1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The April Poetry Contest has opened for voting! For more information, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

Tutorial A Cowboy For All

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by A Steaming Kroak, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. A Steaming Kroak
    Saurus

    A Steaming Kroak Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I have been lurking around this site for a little while now, and have enjoyed much of the discussion that has taken place about the new book. I used to frequent TPV for lizard advice, and have played both Dwarfs and Lizards since early 6th edition. When the new book came out I was expecting some big improvements to our monsters, specifically the Carnosaur, as they where what drew me to Lizards in the first place. I was initially disappointed, but I decided to try and make this new list work. I play primarily in tournament play (usually a couple per year), and don't have much time for fun or practice games anymore.

    One of the new aspects that I really like about our new book is the continued strength of the Cowboy. In fact, I feel that that these guys have become better with the new predatory fighter rules. I think that the Cowboys may be what we got/kept instead of massive improvements to our monsters. As I have been doing a lot of theory hammer with the new book, I have been building my own set of notes that, in part, outline many of what I believe the good Cowboy builds are. I noticed that there was no Tactica on Cowboys in the Tactica links, and I decided that I would share what I have been working on to get things started. What I have produced below is the Cowboy builds that I prefer, and the notes that I have taken on each one. Obviously, there are countless options and builds available and I have not reproduced each one. I do think, however, that these are some of the better builds and provide a good number of different setups to help newer players see what is important for a Cowboy build.

    In most of the lists that I have been building I have been including a 5-6 man unit of CoR to act as cannon ball protection for my Cowboys. This is especially true for the Old Bloods who certainly draw a lot of attention. I feel this is an important point to make up front, because Cowboys are more vulnerable to cannons than monsters are due to lower wound counts. They can be protected with a charmed shield for a one time LoS equivalent, but I feel that this does not allow for the optimal builds that can be achieved without this item (more for Old Blood than Scar-vet). They can also be protected with ward saves, but we all know how often those wards fail when you need them.

    I also want to point out that I normally believe that a GW is the best choice for a Cowboy over a halberd due to low initiative of Saurus characters. They should also be equiped with whatever the best defensive setup is. His job should usually be to survive as long as possible, and bring pain to whatever he charges with his str7 GW. There are a few magic weapon setups that I like, and these could be particularly useful for a player who often plays Ethereal filth.

    For those who are not familiar with the uses of a Cowboy, he is essentially the "Swiss Army Knife" of the Lizardmen army. He can be added to any combat to help give you an edge, he can take down monsters on his own (especially the Old Blood), he is probably the best unit this army has to deal with monstrous cavalry, and he can even be setup to deal with large units of infantry all on his own (especially Old Blood with Crown of Command). The combination of good armour save, toughness 5 (6 w/ Stegadon Helm), decent WS, str7, movement 7, immunity to stomp, and either ward save or re-rolling armour makes this guy a pain in the butt for your opponent to deal with. Load up with a couple of these guys and you will enjoy the results. What I like, and what everyone will say, is that there really is not a good opponent for these guys to deal with. Scar-vets bring this in a relatively cheap package, and can usually earn plenty of points back by eating chaff units, cavalry, hunting war-machines, or just helping your main units win where the important fight is taking place. Old Bloods can do these things, but have the ability to withstand much greater punishment. This allows them to go after the toughest units in the enemy army.

    Part of what got me thinking so much about Cowboys was the roster from the most recent tournament I played in had 8 of 32 players playing warriors of Chaos (25% !!). Only one of these armies did not have a unit of Skullcrushers, and only two of them did not have an un-killable Daemon Prince of Nurgle. While Lizardmen do have the ability to chaff many of these units out of the game, a Cowboy gives lots of additional options to kill these units or stall them out of the game. When you also consider the number of Ogre and Empire players with monstrous cavalry, I believe that Cowboys are becoming an essential part of a tournament list for Lizardmen. There are really not many units I worry about charging with a Cowboy (some monsters or KB infantry are off-limits), and even if/when you do lose them they usually have done their job.


