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40K - Should I .... or not? Where to start?

Discussion in 'General Hobby/Tabletop Chat' started by Aginor, Oct 11, 2017.

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  1. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Very cool indeed!
     
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  2. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Well, yesterday in our gaming store we had a mini 40k tournament.
    3 Space Marines (Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Salamanders)
    2 Death guards
    1 Tzeentch / Thousand sons
    1 Tyranids
    1 Craftworlds

    the 3 SM hold firmly the 3 last positions... it's of little help the fact that my army (Sallies) was the first of the 3 SM, and that the 2 games I losed were against the winner and the second one.
     
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  3. TheSkeptic
    Chameleon Skink

    TheSkeptic Active Member

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    You've got it half right. Orks are.....weird. They're not so much all psykers, so much as they have absurd psychic power as a collective. Ork "Powers" basically rely on belief. If an Ork BELIEVES something to be the case, and enough other Orks share this belief, reality will literally realign itself, in some capacity, to meet the Ork's expectations. For example, most Orks believe that, say, red things are naturally faster then other things. While that doesn't mean that all red vehicles across the universe will suddenly move faster, if an Ork slaps a red coat of paint on his yellow buggy, it will actually move faster then it used to, even if it's functionally the same. Ork "Technology" works the same way. While Mekboyz (Ork technicians) have some technical knowhow from birth, by any sane logic, their machinery wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of actually working. In the hands of an Admech or Tau engineer, most Ork technology would just be a big, useless hunk of metal. But in the hands of a Mekboy, because he BELIEVES that his shiny Deff Dread will work, and enough Orks also believe it will work, it will literally work, despite spitting in the face of all that is scientific and logical in the world. Weird Boyz aren't really Psykers in a controlled capacity. Effectively speaking, a Weird Boy unconsciously draws psychic power from the WAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHH energy of Boyz fighting near him, until that energy eventually explodes outwards in a randomly manifested psychic force. It's sort of like they're vomiting, except they're vomiting fireballs or lightning boots or the giant feet of their gods. While this does tend to vary between fluff sources, since some of it implies the Weird Boyz to be in control of their psychic power, this is the one I prefer. Other notable facts about Orks is that they are, technically, immortal. Unless they're killed in battle (Which happens a lot), Orks don't really die of old age. In fact, they usually get stronger as they get older. The more an Ork fights, and the stronger it's foes, the more size and muscle mass they put on over time. There's a bit of a running joke in the community about an Ork that had fought so many foes for so long that he had managed to reach Planet size, and while no such Ork actually exists in the lore, such a beast WOULD be possible, if an Ork managed to survive long enough. Also of note is the fact that Orks are fungus. Over it's lifespan an Ork is pretty constantly shedding spores, and they release a big burst of them as they die. I'm not sure exactly how long the gestation period is, but I'd hazard a guess at maybe half a decade or two after the spores are seeded, a new Orkoid ecosystem will arise from the spores. An Ork infestation goes like this: First, fungus starts growing, effectively acting as a degree of terraforming for the more advanced life forms to come. Next emerge Squigs. Squigs are a versatile lot, at times attack animals, at time guard dogs, at times winged couriers, and most of the time livestock, and as much more adaptable and closely related to the Orks then their AoS kin, being biologically related to them. After the Squigs comes Grots and Gretchin. These two are basically the goblins of 40k. They're smaller, Orkoid lifeforms who tend to the Squigs and fungus in preparation for the coming of the warlike Orks. They also get shit on a lot, with the Orks eating them when they need a snack, abusing them when they want to amuse themselves by beating on something small and defenseless, and acting as test dummies for creative Painboyz (The Doktors/Mad Scientists) and Mekboyz (As mentioned above, the engineers and technicians), all while quietly going about their business keeping Ork "Society" running by providing foood and supplies. Finally, the Orks emerge, which is usually the point when whatever planet they're on becomes shit out of luck, since the new Orks immediately begin releasing more spores, so if they're killed, then the cycle simply repeats itself. It's why Orks are considered such a nuisance, even though they for the most part lack any coherent organization. I'm also sure you're aware of Gork and Mork, who are also revered by the Orks of 40k for their Brutal Cunning and Cunning Brutality. Orks, if it wasn't obvious, are a constant source of lulz for the Warhammer 40k community at large, and are something of a joke faction.
     
