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8th Ed. 2000 pts Undeath Slann versus Slaaneshi WoC

Discussion in 'Battle Reports' started by Scalenex, Oct 29, 2015.

  1. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I made a fairly casual list built around Undeath to play against @eron12. I expected a 48/48/2 chance of fighting Warriors of Chaos, Dwarfs, or Orcs and Goblins, but if I remembered I currently have the only Dwarf book between the two of us on my shelf, I should have expected Warriors of Chaos. No biggie.

    Eron12 built a list right before we played. Not a hypercompetitive list, but not crazy soft either.

    Army of Scalenex

    Slann, BSB, Banner of Eternal Flame, Harmonic Convergence, Soul of Stone, Lore of Undeath

    Skink Chief, Charmed Shield, Spear, light armor, Ancient Stegadon, Sharpened Horns, Unstoppable Stampede
    Skink Priest, L1 Lore of Beasts

    32 Skinks, poisoned attacks, 3 Kroxigor, FC
    13 Skink Skirmishers, Patrol Leader

    29 Temple Guard, FC, Warrior Bane Sword, Standard of Discipline

    Ancient Stegadon, Sharpened Horns, Unstoppable Stampede


    Army of Eron12

    Slaaneshi Daemon Prince with Chaos Armor, Flight and the Warrior Bane magic weapon, L4 caster with Lore of Slaanesh

    Slaaneshi Sorcerer, L2 caster with Lore of Shadow and Dispel Scroll that was never used
    Exalted Hero with BSB and Mark of Slaanesh, and some mundane weapons/equipment

    Unit 19 Chaos Warriors with mark of Slaanesh and Halberds. No command
    Unit 18 Chaos Warriors with mark of Slaanesh and Halberds. No command

    Slaughterbrute linked to BSB
    Dragon Ogre Shaggoth with either two hand weapons (or maybe one)


    I rolled my spells before I left not wanting to have to pack ALL my undead models. I rolled Rhazkar, Kandorak, Akhar’aran, and a choice. Since I had the three non-signature summoning spells, I opted not to take Ryze (and I didn’t want to pack my zombies and skeletons). I used my choice for Khizzar since I had taken a L1 Skink priest mostly to be an arcane vassal. My Skink Priest took Wyssan’s Wildform

    The L2 Chaos Sorcerer rolled Pit of Shades and Okkam’s Mind Razor. The Daemon Prince got Acquiescence, Pavane of Slaanesh, Hysterical Frenzy, Phantasmagoria, and Cacophonic Choir.

    We decided to use one of our themed terrain sets. We hadn’t tried Naggoroth yet, and Naggoroth is actually a reasonable place for the Warriors of Chaos to meet the Lizardmen being roughly halfway between Lustria and the Chaos Wastes.

    In my lower corner was a raised impassable feature. In the upper center region slightly towards the left was an ordinary forest. In the upper right corner was an ordinary building just on it’s right, with a river of Necrotic Ooze paralleling the short table edge. There was an Altar of Khaine along the center right of the table. In the lower right corner was a wall diagonal towards the long table edge.

    We auto-assumed Battleline in so many of our games, we decided to mix it up again and roll. We rolled a Meeting Engagement. Because we had diagonal deployment zones 12 inches from each other and the diagonal stretch was relatively empty, the terrain was not much of a factor.. I got first set up which meant I had to set up my entire army first, but I was probably going to get the first turn.


    I put the Slann and Temple Guard in the center. Ancient Stegadon on the Slann bunkers left, Ancient Stegadon with Skink Chief on the right (from now on called the Hero Steggy), than the Skroxigor. Skink Skirmishers deployed on the left of the Ancient Steggy with the L1 Beast Priest, aka, Cowardy McCowardson.


    A block of Chaos Warriors (hence forth the secondary Warrior block) stood opposite my Skink Skrimishers and Ancient Steggy. Then there was a wide gap. Then left to right from my view the Slaughterbrute, other block of Chaos Warriors with the BSB and Sorcerer (hence forth the main Warrior block) then came the Shaggoth, then the Daemon Prince. Note my Skroxigor were fairly exposed facing the bulk of the Chaos army by themselves.