    Please note that these builds do take some considerations to my local tournament scene with regards to opponents and comp restrictions. Some of the notes may not apply to your army build or style. These are just the notes with regards to Cowboys from my personal tactica, and it is possible that I may have missed some of your preferred builds.


    OLD BLOOD COWBOY BUILDS:

    1 – Old Blood - CO, GW, Armour of Destiny (4++ ward), Dawnstone (re-roll)
    • Has 25 pts remaining; can take Other Tricksters Shard; best defensive setup of all Cowboys; uses up two good protection items – does not allow for an ideally setup Scar-vet. (Still allows for a good Old Blood w/ Glittering scales and 4++ ward). Very good choice if including only one Cowboy – maybe best choice. Can drop GW for Halberd to allow Slann of 375pts at 2500.

    2 – Old Blood – CO, GW, Glittering Scales (-1 to hit), Dawnstone (re-roll)
    • Good budget setup, can include 395 pts Slann in 2500 game; can drop GW for Halberd to include 400pts Slann; very survivable, especially compared to the Scar-Vet (81pts more than 1+ re-roll SV); can switch Dawnstone to 4++ ward if preferable (+20 pts). This will likely be my auto-include for an army with a Slann; this guy brings so much more survivability than a Scar-vet Cowboy, for only a small amount more.

    3 – Old Blood – CO, GW, Stegadon Helm, Dawnstone, Crown of Command
    • Very well protected against lower str attacks; is stubborn and can hold many infantry units up for long periods on his own; provides impact hits in the first charge to help win combat phase and reduce steadfast/rank bonus. This build brings the Crown of Command to allow for holding of infantry. Toughness 6 prevents most infantry from being able to wound easily.

    4 – Old Blood – CO, GW, Glittering Scales, 4++ Ward, EGG of Quango
    • Good partner for the above Old Blood; good defensive setup, and provides extra combat res/rank busting though the EGG. When combined with the above setup, the Armour of destiny is still available for Scar-Vet BSB (Which you will need due to no Lord points left for Slann).

    5 – Old Blood – CO, GW, Trickster’s Helm, Dawnstone (or 4++ Ward for 20 pts)
    • Very survivable combination; Trickster’s helm provides very good survivability – best results against low strength (4 or less); even better than Armour of destiny and Dawnstone combination at strength 4 or less, and equal at strength 5; does not allow for other useful items such as EGG or Crown of Command. Provided similar protection as Glittering Scales or Stegadon Helm against str 6, worse against str 7. Not likely worth the points; less optimal build than others due to higher cost of Trickster’s Helm.

    6 – Old Blood – CO, Fencer’s Blades, Glittering Scales, Dawnstone
    • Very survivable against WS4 or lower (need 6’s to hit – actually is the most survivable setup vs. other builds, but only against the low WS); in Challenge vs. other characters he will only be hit on 5’s (unless sword of striking, then 4’s); VS a Daemon Prince w/ Sword of Striking, he will give up 0.416 wounds per turn; an Armour of Destiny and Dawnstone will give up 0.345 wounds; he is therefore slightly less survivable vs. nastiest thing going. Has 6 str 5 magical attacks instead of 5 str 7; is not as good against toughness 4 or higher, cannot pierce good armour saves very well, does have magical attacks for Ethereal creatures. Is a bit of a gamble; when fighting lower WS armies or monsters who tend to have lower WS, then this guy is basically un-killable (108 str6 ws4 attacks to take him out – Gutstar counter); when you run into anything with ws5 or better, then the cheaper build with the GW is probably better.

    7 – Old Blood – CO, Piranha Blade, Stegadon Helm, Luckstone
    • Impact hits and multiple would rules should combine to make effective monstrous infantry/cavalry/monster hunter. Fairly survivable with the one time re-roll, although not as survivable as other builds. Probably not the best combo due to less survivability; multiple wounds and impact hits are done better by the Ancient Stegadon. Prefer the next build for Piranha blade; although this combo actually pairs nicely with other builds because it does not use dawnstone/4++ ward/armour of destiny.