  4. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Thanks for that in depth post!
     
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  5. TheSkeptic
    Chameleon Skink

    TheSkeptic Active Member

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    Crowsfoot answered before, but I'll give a somewhat longer answer to the matter. In the long term, he had actually intended, if memory serves, to have his son, Magnus, sit atop the Golden Throne in his place, being the most Psychically powerful of the Primarchs. However, Magnus (And in some capacity the Emperor) f*cked up. When the Horus Heresy started to kick off, Magnus decided, despite past quarrels with his father, to travel through the Warp, to warn him of Horus's, well, heresy. However, he came to a massive, incredibly powerful wall, which he was unable to pass through. He to some degree sensed this had been constructed by his father, and gave up in his quest. This was when Tzeentch appeared. Tzeentch started to goad him, mocking him for his "Weakness", being unable to break the barrier and by extension being inferior to his father. As Tzeentch mocked him, Magnus' animosity (Which I could write a whole 'nother article on) with regards to his father began to flare up. Then, Tzeentch offered him a deal. He would give him the power boost necessary to smash the barrier, and warn his father. And he did. This was a bad move for everyone but, ofc, Tzeentch. Because the wall that he smashed was a part of the new Webway (A technological marvel that allows one to hollow out a section of the Warp, effectively making it habitable to humans and other races, like the Eldar, who pioneered the technology), that had been built by his father, and in doing so he had let a bunch of Daemons into the Emperors palace on Terra, and ruined something like a decade of the Emperors' work. The Emperor, predictably, wasn't amused. He basically kicked Magnus off of Terra, in fact, and told him to f*ck off, and never come back. It was at this point that he began to serve Tzeentch, and became a Daemon Primarch.
     
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  6. TheSkeptic
    Chameleon Skink

    TheSkeptic Active Member

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    Not got much to do today. I'm tempted to give you one of those for every race, but I feel like that might be a bit overkill. Do let me know if you want one though, would be happy to oblige. Also, people seem to have forgotten to mention the Harlequins, a faction of the Eldar. The Harlequins are basically the servants of Cegorach, the only properly surviving Eldar god, with Khaine in millions of pieces and Isha enslaved to Nurgle. He was basically the god of trickery, trolling, and assholery, and as such he was smart enough to slip into the Webway, and safety, while Slaanesh was OMNOMNOMing his fellows deities. His servants are rather nomadic, traveling around and killing Daemons, helping the Craftworld Eldar out, and generally being fairly cool dudes. They're also somewhat less Xenophobic then the other Eldar, and have interacted with the Imperium at times. They also dress like jesters and clowns, and generally look hilarious in the older editions. Their rank names are pretty silly, like Death Jester.
     
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  7. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Good info, many thanks!
    If you spot other major topics we haven't covered yet, or maybe left out some interesting details about, please feel free to write as much as you want about them! :)
     
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  8. TheSkeptic
    Chameleon Skink

    TheSkeptic Active Member

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    Well, is there anything in particular you'd like to know about? Would be happy to answer. Also, to answer your question, I don't believe that Imperial Guard can be taken as allies to the Tau to simulate Gue'vasa, and they don't have any Gue'vasa units in their forces, so no, there's no options to use Gue'vasa in 8th edition. A few of their auxiliary troops are available for use, such as the Kroot and the Vespid, but their human Vassals sadly aren't counted among them.
     
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  9. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Well, maybe that will change with the Codex they are going to receive soon!

    Anyway, about the T'au: I read that they had some kind of schism/civil war going on, but the articles I read were a bit vague. So a bit more info on that would be rad if there is any.
    As I understood it that Farsight guy either believed or knew that the leading caste did something fishy to ensure their subordinates loyalty and he disagreed and was then outcast and had others follow him?
     