    I predictably won the first turn. In hindsight I think I would have been horribly massacred if I didn't get the first turn. I'm not sure Meeting Engagements are well-designed.


    LM 1


    My Hero Steggy successively charged the Slaughterbrute. My Temple Guard wheel around to point towards the flank of the Slaughterbrute/main warrior block and position some more advantageous summoning.

    My Skink Skirmishers swung around to occupy the forest and taunt the secondary Chaos Warriors. If the Chaos Warriors engaged them, they would be Stubborn from the forest and enjoying the rerollable Ld10 of the nearby Slann. Note Cowardy McCowardson the Skink Priest decided that the Skirmishers did not need his help and since the Warriors were fairly light on ranged attacks, thought he’d hang out near the Slann bunker.

    My Ancient Steggy on the left couldn’t easily reach the Chaos main forces so it moved to threaten the secondary warrior block. I accepted that my Skroxigor were doomed, but I positioned them to shoot at the Shaggoth a bit before they died figuring it was a very poison vulnerable

    Winds of Magic were not great. 7 power dice versus 7 dispel dice. I cast Rhazkar to summon a Spirit Host gaining IF with 4 dice. Officially I rolled a Magical Feedback miscast that injured my Skink Priest and failed to wound my Slann. Unofficially the Slann punished the Skink Priest because The Slann hates cowardice. I lost a single power dice, but two power dice is not sufficient against 7 dispel dice. I attempt IF Wyssans and failed. As for the Spirit Host, it blocked the secondary warriors from reaching my Ancient Stegadon, Skink Skirmishers, and the exposed flank of my Temple Guard. Not too shabby.

    Shooting phase went well. My Skink Skirmishers killed a Warrior off the secondary block with Javelins. Then my Skroxigor took a wound off the Shaggoth.

    My Hero Steggy inflicted four unsaved wounds on the Slaughter Brute which multiplied by D3 each and killed it almost twice over. I decided not to restrain the overrun and the healthy 10 inch overrun took my Skink Chief well out of the charge arcs of the other Chaos forces.


    WoC 1


    Skroxigor get charged by the main warrior block and the Shaggoth and the Daemon Prince. I took out two warriors with the stand and shoot. The Secondary Warrior block charged my Spirit Host hoping to kill it with Static CR.

    Winds of Magic were favorable: 12 power dice versus 7 dispel dice. I let Hysterical Frenzy on the main warrior block go through uncontested. Next the Eron12 cast Phatasagoria with 6 dice and I dispelled it with 6 dice. Then he cast Acquiesce on my Ancient Steggy and there was nothing I could do about it with a single dispel die.

    No shooting phase.

    Fight of Skorxigor versus the near entire enemy army: The Chaos Sorcerer issued a challenge, and my Skink Brave accepted the challenge because the Slann hates cowardice. My unit champion died with no overkill. That's the best you can hope for with a Skink Brave. The Daemon Prince went first, inflicting two wounds on a Kroxigor. A modest showing considering he had Frenzy temporarily from starting his turn near the Altar of Khaine. Then the Chaos BSB inflicted two more wounds on the Kroxigor killing one. Then the Warriors (with Hysterical Frenzy) killed seven Skinks. Then the Shaggoth rolls exceptionally well inflicting five wounds finishing off the Kroxigors. The Skinks managed to inflict an unsaved wound on the Shaggoth. Then Thunderstomps killed three more Skinks. The Skinks were in the Slann’s leadership range but I needed snakes and could not pull off a miracle here. The Shaggoth and Warriors ran the Skinks down while the Daemon Prince restrained pursuit.

    Fight of Chaos Warriors and Spirit Host #1: The Chaos Warriors flailed ineffectually at the incorporeal foe. The Spirit Host kills a single warrior, Static CR meant I lost CR by 3, but I was in range of the Slann and his BSB effect so I they only took two wounds (BSBs reduce undead crumble).


    LM 2


    My Ancient Steggy was drunk under the Acquiesnce spell so she ambled forward a few inches. My Slann bunker swift reforms to face the main block now that the secondary Warrior block was nice and stuck in a Spirit Host tarpit. I realized I just needed a regular reform, so I had the TG back up two inches just because I could (that turned out to be a mistake). My Hero Steggy’s victory last turn took him out of position, so he turned around towards the Shaggoth and Daemon Prince. My Skink Skirmishers could no longer shoot at the secondary Warriors so they marched towards the center to hopefully do something useful next turn. Cowardy McCowardson decided that since the Skink Skirmishers were on longer in danger of being charged, he’d rejoined the unit.