    8 – Old Blood – CO, Piranha Blade, Glittering Scales, Dawnstone
    • Combines the survivability of the Glittering Scales/Dawnstone setup with the multiple wounds of the Blade. Less likely to would higher toughness monsters. Although, with the multi wounds and AP he will actually do more total wounds to many monsters and characters. Is very good vs. monstrous infantry and cavalry – will eat Mournfang Cavalry. Could be a very nice addition to the army, as he brings a very survivable character who can deal with multi-wound creatures/Ethereal creatures. Would pair well with a Scar-Vet w/ Armour of Destiny. Only leaves Tricksters Helm/Stegadon Helm w/ 4++ ward setup for an additional Old Blood.

    9 – Old Blood – CO, Shield, Blade of Realities
    • Not very survivable compared to all of the above Old Bloods; can kill 3++ ward w/ Third Eye setup from Chaos. You can get a no armour save sword w/ other tricksters shard for 35pts less; does not wound higher toughness models, probably will have better results from the multiple wound Piranha Blade. Seems very specific; must have ward save to get good value from this item. Probably preferable to choose other setups due to survivability, and in many instances a GW will actually be better (for 94pts less – easier to wound and eliminates most armour).

    10 – Old Blood – CO, Stegadon Helm, Sword of Blood Shed
    • This character takes advantage of the predatory fighter rule by adding an additional three attacks. His toughness 6 protects him from str3 and str4 attacks that can only wound him on 6’s. His impact hits and potential for high number of attacks make him very good at chopping through large blocks of non-elite (goblins/skaven) or non-high str infantry (Phoenix guard or Chaos Warriors w/ shield). Is not as survivable as other builds, and is likely more of a specific tool to deal with low str infantry. Could be useful in a specific match-up against large block/cheap troop wielding army, or as a third Old Blood in a large 3000+ point game.

    11 – Old Blood – Arabyan Carpet, Armour of Destiny, Shield or GW
    • Flying Lord grants extra mobility, and no chance of failed stupidity. Can be stomped, loses defensive capability compared to other Old Bloods. Swapping defence for speed; could be fun, but probably not as optimal as more traditional Cowboy builds. Would not feel confident using him against many of the foes who I see as ideally suited for Cowboys.

    12 – Old Blood – Arabyan Carpet, LA, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Sword of Might
    • Similar to above build; maybe slightly better build for survivability. Uses the enchanted shield which I prefer to use on skink chief w/terradon build. Still think that he would struggle against traditional opponents of Cowboy, and is susceptible to stomp. Maybe useful in a fun build, or for a specific modeling project. Otherwise, will likely see better results from Old Blood on CO. NOTE: Can swap Enchanted Shield for Charmed Shield for better cannon protection, but will lose combat survivability.


    SCAR-VET COWBOY BUILDS:
    NOTE: Can add BSB to any of these builds, although more defensive setups should be preferred for a BSB.

    1 – Scar-Vet – CO, GW, LA, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone
    • Best value setup for a Cowboy; this guy is very survivable and brings str7 pain. If fielding only Scar-vet Cowboy, this is probably first choice. Don’t like that he uses Dragonhelm, prefer to use that item on Skink Chief w/ terradon build. Would normally prefer to use the Dawnstone on an Old Blood; probably would prefer budget Old Blood build w/ glittering scales, dawnstone instead of this Scar-vet. Useful if wanting to field expensive Slann. NOTE: can swap Dragonhelm for Gambler’s Armour if wanting Dragonhelm on Skink Chief

    2 – Scar-Vet – CO, GW, Armour of Destiny
    • This is probably the next most useful Scar-vet build after the first. He gains a 4++ ward instead of the armour re-roll. Very survivable, and is more likely to be included than previous Scar-vet because I foresee often using Dawnstone with Old Blood. This will probably be my BSB build if no Slann.