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  10. TheSkeptic
    Chameleon Skink

    TheSkeptic Active Member

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    Well, to provide a bit of context, Farsight was an exceedingly brilliant Tau military commander. He studied directly under Puretide, widely regarded as the greatest hero in the history of the Tau. He's kind of like Sun Tzu, except a Tau. Before he died, he was in fact considered so valuable that scans of his brain were taking, and neural engrams were made to train future generations. This, however, was insufficient for the Ethereals, and with Puretide dead they turned to the next best thing: His most brilliant students. Deciding they were too valuable to have them all serve at once, the Ethereals decided to have them cryogenically frozen, and have one of them serve in a military capacity, while the other two remained frozen, with them being switched out every decade. The three students of Puretide that they decided to freeze were Shadowsun, Shas'o'kai, and of course Farsight himself. Farsight, aong the three, was decided on as the one to serve in the first decade long shift, while the other two were frozen, making him the sole military hero of the Tau empire until he was put back to sleep. He fought in numerous campaigns after, including the Damocles Crusade, when the Imperium attempted to exterminate the Tau (They were forced to call off the crusade when Hive Fleet Behemoth attacked the Imperium, so the Tau won by technicality), and he was selected to head a colonization force, to recover planets lost during the Crusade, along with a trio of Ethereals. While he had to defeat a massive WAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHHH of Orks, which vastly outnumbered his own forces, and was in fact led by one of The Beasts (A very notable Ork character, though a tale for another time), he managed to emerge victorious, despite the massive numerical advantage of the Orks, and slew their Warboss, allowing reclamation to begin proceeding without a hitch. This, of course, was where all the problems started. While he'd defeated the Warboss, and thus broken the force, he decided to pursue the shattered Ork forces, intending to exterminate them, which led him into argument with the Ethereals, who were only interested in reclaiming planets. His pursuit of the Orks eventually led him to a dead planet, overrun by Chaos Daemons. While he did win, and in the process recovered a powerful daemonic artefact blade, as well as strange medallions which seemed to ward off the daemons, which he then used to seal the entrance to the Warp on the planet. However, during the battle the Daemons singled out and killed the three Ethereals who were among his forces. Not, however, before he learned a terrible secret: The Ethereals, whom had been aware of Chaos, Daemons, and the threat they posed, had been keeping these facts from the other Tau Castes, keeping them ignorant to the danger they constantly faced. Horrified by this realization, he began to suspect that the Tau governing body, the Ethereals, were not truly benign, and had only their best interests at heart over the peoples of the other Castes, paying only lip service to "The Greater Good" they themselves propagated. Disillusioned with the Tau leadership, he shut himself, and the planets he had reclaimed, which were known as the Farsight Enclave, off from the main Tau Empire, declaring themselves independent. Farsight later left his battlesuit in a museum, going on to be a hermit, believing that he himself was the greatest threat to the Empire thanks to what he regarded as his own "Subversive" thoughts. He eventually returned to combat, however, over a century later, when the Enclave became threatened by a large Tyranid Splinter Fleet, which they managed to defeat. It was around this time that the main Tau government finally realized that the Farsight Enclave had declared themselves independent. Farsight and his people were branded traitors for this, and he was struck from the records throughout the Empire. So yeah.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  11. TheSkeptic
    Chameleon Skink

    TheSkeptic Active Member

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    Now, as for the schism. I believe you mean the early strife, before the Tau properly formed, so I'll act on that one. Again, to provide some context, when the Tau were first discovered by the Imperium, they were more or less a stone age alien race, whom the Imperium casually decided to exterminate, so they could settle the planet without interruption. Before they could carry this out, however, a large Warp Storm enveloped the planet, cutting it off from all outside contact. Shrugging, the Imperium went about their business colonixing more planets, and labeled the planet lost to Chaos. Within, however the Tau were developing. Their development was fairly straightforward, with a bronze age, iron age, etc. However, there was a significant conflict, which I assume to be the schism you talked about. There were two different "Cultures" of Tau at the time: An agricultural, stationary group of Tau, who lived in walls and cities, the whole shebang. On the other hand, there was the nomadic, kind of Hunnic group of time, pretty stereotypical horse riding barbarian types. So, the two came into conflict, characterized by a siege of a massive city, that lasted, supposedly, for five years. One day, however, two strange Tau appeared. Exuding a quiet authority. One went to the Barbarian camp, and one entered the city. By the next day, the Tau of the city had thrown open their gates, and the barbarian Tau had thrown down their weapons. These strange Tau spoke of a "Greater Good" that all Tau should strive to achieve, and in doing so ensure the prosperity of their species. Inspired, the different tribes of Tau united under this strange new groups. At this point, things fast forward a lot, and we gloss over their technological development. In the modern day Empire, these disparate tribes have assumedly become the four different castes: The Water Caste, or the diplomats, the Earth Caste, or the engineers/scientists, the Fire Caste, or the warriors, and the Air Caste, who eventually became the Space Navy, as well as the couriers of messages between worlds. Finally, there's the Ethereals, whom were the new group of Tau in the distant past. These Tau have become the leaders of the Tau Empire, ensuring that all the castes remain devoted to "The Greater Good". Breeding between different Castes is strictly forbidden to make sure that they remain genetically different from one another. So yeah. I might have gotten the wrong Schism though, hard to say. I don't really keep to up to date on the Tau.
     
