

    SanDiegoSurrealist New Member

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    You cannot charge a unit that is not in you forward arc because you can not see it to charge it.

    Target still have to be in the charging unit’s front arc (LoS) to make the charge. Once the skirmishers step out of line of sight (compressed to fighting ranks) there is no charge to be made, because they cannot see the unit to charge it, so wheel or not they cannot make charge.
     
  14. The  Omen
    Saurus

    The Omen New Member

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    You'd be hard pushed to get out of the 90 degree wheel though if all you are doing is reforming the skirmisher to receive the charge.

    They can only declare a charge against you if you are within 45 degrees of their front you'd have to have 1 hell of a large unit of skirmishers to move an extra 45 degrees out of charge arc.
     
  15. silent death
    Jungle Swarm

    silent death New Member

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    1st. You declare the charge.
    2.nd the skinks reform
    3rd. You wheel up to 90degree
    4th. Roll 2d6 +M and move the unit the number of inches.

    You cannot declare a charge if the unit is not in the los.
    But in these cases mentioned the unit is within los before you declare the charge.

    As i said, still wishing It wad different
     
  16. SanDiegoSurrealist
    Ripperdactil

    SanDiegoSurrealist New Member

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    example.gif


    @ Silent Death moving 90 degrees before you roll the dice and move would be a reform.
     
  17. BEEGfrog
    Razordon

    BEEGfrog Member

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    You need to be within LOS to declare charge, you don't need to be in LOS when you start your charge move.

    As I am not co-located with the massive tome I can't check to see if the initial wheel to maximise models in contact happens after skirmishers rank up or before so there is a question about this, but not about the need to actually see the target during your charge move.

    If you can wheel far enough to contact the target (see point above for why I don't know whether this is before or after skirmishers rank up) at the point you do the wheel then the only other limit is whether the closest point between the charger and its target is within the charger's move roll. There is no requirement to limit your wheel to the 45 degrees of LOS (note the limt for wheeling is 90 degrees!), if you can reach them then the charge is a success whether or not they were out of sight at some point during the charge move (even if they were out of sight at the beginning of the move).

    In a hypothetical situation where the only model in the unit that can see the charger dies due to a stand and shoot reaction before the remaining models can see the target then the charge still continues. LOS is only a requirement for declaring charges.

    I will be happy to take this all back if someone has a reference that contradicts me, sorry I cannot provide any references due to no access to the book that threatens to break my bookcase.
     
  18. The  Omen
    Saurus

    The Omen New Member

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    BEEGfrog, - you are right as I read it.

    If you try to argue that the unit cannot charge because it can no longer see the unit then your opponant could quite rightly claim that he couldn't declare a charge as the unit cannot be seen (as per the rule book you cannot declare a charge against a unit that you cannot see) - which would mean that the skirmishers don't rank up - which would mean that the unit is in line of sight - which means he can charge - which means the skirmishers rank up - which means the unit is out of LOS so the chargeing unit cannot charge....

    I think you can all see where this is going

    If you can declare the charge then you charge, as long as you roll enough to get into combat - anything else will just get you stuck in a loop that means you cannot progress.
     
  19. Cravenus
    Cold One

    Cravenus New Member

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    what it would do is force your opponent to waste movement wheeling, so it would open your "failed charge range" by abt, but certainly not by much. It would be FAR more useful to just move yourself wholly into his side and avoid the issue all together.
     
  20. Wolf
    Kroxigor

    Wolf Member

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    You can't really waste charge movement on wheeling anymore though... You just measure the two closest points to the units and if they're close enough then you make the move, which includes the potential 90° wheel.
     

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