    3 – Scar-Vet – CO, LA, Charmed Shield, Sword of Might, Dawnstone
    • Good build for running lone Scar-Vet Cowboy. He has same defensive capability of first Scar-vet (1+ reroll), but also has charmed shield protection. Could run him with the Armour of Destiny Scar-vet as a good pair who both have some cannon protection. Don’t like that he has str6 instead of str7. Still, very good option.

    4 – Scar-Vet – CO, Shield, Glittering Scales, Dawnstone
    • Possibly the most protection you can get for a Scar-Vet; could be useful as a well protected BSB, especially in a Knight Bus that grants a LoS roll. Don't like str5, but would only field this option as a pure defensive setup. Prefer this setup on Old Blood with GW, as it is only 72pts more.

    5 – Scar-Vet – CO, GW, Glittering Scales, Dawnstone
    • OK build; however, the 2+ reroll offers less protection statistically than the 1+ 4++, and certainly much less than the 1+ reroll. Probably not the best use of Dawnstone. 1+ reroll is still king, and shouldn’t waste Dawnstone on 2+ armour.

    6 – Scar-Vet – CO, GW, Armour of Fortune, Luckstone
    • Offers very good protection on a character without using the Armour of Destiny, Talisman of Preservation, or Dawnstone. Useful as possibly a third or forth Scar-Vet build in a spam type setup.

    7 – Scar-Vet – CO, GW, Stegadon Helm, Luckstone
    • Offers good protection, although not ideal with only one reroll. Think I prefer the Stegadon Helm on an Old Blood who can be better protected with a ward or re-roll. Would be best used against low str foe to take advantage of toughness 6.

    8 – Scar-Vet – CO, LA, GW or Shield, Talisman of Preservation
    • Gives an additional Scar-vet with 4++ ward. Not as optimal as first two choices, but could be a very solid third Scar-vet in a spam list. Prefer the GW, as str5 just doesn’t bring enough pain to monstrous cavalry or monsters. Still would be very survivable at 2+ 4++.



    OLD BLOOD/ SCAR-VET COWBOY DEFENSIVE BUILDS STATS:

    I ran some basic survivability numbers on the defensive setups of my preferred builds from both the Old Blood and Scar-Vet builds. The final number in the stream is the average number of wound that the character would take vs. those attacks. Please forgive me if the math is not correct. The number in brackets next to the str6 attacks is the number of str6 attacks it would on average take to kill the character. I chose str6 because I feel that it is the benchmark for what you will likely deal with in a worst case scenario. Obviously, str 7 is worse, but it is not very common.

    What becomes very apparent from these numbers is that the Old Blood is much more survivable than the Scar-vet, due to the ability to take an additional level of defence. (eg. -1 to hit from glittering scales, toughness 6 from Stegadon Helm, or re-rolling armour with 4++ ward)


    1 - Old Blood – CO, GW, Armour of Destiny (4++ ward), Dawnstone (re-roll)
    • Vs: 12 str4 ws5 attacks = (12/2= 6/3 = 2/5/6= .33/5/6= .057/2 = .028)
    • Vs: 12 str5 ws5 attacks = (12/2= 6/2= 3/3 = 1/3= .333/2 = .166)
    • Vs: 12 str6 ws5 attacks = (12/2= 6/2/3= 4/2= 2/2= 1/2= .5) (72)
    • Vs: 12 str7 ws5 attacks = (12/2= 6/5/6= 5/2/3= 3.3/2/3= 2.2/2= 1.1)
    • Vs: 6 str6 ws7 attacks = (6/2/3= 4/2/3= 2.66/2= 1.33/2= .67/2= .335)