  12. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Thanks!
    In fact I was referring to the Farsight Enclaves thing, which strikes me as odd since the Etheral Caste and most of their deeds actually sound pretty good. I mean: In comparison to the rest of the 40k universe.
    So.... are there no Ethereals in the Farsight Enclaves at all? And if yes: can anyone explain how that affects gameplay? I always thought you need Ethereals as support/leaders on the table.

    But thanks anyway for that historical summary. Much appreciated!
    Now the articles I read make a bit more sense to me. They are sometimes hard to read for me because they seem to rely on the reader having some basic knowledge that I don't have.
     
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  13. Captaniser
    Stegadon

    Captaniser Well-Known Member

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    Farsight doesn't like the Ethereals because they are manipulative and hide the truth about the warp and daemonic entities, for the rest of the Tau civilization. The Ethereals are master manipulaters that tell a pleasant lie, and try too repeal the truth, and Farsight belives that it's ultimately harmful for the Tau species.

    Back ind 7th edition, there was a rules supplement for Farsight enclaves. The book detailed much of farsights life and history, and his chosen warriors, The 8. One of the major things about the supplement, was that you couldn't have an ethereal ind your army, but all your forces had a free upgrade that allowed them re-roll morale. The playstyle the book offered was a hit and run tactics, with a butt load of crisis suits. Get close too the enemy, but not too close was the name of the game with that army.

    The Tau empire consider Farsight a traitor of the highest order, but they just seem to ignore him. There hasn't been any conflict between the Enclaves and the empire at all. They even teamed up to fight the Emporium once.
     
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  14. TheSkeptic
    Chameleon Skink

    TheSkeptic Active Member

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    Sorry, was at work. I am unsure as to how a lack of Ethereals would effect the Enclave, as I do not play Tau, but I can say with a fair degree of confidence that there are no Ethereals in the Enclave fluff wise, since the only three who came with Farsight to resettle the planets died on the Daemon World. And yes, as far as shadowy governments go, the Tau have probably got one of the nicer ones, being somewhat more noblebright then grimdark. There have, however, been some other discoveries regarding the Ethereals that put them in a somewhat more sinister light. For one thing, it was discovered that the Ethereals produce a type of pheromone, that apparently allows them to exude a degree of mental control over Tau of other Castes. There has also been evidence implying that the Ethereals are psykers, something Tau were previously though to be unable to produce, a fact they also kept secret from the Empire at large. As such, it seems less likely that the other Tau Castes follow them willingly so much as they are very subtly mentally manipulated by the Ethereals. There's been a few theories put forward as to how the Ethereals can produce pheromones (One particularly credible one involves the Eldar, though the dates are somewhat off for it. Can explain the theory further, if needed.), but none have been properly substantiated by GW. I'm fairly sure that Farsight was unaware of these two facts though, so I don't think they're the cause of the schism between the Enclave and the Empire at large.
     
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  15. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Thanks to both of you!
    Some really interesting info. Since I like the army style wise I will definitely check out the Codex once it is released. Their lore sounds a lot less disgusting than most of the other stuff I have read.

    Ok, now a different topic:
    Do we actually know anything about the Tyranids except that they are presumably coming from outside of the Galaxy and are here to Omnomnom everyone and everything? They are organized in Hive Fleets, and have Hive Minds.
    I'd like to know more about those.