    Magic phase saw a poor Winds of magic roll but spectacular channeling made up for it. 7 PD vs 4 DD. I summoned a second Spirit Host blocking behind the first one. That way when the first one died, the warriors would still be stuck. I figured some Hex Wraiths in front of my TG bunker would keep the Shaggoth and Daemon Prince from double teaming the Slann, so I cast Akhar’aran. Once again I rolled IF with 4 dice. My five Hex Wraiths ending up costing me 11 Temple Guard. Officially it wasn’t a miscat. The Slann thought the Temple Guard backing up was a sign of weakness and smote them demonstrably because the Slann hates cowardice.

    Shooting was phenomenal despite the fact that my Skirmishers were out of range and one of my Steggies had drunkenly staggered away from the enemy. My Hero Steggy did not march and the 4 Javelin Skinks on board managed to inflict two unsaved wounds on the poor Shaggoth.

    Fight of Chaos Warriors and Spirit Host #1: My Spirit Host took down another warrior but Static CR killed him. Fortunately I had a backup right there!


    Chaos Turn 2



    The Daemon Prince charged my Hero Steggy. Stand and shoot does nothing. Secondary warriors charge the Spirit Host #2. The Shaggoth moves to flank of TG. Out of position warriors march wheeled to the center.

    10 PD vs 7 DD. He cast Acquiescence on my Hex Wraiths and I let it go even through though it hemmed in my Temple Guard. Then he cast the augmented version of Pit of Shades with six dice and I irresistibly dispelled it with six dice. Now that I was effectively out of DD and my opponent had a couple dice left, the Daemon Prince cast the non-augment version of Cacophonic Choir on my Temple Guard. The damage roll wasn’t too bad and the secondary effects were no biggie since the unit was blocked in anyway.

    No shooting phase.

    Fight of Chaos Warriors and Spirit Host #2: My Spirit Host inflicted no damage than lost two wounds due to crumble. I won in spirit (hah pun!) since the warriors were still pinned in place. Also note, my formerly drunken Ancient Steggy had a charge arc against the flank of the warriors, so my opponent cleverly reformed his line into a conga line to deny me this opportunity by reforming the secondary warriors into a giant conga line.

    Fight Between Skink Chief and Daemon Prince: The Daemon Prince inflicted one wound on the Ancient Steggy docking him an attack with the Warrior Bane sword. The Skink Chief inflicted no damage but the Ancient Steggy managed an unsaved wound against the Daemon Prince in retaliation. I lost combat by one but the Steggy and Skink Chief held. I was still in the Slann’s leadership bubble, so it wasn’t really in doubt


    LM Turn 3

    Note, at this point there was a long conga line of Chaos Warriors right in front of my Skink Skirmishers. Logic says that should have made them easy to shoot at but they were engaged with a Spirit Host in their far corner so I could not shoot into melee. Despite the fact that the Spirit was 1) expendable and more importantly 2) completely incorporeal to javelins! But can’t shoot into melee! Thank you RAW!

    Since my Hexwraiths were hexed, they ambled forward six inches. Behind them the Slann bunker ambled forward four inches. My Skink Skirmishers denied their logical target of the Chaos Conga Cohort marched to get some shots on the Shaggoth with Cowardy along for the ride. My Ancient Steggy marches right to the flank of the Shaggoth. My Hero Steggy is locked in close combat as is Spirit Host #2

    I don’t remember what the power/dispel dice spread was. Attempt at summoning more Spirit Hosts is dispelled. Then I attempted to summon some Black Knights and failed. Then I tried a long shot casting of Wyssan’s Wildform with Cowardy and failed.

    I was positioned to shoot at the Shaggoth with both my Skink Skirmishers and my Ancient Steggy but the Skirmishers alone were able to finish off the wounded Shaggoth soothing my hurt feelings about the magic phase.