    2 – Old Blood – CO, GW, Glittering Scales (-1 to hit), Dawnstone (re-roll)
    • Vs: 12 str4 ws5 attacks = (12/3 = 4/3 = 1.33/5/6 = .22/5/6 = .04)
    • Vs: 12 str5 ws5 attacks = (12/3 = 4/2= 2/3= .666/3= .222)
    • Vs: 12 str6 ws5 attacks = (12/3 = 4/2/3 = 2.66/2 = 1.33/2 = .67) (54)
    • Vs: 12 str7 ws5 attacks = (12/3 = 4/5/6 = 3.3/2/3 = 2.2/2/3= 1.48)
    • Vs: 6 str6 ws7 attacks = (6/2= 3/2/3= 2/2 = 1/2 = .5)

    3 – Old Blood – CO, GW, Stegadon Helm (Toughness 6), Dawnstone (re-roll)
    • Vs: 12 str4 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/5/6 = 1/5/6 = .177/5/6 = .028)
    • Vs: 12 str5 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/3= 2/3 = .666/3 = .222)
    • Vs: 12 str6 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/2= 3/2= 1.5/2= .75) (48)
    • Vs: 12 str7 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/2/3 = 4/2/3= 2.66/2/3 = 1.77)
    • Vs: 6 str6 ws7 attacks = (6/2/3 = 4/2= 2/2= 1/2 = .5)

    5 – Old Blood – CO, GW, Trickster’s Helm, Dawnstone
    • Vs: 12 str4 ws5 attacks = (12/2= 6/3 = 2/3 = .666/5/6= .12/5/6 = .02)
    • Vs: 12 str5 ws5 attacks = (12/2= 6/2 = 3/2 = 1.5/3 = .5/3 = .166)
    • Vs: 12 str6 ws5 attacks = (12/2= 6/2/3 = 4/2/3 = 2.66/2 = 1.33/2 = .67)(54)
    • Vs: 12 str7 ws5 attacks = (12/2= 6/5/6= 5/5/6 = 4.15/2/3 =2.76/2/3 = 1.84)
    • Vs: 6 str6 ws7 attacks = (6/2/3= 4/2/3= 2.66/2/3 = 1.77/2 = .88/2 = .44)

    1 – Scar-Vet – CO, GW, DragonHelm, Dawnstone (re-roll)
    • Vs: 12 str4 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/3= 2/5/6= .333/5/6= .057)
    • Vs: 12 str5 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/2= 3/3= 1/3= .333)
    • Vs: 12 str6 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/2/3 = 4/2 = 2/2 = 1)(24)
    • Vs: 12 str7 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/5/6 = 5/2/3 = 3.3/2/3 = 2.2)
    • Vs: 6 str6 ws7 attacks = (6/2/3 = 4/2/3= 2.66/2 = 1.33/2 = .67)

    2 – Scar-Vet – CO,GW, Armour of Destiny (4++ Ward)
    • Vs: 12 str4 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/3= 2/5/6= .333/2= .166)
    • Vs: 12 str5 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/2= 3/3= 1/2= .5)
    • Vs: 12 str6 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/2/3 = 4/2 = 2/2 = 1)(24)
    • Vs: 12 str7 ws5 attacks = (12/2 = 6/5/6 = 5/2/3 = 3.3/2 = 1.65)
    • Vs: 6 str6 ws7 attacks = (6/2/3 = 4/2/3= 2.66/2 = 1.33/2 = .67)



    After I considered all of these numbers, and looked at the different builds, I still tend to prefer the '"budget" Old Blood with Glittering Scales, GW, CO and Dawnstone. At his point value, he can still allow you to take a fairly tooled up Slann, and you therefore don't need to really sacrifice much when it comes to your Lord selections.

    Let me know what you think, and whether there is something important that I have missed.
     
    Wazz, Lizardmen!! and Scalenex like this.
  2. lbisson
    Cold One

    lbisson New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Being fairly new to fantasy, this was an excellent read. I really like how you point out what you would target with the builds.

    In my local club I have a bunch of tourney players that I play against, while they are prepping for the real thing. Needless to say I get schooled very quickly against them. Have you posted any of your tourney builds with notes how you use the units? That would go a long way helping us beginners figure out our way.