    Why are they organized in fleets instead of just being one big fleet? Also: are the fleets specialized in something? Or does every fleet have everything (unit-wise) and carries out every task?

    About the Hive Minds: does that mean that they get dumber if they are isolated from each other in small groups? And if yes: what's the range for that and how intelligent are single Tyranids? Is there a difference between the big ones and the small ones in that regard?
     
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  16. TheSkeptic
    Chameleon Skink

    TheSkeptic Active Member

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    Well, insofar as how they are organized, and their origins: We aren't entirely aware as to their origins as a species. We simply know that a sort of beacon, known as the Pharos, which happened to be on one of the Ultramarine Worlds known as Sotha, was activated, albeit unwittingly, by an Iron Warriors loyalist marine by the name of Barabas Dantioch, which we can assume was what awakened them from their hibernation in deep space and began drawing them towards our part of the universe. There have also been concerns raised that they were, in fact, fleeing something larger, though if there is evidence of this I am unaware of it. The Tyranid Hivemind isn't quit what you think it is, though you're close. Rather then the collective intelligence of, say, a fleet, the Tyranid Hivemind is the collective hyper intelligence of the entire Tyranid race. The Hivemind's power is such that it's presence casts a "Shadow over the Warp", inhibiting Psykers, Psychic communication, and preventing interstellar travel through the Warp in their area, which makes calling for assistance while under assault from Tyranids exceedingly difficult. Maintaining control over all the Tyranid bioforms in a Hive Fleet relies on "Synapse Creatures", large Tyranids bioforms, such as Hive Tyrants and Tervigons, who act as sort of psychic routers, allowing the Hivemind to control lesser Tyranid bioforms, such as Termagants and Hormagaunts, who are within their range. Some of these Synapse Creatures are also capable Psykers. When outside of Synapse range, lesser Tyanid bioforms revert to an instinctively hostile state, usually attacking anything non-Tyranid that comes near them. There are also creatures who, while not Synapse creatures, can operate for some time out of Synapse range, such as Genestealers and Lictors. To date, there have been three significant Tyranid Hive Fleets, known colloquially as Behemoth, Leviathan, and Kraken, though they have respectively been defeated by the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels and their successor chapters, and a combined force force of Eldar and Ultramarine forces. Behemoth was the first, and probably inflicted the most damage, running rampant in the Eastern fringe of Imperial space and devouring a number of worlds before being discovered by an Inquisitor by the name of Kryptman, who plotted their general course as heading towards Ultramar, the seat of power of the Ultramarine chapter of Space Marines. This was what called off the Damocles Crusade against the Tau that I mentioned earlier, in fact. Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, assembled most elements of the Ultramarine forces on Prandium, one of their worlds, and prepared to intercept the Hive Fleet. This ended.....badly. While the Ultramarines managed to preserve most of their forces, they were forced to retreat off of Prandium, and were finally pushed back to Macragge, their homeworld, for a final defence. This went even worse then before. The Ultramarine forces were ravaged by the arrival of the Swarmlord, a unique, extremely intelligent and tactically minded variant of the Hive Tyrant, who, after facing down Marneus Calgar in combat, chopped off both of his arms, took out one of his eyes, a leg, and his stomach. It was a bad time for the Ultramarines, and they were forced to abandon Macragge, leaving only their Polar fortress at the North of the planet garrisoned. Eventually, they were reinforced by the Imperial Navy, and the battle properly turned in the favour of the Imperium when an Emperor class battleship, an irreplaceable relic of the Horus Heresy, detonated it's Warp Drive, and dragged most of the Tyranid forces into the Warp. Nevertheless, severe damage was inflicted, to put it mildly. The next Hive Fleet, Hive Fleet Kraken, was called to Imperial Space by a Genestealer Brood (An offshoot of the Tyranids that can be discussed later), and inflicted significant loss on both the Imperium, who lost numerous worlds before the main tendril of the fleet was destroyed, and the Eldar, who effectively lost Craftworld Iyanden, with four fifths of their numbers vanquished in the conflict, and smaller tendrils of the Hive Fleet are still bringing the hurt down on the Imperium even today. Finally, there was Hive Fleet Leviathan. Hive Fleet Leviathan was the largest fleet yet, and had it's eyes set on Holy Terra, the home of the Emperor and the cradle of mankind, drawn by The Emperors impossibly powerful psychic signature. Inquisitor Kryptman, whom I had mentioned earlier, began to order extreme measures to stall the Tyranid advance. He began performing Exterminatus on worlds in the Tyranids path wholesale (Exterminatus being a form of orbital bombardment the Imperium performs that purges a planet of all life), and while this did stall their advance, he was kicked out of the Inquisition for his extremely excessive measures, which resulted in the extermination of trillions of Imperial citizens. He also lured a splinter of the Hive Fleet into conflict with the massive Ork WAAAAAAAGGGHHHH in the Octarius Sector, which was a terrible idea, since both races grow stronger the longer they're in conflict and the tougher their foes are, and though the Orks have emerged somewhat victorious (Thanks to the assistance of Ghazghull Mag Uruk Thraka, a notable Ork Warboss), they've emerged far stronger and larger then they have any right to be, and elements of the Hive Fleet have managed to escape, strengthened by Ork genes they harvested, spreading throughout the Imperium. The main tendril was eventually stopped, at great cost to the Blood Angels Space Marine Chapter, who lost several Worlds and were forced to recall their successor Chapters to help reinforce their dwindling numbers until the Hive Fleet was defeated. There have also been implications that Leviathan was merely a scouting Fleet for a far larger, more powerful fleet, that should arrive in the Imperium in the next century, and may require the mobilization of most of the Imperium's military power. There have been a couple other minor Hive Fleets since then formed from elements of these major fleets, such as Hive Fleet Jormungandr, Hive Fleet Gorgon, and notably Hive Fleet Chronos, which remains active and has been building in power quickly by absorbing the biomass of the defeated elements of the major Tyranid Hive Fleets. Each Hive Fleet, generally, has the same basic bioforms, and are all more or less of the same capability militarily, barring differences in size. That said, bioforms unique to certain fleets, such as the Swarmlord, have been known to crop up from time to time, though very rarely.
     