    Fight of Chaos Warriors and Spirit Host #2: I inflicted no damage with my Spirit Host. Because of the Conga line and lack of command crew, the secondary warriors had no static CR at all, so this was a draw. Since the Steggy was no longer threatening to charge their flank, the Warriors reformed and abandoned their conga line for more conventional ranks of five.

    Fight Between Skink Chief and Daemon Prince: The Daemon Prince decided to put all 5 attacks into the Skink chief. Four attacks miss, and the fifth was blocked by the Charmed Shield. Apparently Slaanesh hates cowardice. Once more the Steggy sneaks an unsaved wound on the Daemon Prince.


    WoC 3



    Main warrior block charges my Temple Guard in the flank (my flank was exposed by of the Cacophony spell disorienting them earlier). The Daemon Prince and secondary Warrior block are locked in close combat.

    10 PD vs 8 DD. 6 dice casting of augment Cacophony beaten by six dispel dice. A simple casting of Acquiescence failed. It tried for two dice Pit of Shades hoping for IF and failed. Note we had forgotten about the Remains in Play Hysterical Frenzy was up so when we realized that in Turn 4 or 5, we just retconned that the spell was cancelled this phase.

    No shooting phase.

    Temple Guard versus Main Warrior block: Lost several TG, inflicted maybe one wound back. My Revered Guardian died in a challenge against the BSB and died with a bit of overkill. Reroll-able Coldblooded Leadership 10 held as usual. I reformed my TG so their front arc was facing the enemy. The Chaos Warriors reformed to expand their frontage and kill me slightly faster.

    Fight Between Skink Chief and Daemon Prince: The Daemon Prince concentrated all attacks on the Skink Chief. The Skink took a single wound and the Steggy wounded the Prince once more. Apparently Slaanesh really wanted the Steggy dead first.

    Fight of Chaos Warriors and Spirit Host #2: Spirit Host #2 inflicts no wounds, then dies from crumble.


    LM 4

    My Ancient Steggy had the Daemon Prince in his charge arc, but I needed an “8” on the charge and did not get an 8. Not only did I not get to heroically bash the Prince with mighty Impact hits but the Steggy was now extremely exposed to the secondary warrior block.

    Once again Cowardy bails from his Skirmisher bunker hiding behind the TG/CW melee (since if anyone needed Wyssan’s Wildform, it was the outmatched TG). Spirit Host #2 and Hero Steggy are still locked in combat. Skink Skirmisherss move to flank of main warrior block. The Hexwriaths march wheel towards flank of warriors.

    7 PD vs 7 DD. I didn’t fancy my odds of getting spells against even dispel dice, and I had three Raise the Dead tokens so I figured I should go for IF and six dice Kandorakth such unfavorable dispel dice so I six diced Kandorak (hoping for a Terrorgheist) and failed.

    My Skirmishers rolled many poisoned hits, but the Eron12 actually rolled a string of good armor saves for a rare change and avoided all damage.

    Fight Between Skink Chief and Daemon Prince: Daemon Prince used his breath weapon whiffing horribly and inflicting no wounds. Regular attacks did much better, Taking the hint from Slaanesh, the Daemon Prince chose to ignore the Skink chief and focused on the Steggy inflicting three unsaved wounds. Now thanks to the Warrior Bane, the Steggy is down to one attack. I didn’t inflict any wounds but the Hero Steggy stubbornly held its ground.

    Temple Guard versus Main Warrior block: One of the Chaos characters issued a challenge, and my Slann refused costing me the Slann’s leadership, but since I gave the Standard of Discipline to the Temple Guard, not the Slann, they still tested on Ld9. And they still got Stubborn and they still got the BSB. They lost badly but held. The Warriors had killed enough TG to have wasted frontage, but they could not reform to recover their ranks because Cowardy was right behind them, finally doing something useful.


    Chaos 4


    The Secondary Warriors, reveling in the fact that they didn’t have a Spirit Host blocking them, charged my Ancient Steggy’s exposed rear. Everyone else was already engaged.

    9 PD versus 7. Attempt at six dice Cacophony fails. He didn’t bother trying to cast a Shadow spell with two dice against an inevitable six dice dispel attempt.

    No shooting.

    Temple Guard versus Main Warrior block: Sorcerer declares a challenge, with only two guardians my Slann must accept. Last two TG butchered mercilessly, but Slann is unhurt. Slann took a break test at Ld 6 and passed.