    Thanks for the writeup.
    Len
     
  3. Wallice
    Skink

    Wallice New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Great thread! Love the statistics too, they're a great addition.

    I used a Steg Helm Scar-Vet to great success the other day
    Scar-Vet, CO, Steg Helm, LA and GW
    Used him in a 5 strong unit of CoC killed an Elf Prince on a Griffon (little bit of luck with impact hits, but still)
     
  4. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

    Messages:
    611
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Just a note on the flying carpet old blood. He can take a 4+ look out for being near infantry units of 5 or more. He's more of a scalpel than a cowboy.

    The only issue I've got with the cowboy builds is how many of them use the dawnstone. That doesn't leave a lot of options for the 2nd or 3rd cowboy. The build for 1 cowboy is very different than when building for 3, or even 4 (I'm running 3-4 cowboys with 2 priests and 2 flying chiefs).

    -Matt
     
  5. Dreadgrass
    Ripperdactil

    Dreadgrass Member

    Messages:
    464
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Does anyone rate running the Sword of Antiheroes?

    Would probably be as a 2nd or 3rd cowboy, but on an Oldblood could be run with Glittering Scales/Steg helm and Dawnstone/wardsave talisman. The cheaper options would even allow for OTS or Potion of Strength (or even Potion of speed + have a Bastiladon nearby to strike with I7!) and a glittering scales + Wardsave build would keep your Dawnstone available.

    On A Scar Vet, the best I've come up with off the top of my head is CO, Sword of AH, L. Armour, Charmed Shield, Opal amulet. Gives a 1+ and 2 good 1 use saves (which for a 2 wound character that's built to kamikaze enemy heroes is probably sufficient) that can also catch cannonballs rather well.
     
  6. A Steaming Kroak
    Saurus

    A Steaming Kroak Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    @Ibisson:

    I have not had the chance to play the new book in a tournament yet, so I don't have a particular list to give you. The biggest change for my previous style of play has to do with the skrox units. I have been filling my core with skink skirmishers and skrox units since 7th edition (even when they were not ideal in that edition). I prefer them over saurus for the higher movement. Now that they have been nerfed, I really am struggling to figure out an optimal setup for core. I have been trying a 30 man block of spear saurus, and 4 units of 10 skink skirmishers. I must admit, however, that I am missing the speed with which the skrox can bring rank bonus to a combat or area of the table.

    If you are looking for tactical advice, check out the tactica link page. There is some really good information there. Also, check out the link below.

    http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=33028

    I found it in the tactica, and it really does outline the ideal ways to use your small chaff-like units. Your skirmishers, lone salamanders, terradons, and lone skink chiefs on terradon can all act in a very similar manner (or identical for the skink chief on terradon) as the great eagle. A player who knows how to use the G. Eagle (or Lizard equivalent) can often win a game with those units. It has happened to me at a tournament where a Wood Elf player (who won best overall) was able to keep my Temple Guard effectively out of combat for the game. I have personally been trying to run two Skink Chiefs w/ terradon to try and emulate these specific G. Eagle tactics. I set them up as follows:

    Skink chief, Terradon, spear, shield, LA, dragonhelm
    Skink chief, Terradon, spear, LA, Enchanted shield, dragonbane gem

    I set them up this way so that they both get a 2+ armour, 2++ ward vs. flaming (useful against magic missiles), and have a good charge with the spear. They both cost less than 100pts, and seem to be very good for their cost. They also have the same rules attached to each model, and that way I don't forget which one has what rules (this kind of thing is very useful in tournament play - too many times a magic item or special rule is forgotten by a player).

    If you combine these guys with a few of the other cheaper units (mainly skirmishers), then you can easily take tactical control of the table with more units and more movement. Once you block off enemy units with these cheaper units, you can then pick your fights with your mobile "hammer" options in your list (Cowboys, Stegs, and skrox or krox). They only thing left to do is to understand the strength of each of the enemy units, and to know which ones to fight and kill and which ones to avoid and delay with your cheaper units. This last part comes with experience, and keeping a fairly good working knowledge of each army (this can be done by reading other army forums and talking to opposing players about what they like or don't like in their army and why).