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  17. Captaniser
    Stegadon

    Captaniser Well-Known Member

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    Not much is known about the Tyranids, all we really know is that they're all consuming and come from another galaxy. GW is deliberately trying to make them as mysterious as possible. The first thing that actually encountered the Tyranids was the silent king, the supreme leader of the Necrons. He had banished himself from the galaxy, never to return, until he encountered the hive mind. After that encounter, he knew something must be done to stop them, and returned to the galaxy. The Emporium first encountered the Tyranids at the planet Tyranis, hence their name.

    The Tyranids don't come from one singular point of entry, they arrive from the eastern and southern rim of the galaxy. This leads to the theory that the Tyranids are attacking from multiple, consumed, galaxy's.

    [​IMG]

    Each fleet has it's own tactics and specialization, possibly too deal with varied foes. Also, the different fleets have a tendency to cannibalize each other. If 2 different fleets meet, they will try too consume one-another. This leads to the theory that their are multiple hive minds, or maybe some sort of Darwinism encoded in them, the strong shall consume the weak. One hivefleet, called Hydra, actually hunts other hive fleets.

    Tyranids that are far away from the hive mind will go feral, and act like rabid beasts. But luckily for the Tyranids, they have leader organisms that extrude a synapse that controls them. This synapse controls all the lesser, or dumber, creatures. The synapse makes it so that order are given in and instant and all the Tyranids can work in perfect harmony. But the Synapse has a back side as well. If a synapse creature dies, all non synapse Tyranids nearby will suffer a synaptic backlash, that will leave them bewildered, confused, make them go rabid and kill their own or straight up make their heads explode.
     
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  18. Captaniser
    Stegadon

    Captaniser Well-Known Member

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    Also, if people tell you that they hate the Tau, this picture will more than likely tell you why.

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. TheSkeptic
    Chameleon Skink

    TheSkeptic Active Member

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    Many people are also still salty about all the tournaments they lost to Fish of Fury back in....4th edition, I think it was?
     
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  20. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Ok. So this is not something about recent balance issues but about issues from a decade ago??
    Wow. I don't even know if I should pity those guys or laugh about them... :(
     
    Ritual and Captaniser like this.

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