    Secondary Warriors versus Ancient Steggy: Steggy loses three wounds then she killed many Chaos Warriors in retaliation, mostly with a spectacular Thunderstomp. I lost combat by a little bit due to static CR but held. The Steggy reformed to move its front arc to the warriors.

    Fight Between Skink Chief and Daemon Prince: Daemon Prince killed the Skink Chief. Steggy was finally out of the Slann’s leadership bubble (since he was on the edge of 12 inches before and the Slann was forced to the front rank.) Steggy broke but DP rolled very poorly with his pursuit. The Steggy’s flight was stopped short by the building but this did not prevent his escape.


    LM Turn 5



    My Hex Wraiths charge the exposed flank of the Chaos Warriors desperate to save my Slann. My fleeing Hero Steggy fails to rally and flees a pathetic three inches. Expecting the Daemon Prince to run down my Steggy and noticing he is on his last wound, my Skink Skirmishers march towards the Steggy to shoot him next turn.

    7 PD v 5DD. I now had more Raise the Dead tokens than I knew what to do with so I summoned two Spirit Hosts to hopefully back up my Ancient Steggy (assuming she lived long enough for the Hosts to charge in. I summoned five Black Knights with barding, lances, a standard, and unit champion as insurance incase the Skink Skirmishers fail to kill the Daemon Prince.

    My shooters were all either fleeing, engaged in close combat, or out of range.

    Secondary Warriors versus Ancient Steggy: Steggy was cut to pieces before I could attack. The Warriors reformed towards my Skink Skirmishers.

    Slann and Hex Wraiths versus Main Warrior block: The challenge with the Sorcerer turns into a pillow fight. My Hex Wraiths kill a Chaos Warrior and the Chaos Warriors can’t fight back against ethereals. Combat was a draw I believe or I might have won by one point. Either way no one moved. The Chaos Warriors were steadfast with a BSB.


    WoC 5



    Chaos Warriors charge the flank of my Skink Skirmishers. In my haste to kill the Daemon Prince with poisoned shooting I didn’t realized I backed them up dangerously between the table edge and the enemy (though I half hoped the Steggy would have held the warriors in place).

    The Daemon Prince surprises me. Rather than running down the nearby fleeing Hero Steggy, it flies behind my Temple Guard. Note by an astonishing coincidence, my Temple Guard, Black Knights, and Spirit Hosts all have their back turned towards the nearby Daemon Prince. I seem to have flyers surprise me with clever moves way too often.

    Eron12 cleary wanted to Caco Bomb me, but a 2 PD vs 2 DD did not allow this, or any other spell.

    Slann and Hex Wraiths versus Main Warrior block: Slann took a wound. Apparently their necromancer toad being wounded gave the Hex Wraiths sympathy pains. They flubbed their attacks.

    Skinks versus Secondary Warriors: Skinks lose five members, break and flee stopping a mere half inch from the table edge. The Warriors chose not to pursue and opted to reform to face my summoned undead and the Slann behind them.


    LM 6


    Spirit Hosts #3 and #4 charge the corner of the secondary Warrior block. I’m sure those warriors are sick of Spirit Hosts by now. My Skinks fail to rally and flee off of the table. My badly wounded Hero Steggy rallies and reforms to face the now somewhat distant Daemon Prince. Cowardy lines up for some magic missle arcane vassal fun. My Black Knights have nothing better to do than wheel towards the exposed frontage of the secondary Warrior block.

    9 vs 6. He dispelled my attempt to cast Khizzar on the Daemon Prince. Clear priority dispel because because had a good chance of killing his general on the spot. Then I try to six dice Kandorak, once again hoping for a Terrorgheist and once again failing the roll.

    Spirit Hosts against the Secondary Warriors: Spirit hosts inflict minor damage and the fight is a draw.

    Slann and Hex Wraiths versus Main Warrior block: No wounds are inflicted at all. With a BSB and flank position I won by Static CR but the Warriors were in no danger of breaking having the BSB in the unit and the Daemon Prince nearby.


    Chaos 6


    Slight repositioning by Daemon Prince. Everyone else is engaged.

    12 vs 6. Six dice attempt at the Caco bomb fails. Six dice casting of Pit of Shades would have succeeded had I not six dice dispelled it.