    @Matt

    I actually like the idea of a flying Old Blood, but I do think that many of the targets he would likely go after with his flying ability can be hunted by the two Skink Chiefs w/ terradon that I outlined above. He uses up half of his item allotment to gain the extra mobility, and he then loses the ability to take the one extra layer of protection that is found in most of my preferred Old Blood builds (-1 to hit, Tough 6, 4++ ward and re-roll, etc). This extra layer of protection is what makes these Cowboys stand out from Scar-vets, and enables them to go after nastier targets. The current meta is shifting towards large numbers of monstrous cavalry backed by fast heavy hitters. Infantry is often only being fielded by players as a way to fill core. The Old Blood Cowboy is immune to stomp attacks, he can go after Chimeras, or Frost Phoenixes and do fairly well (Phoenixes -1 str is a good reason to choose GW over Halberd on Cowboys). Without the immunity to Stomp, I feel that you may be essentially spending 3x the points to fulfill the same role as a chief on terradon. Both will kill fast cav, skirmishers, shooting units, artillery, and lone wizards (I rarely actually see these guys unless on a Disc w/ 3++ ward save). The Old Blood will obviously be better at the hunter role, and can even be relied on to go after larger infantry blocks in the flank or rear. You will, however, lose the ability to hold a Daemon Prince up for 3-4 turns and you would likely still kill all of the lighter units anyways with your Chiefs and skirmishers.

    I agree that the Dawnstone is the best item for Cowboy builds. There is no way around that. The Armour of Destiny and the Talisman of Preservation both offer very good protection, and can be combined to make three really hard characters. If you want to spam cowboys, try Scar-vets #1,2,6, and 8. You should be able to just fit all in at 2400pts. I think that is a pretty good setup for Cowboy spam, and still lets you bring a nasty Slann.
     
    Lizardmen!! likes this.
  7. lbisson
    Cold One

    lbisson New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sweet! Thanks for the tips!
     
  8. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

    Messages:
    611
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Tricksters Helm is pretty good too. Forcing an opponent to re-roll to wound can be awesome.

    -Matt
     
  9. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,596
    Likes Received:
    1,699
    Trophy Points:
    113

    To make the Sword worthwhile you need a reasonable expectation to fight multiple characters at once.

    I wouldn't use the Sword of Antiheroes in an All Comers List but I'd use it against the Vampire Counts. It seems like a good tool to use against the dreaded "Wraith Wall". It might help against deathstars loaded with characters but I only have experience with VC herohammer. Might also be handy on Orc and Goblin lists. Both my O&G opponents favor deploying characters in pairs, one fighter one caster in each major block.
     
  10. Tecuani
    Saurus

    Tecuani Member

    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I don't think you need to be fighting multiple characters to make the sword of anti-heroes worth taking, it just becomes stupidly overpowered if you are. For its points cost, however, it's good value against one character and very powerful against two. It's only bad against no characters at all, and even then you haven't wasted many points on it. Definitely worth taking, espescially on a mounted character who has the mobility to seek out characters.
     
  11. A Steaming Kroak
    Saurus

    A Steaming Kroak Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Against one character you do get a point savings on the cost of the item (5pts). If you need a character assassin it could be used with Glittering Scales, Dawnstone, and the Other Trickter's Shard on an Old Blood. The problem with this item is that it forces your Cowboy into a specific role and may encourage putting this guy into a bad situation just because of that role. Against one character, i'm not convinced that this weapon is better than a GW. The GW also works against everything, giving you more flexibility to use this character against whichever unit you think is bigger threat. If you need to stop a monster from rampaging through your lines, then you don't really want the SoAH. If you have a specific enemy in mind (Goblin Big Boss Spam) then this might be a really good build, but it lacks the flexibility desired in an all comers list (IMO).
     