    Slann and Hex Wraiths versus Main Warrior block: Hex Wraiths kill two Warriors. Slann challenge is a pillow fight.

    Spirit Hosts and Black Knights against the Secondary Warriors: Hosts kill a warrior. No static CR any more but the Warriors don’t break.


    LM 7

    My Hero Steggy charges the Daemon Prince, who being on his last wound and not wanting to face lots of impact hits, flees flying over the main Chaos Warrior block. Cowardy positioned himself towards the Daemon Princes back. My Black Knights charged the exposed frontage of the secondary Warriors. I hoped with their mighty lances I could do enough damage to break or kill the unit and grab the points.

    10 PD vs 6 DD, I cast Khizzar on the Daemon Prince rolling IF on 4 dice for the third time this game. I rolled a beneficial miscast. The Slann inflicted Strength 10 hits on every model in base contact and only enemies were in base contact. The miscast killed three warriors and wounded the L2 Chaos Sorcerer. While the miscast was awesome, the actual spell was not. I whiffed my Khizzar roll and failed to kill the Daemon Prince.

    At this point I had nothing that could shoot.

    Spirit Hosts and Black Knights against the Secondary Warriors: I killed four Warriors and lost two knights, the Warriors held.

    Slann and Hex Wraiths versus Main Warrior block: Slann takes a wound in his challenge, but the Skink attendant managed to kill off the Chaos sorcerer! (note without the miscast this would not have been possible). The Hex Wraiths killed two more warriors. The Warriors held once again.


    Chaos 7


    The Daemon Prince rallied, the rest of the Chaos forces were in melee.

    7 PD to 6DD. Attempted to six dice the Caco Bomb again and failed.

    No shooting.

    Slann and Hex Wraiths versus Main Warrior block: The BSB challenged the Slann and inflicted one wound. The Slann had two wounds left. Had my Ward saves been subpar he would have died. The Hex Wraiths kill two more warriors then their horses get lucky and kill a third. That was enough to drop them below one rank. No Steadfast and a poor roll meant the suckers broke and both the Slann and Hex Wraiths ran down the unit after the BSB auto-died.

    Spirit Hosts and Black Knights against the Secondary Warriors: Spirit Hosts and Black Knights inflict no damage on the Chaos Warrior. I lost two knights, Crumble killed the last Knight and wounded the Spirit Hosts a bit.

    We both killed well over half of the other side. I only had my characters left and all of them were wounded. The now Skink-Chiefless Ancient Steggy was not only badly wounded, but was down to one Attack on his profile due to the Warrior Bane.

    The Chaos Warriors had a unit of Warriors survive—barely. Having been nickeled and dimed by nearly all the products of four separate Summoning spells and a Stegadon they could barely form one rank. Also the Daemon Prince was still alive on his last wound. I got 100 BSB bonus points. And my opponent got 75 bonus points from claiming three standards. The Temple Guard, the Skroxigor, and the Black Knights which in hindsight I really shouldn’t have charged into the Warriors though one can generally afford to be daring with 0 point units.

    It was a draw slightly favoring Eron12. 1296 versus 1240.


    Afterthoughts.

    Very fun game. A draw that was competitive from turns 1 through 6. Both of us had high powered generals. Both us narrowly kept our generals alive. Both of us tried many times to six dice mighty spells and always failed.

    I need to be extra careful with flying badasses. They always throw me for a loop.

    Neither of us made the most competitive list, but I think I was fairly solid. The only things that could have made this list a bit stronger were if I hadn’t half-prepared for Dwarfs. I would have been able to really neuter Eron12’s magic phase if I had Becalming Cognition and a Dispel Scroll.

    I’m not too impressed with the Slaughter Brute, but it didn’t really get to fight, so we can’t really judge its performance. The Shaggoth did some damage during the brief time it was in close combat, but Shaggoths really are an ideal target for poison shooting. The biggest thing that hurt the Chaos army I think was a lack of Standards. The various undead units I summoned would wilted a lot faster if the enemy had +1 CR every fight.

    Undeath continues to be quite fun, and I'm getting incrementally better at using it tactically. We both agreed that this was one of our most dynamic games yet.

    Also, we need to invest in a turn counter. Notes reveal we played 7 turns though we believed we ended on turn 6. I don't know if we doubled turn 2 or double turn 7.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
    spawning of Bob likes this.
  2. airjamy
    Razordon

    airjamy Active Member

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    Seems to be a great game, and a great writeup. Really seeing all the possibility that the enemy has with their flyers remains something that is very hard to do without your own flyers, and especially in the lategame when we do not have that much skinks anymore. I always try to make each point behind my lines as unnatractive as possible by spreading my skinks out and making it so that any flyer would ahve to endure 2 volleys of skink fire if they land. Will not often kill them, but it will hurt them, and that is often enough of a reason to not put the flyers there. In the late game, being fast is such a big advantage because the table is generally empty now,, we just most of the time have a problem if they still have massive flyers then.

    I was also at first weirded out at the 7 turns, but well, as long as you had fun it does not really matter does it. You also got me more interested in playing with the lore of undeath, does having a 3K TK army also work when spawning units? I notice that you only seem to spawn VC units, is that because they are better or just what you have handy?
     
  3. spawning of Bob
    Skar-Veteran

    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    Ideally, Cowardy would have learned his lesson and charged the daemon prince with his sword of feathers in turn 8, and no body would have gone home until there was a result.

    Both the Slann and Slaanesh would have been happy with that.

    Good report.
     
  4. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I think I mentioned we lost count and sincerely believed the last turn was six. It was only when I put the notes together (written in short hand) did I realize
    our collective mistake.

    To answer your question: both.

    When the End Times hit the book shelves had begun making a fledgling Vampire Counts army. I thought "Yes! I start playing them now rather than wait till I have 3000 points done!"

    But play testing (not just me) suggests that Vampire Counts models are slightly better for Undeath summoning.

    When it comes to roadblock units, the Vampire Counts outshine the Tomb Kings. When it comes to killing power, VC and TK are even, but TK seem more niche based and VC seem more generalist.

    Ryze

    Lets look at infantry: 30 zombies beats 20 skeletons for a pure roadblock (mid level Ryze spell). Vampire Counts has zombies and skeletons anyway. With one token you can summon 20 zombies with the minimum level Ryze spell. On the elite end, 10 Grave Guard are slightly better than 10 Tomb Guard because Tomb Guard have to buy more of their gear as add-ons so 10 Tomb Guard need to burn a token to be on that level. Ghouls just suck as summoned units.

    I did some experimenting with Tomb King archers in the past. Because the shooting phase happens immediately out of the gate, you can think of Tomb King archers as a 2 for 1 spell. You get a summoning road block almost as good zombies and you get a magic missile almost as good as fireball. Nasty against chaff, but the results when I tried this was mediocre. It worked okay against squishy elves, but I would not try it against resilient Chaos. Also I doubt I'd bother with TK archers if I rolled Khizzar.

    In the Monstrous Infantry race, Vargheists are the fastest, Crypt Horrors the most resilient, and Ushabti hit the hardest. Usually resilience tops speeds and speed tops hitting power. At least when summoning three or four MI.

    Khizzar

    Vampire Counts just have more options. The best option is Spirit Host, assuming your enemy doesn't have gobs of ways of hitting ethereal enemies. They can block units and hold them for a long time. Most chaff don't even get static CR. 9 Dire Wolves aren't bad. They are like skeleton road blocks that hit slightly harder and move much faster

    Bat Swarms are good if you are fighting Elves to neutralize their ASF. Worthless against all other foes really.

    What does TK have to offer: Carrion. Point-for-point, Carrion will outperform Fell Bats by a slim margin. 3 carrion beats 4 Fell Bats. With one token, you get 5 Fell Bats though. My goal was always to make "Fell Bats" that aren't bats. Zombie Terradons and skeleton jungle birds. Note I haven't found models I like for this, so this way on the back burner. But assuming I ever get there, my undead flyers will be able to pass for Fell Bats or Carrion. And with Legion of Undeath or Lore of Undeath, they will be Carrion, not Fell Bats.

    They also have Sepulcher Stalkers proxies. I brought some in case he played Dwarves or Orcs. Their shooting attack would be nasty against low Initiative enemies. Worthless against Chaos of course and they take two tokens to pull off.