  12. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    "9 – Old Blood – CO, Blade of Realities
    • Not very survivable compared to all of the above Old Bloods; can kill 3++ ward w/ Third Eye setup from Chaos. You can get a no armour save sword w/ other tricksters shard for 35pts less; does not wound higher toughness models, probably will have better results from the multiple wound Piranha Blade. Seems very specific; must have ward save to get good value from this item. Probably preferable to choose other setups due to survivability, and in many instances a GW will actually be better (for 94pts less – easier to wound and eliminates most armour)."

    Following on from your suggestion, how about this...

    Old Blood – CO, Obsidian Blade, Charmed Shield, Dawnstone, OTS

    I know strength 7 will at best leave an opponent with 5+ rerollable, but people can roll a surprising amount of 5+'s when they need to. He's also less susceptible to being "nerfed" through effects which reduce his strength, since even if he's lowered to strength 4 or 3 he still will be negating armor if he manages to wound.

    Charmed shield only if you don't have a better place for it, might as well though since it is close to the cost of a regular shield. So obviously this guy is all about cutting through any and all saves thrown at him, but without leaving him as vulnerable as with BoR? I really like the odds of this guy against most other characters, minus of course killing blow things.
     
  13. A Steaming Kroak
    Saurus

    A Steaming Kroak Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8

    I like it much better than the BoR build. He is much more survivable, and will have almost the same effect on multiple save characters or monsters. If only you could give him flaming attacks...

    I think that a Giant Blade with Dawnstone, OTS and shield would be better. It would wound almost everything in the game on a 2 with a -5 armour save, and force a reroll on successful saves. It basically would achieve the same function as your version, but would have an easier time of wounding big nasties.
     
  14. sorrowquin
    Cold One

    sorrowquin New Member

    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Can we have a sticky on this?

    I think it's a very good article and hate having to search for it every now and than..
     
  15. A Steaming Kroak
    Saurus

    A Steaming Kroak Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I believe its linked under the 8th Edition Tactica Index. Look for Old Bloods and Scar-vets section.
     
  16. bugleboy
    Jungle Swarm

    bugleboy New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I noticed that on to some of these builds a note was added saying they would be suitable for the BSB (assuming that it isn't on the slann), but on page 86 of the Lizardmen army book it says the following:

    "A Saurus Scat-Veteran or Skink Chief that carries a magic standard cannot have any other magic items".

    So ss it safe to assume that the benefit of a tooled up scar vet outweighs having a magic standard on the BSB?
     
  17. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,596
    Likes Received:
    1,699
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, a survivable BSB usually beats a magic BSB many times over.

    Also, welcome to the forum!
     
  18. Rhodium
    Kroxigor

    Rhodium New Member

    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    2 – Scar-Vet – CO, GW, Armour of Destiny
    • This is probably the next most useful Scar-vet build after the first. He gains a 4++ ward instead of the armour re-roll. Very survivable, and is more likely to be included than previous Scar-vet because I foresee often using Dawnstone with Old Blood. This will probably be my BSB build if no Slann.

    At a tournament at the weekend, the above scar vet build was charged by 20 black orcs, then along with iceshard blizzard support he proceeded to kill ever single one of them over 6 rounds (3 game turns) without even taking a wound. They were steadfast leadership 9 so didn't go anywhere and the scar vet ripped through them. The OnG player did not expect him to be so durable and Survuve his charge

    After killing them all during my turn, I reformed to face a goblin bunker, then in opponents turn a doom diver struck him and killed him outright! That is how you deal with a scar vet, not charge 20 black orcs into them
     
  19. Prof
    Saurus

    Prof Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Found this really useful, and nice to have multiple build options in one place to check out.
    Thanks for the hard work!
     
  20. Putzfrau
    Troglodon

    Putzfrau Member

    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Exactly :depressed:
     

Share This Page