    Kandorak, lesser

    A liche priest costs one token right off the bat. A Necromancer costs no tokens. Cairn Wraith costs no tokens and is ethereal. That trumps any summonable TK character, at least without Nagash augmenting this spell.

    Kandorak, greater

    I have an as of yet unassembled Mantic skull catapult. I look forward to fielding it in my Undead Legions army, but I don't think it's worth summoning.

    No tokens: Early game, I'd love a Casket of Souls and enjoy the bonus power dice round after round. I don't think the Casket would be worth it after turn 2. Late game, I'd rather have the Mortis Engine for a support niche. A Vargulf is a pretty tough monster with a small footprint, beats anything the TK have in this category. Note, I've never seen anyway cast this spell successfully early game. You need to six dice it and most six dice action happens mid to late game.

    Yes tokens: If my main opposition is a large block of infantry, I would want a firebreathing Sphinx. if my main opposition is anything else, I would want a Terrorgheist.

    Akar’aran

    Most eligble TK units here seem lousy. The only vaguely summonable one is chariots and that takes both tokens and positioning. TK Core Cavalry can't do anything Skinks can't do far better. Necropolis knights cost a minimum of five tokens to get on the board. I am lucky if I get 7 or 8 tokens all game.

    When I cast this I usually want Hex Wraiths, because they are fast and ethereal or Black Knights because they are cheap and hit hard on the charge. Summoned units are pretty much spent after the charge round, so that's all you need. Both Hex Wraiths and Black Knights are token-free choices.

    EDIT: Also need to point out Entombed Beneath the Sands. Since summoning spells show up essentially where you want them (within a legal deployment within 12 inches of the caster at least) Entombed Betweened the Sands is worthless. Also, the value of EBtS is included in the points cost of TK models meaning anything you can summon with that rule is by definition over-costed.

    Now if I ran an Undead Legion army and money was no factor, I'd want to buy me some Necropolis Knights and other burrowing baddies. But summoning them? No thanks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  5. airjamy
    Razordon

    airjamy Active Member

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    Seems pretty reasonable and well thought out. I also thought of the addition of especially Ethereal units as very strong, most summons that you do are roadblocks, and there is just nothing like an Ethereal roadblock for the points invested. I mainly think that, without playing it myself, that the Sphinx and the Caskter are worth it when compared to their VC counterparts. The Terrorgheist is faster yes, but if you summon it, it should not really need to travel someplace far. T8 is also really strong against not just infantry, but also against most monstrous infantry. You have S6 and KB you say? Nifty, you still have to roll 6es to wound my Sphinx.. I have always described the Sphinx as a glass cannon of sorts, most units really cannot put a dent in it unless they get really lucky, or you lose it in one turn due to something like 3D6 s2 hits. The casket i would say is not only worth it for the extra PD, but also for the spell and for what happens when it explodes. It could be used as a really expensive roadblock, be it an immobile one(but that is not important if you spawn it where you want it) that does really quite some damage when it dies. Makes me want to try some unorthodox TK spawning, but even with these notions i do see your point why VC are more effective when using the lore of Undeath.
     
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  6. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    If it was just a matter of inflicting and resisting damage in close combat the War Sphinx beats the Terrorgheist. I will not dispute this.

    The thing about Terrorgheists is they can shoot the same turn they are summoned and they can shoot into close combat. T-Bats thus can start doing stuff immediately, and Sphinxes have to wait a turn.

    If your Slann summons a Sphinx to rear charge the enemy unit that is savaging your Temple Guard, you better you hope you have enough TG bodies to hold so the enemy will still be there after two rounds of close combat.

    That's problem A.

    Problem B is where the enemy is not in close combat and simply moves out of the way of the nasty thing you just summoned. T-Bats fly so they are harder to escape.

    Still the first time I was on the receiving end of the Lore of Death, a Warsphinx basically ended me.
     
  7. airjamy
    Razordon

    airjamy Active Member

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    Seems reasonable, i still feel that both have their merits in certain scenario's and that the best option is to own all the models (see what you did there, GW) but since this is impossible it seems to be that the VC are on average the better choice. If i find something completely different when i start playing with my Undeath Slann with my TK models, i will let you know. Maybe even write a little something about it :)
     
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