Hey y'all! I want to use this thread to talk about balance between Seraphon and other armies. My examples will be my friend's current army and the armies we both are planning to build to play vs. each other. Se here's our story until now: - We both had no idea of AoS, we chose some armies, mainly based on looks. - He got the Greenskinz box and a Bonesplitterz Wardokk. I got the Seraphon box and a Starpriest. - In the beginning, playing just 500 points or so he mainly won, but was still thinking his army (or parts of it) were quite weak. He was right, the chariot and normal Greenskinz except the Warbosses (Waagh! rules) are not very good, the Boar boyz are mediocre, while I had a Troglodon munching him and some Knights who can do severe damage when they have a bit of luck. - I got some Skinks and kitbashed a Skink Chief. That tipped the balance EXTREMELY. - Bastiladon was even worse. I can't recall a game in which he was actually able to kill him when it mattered. - He got some Bonesplitterz Savage Boarboyz, fast cavalry with many wounds, good against monsters, to kill my stuff. - I got Salamanders, Razordons, and some more Skinks. - He got the Aleguzzler to have something huge to break my lines, unfortunately that one sucks most of the time. When he doesn't he is great, but yeah... very random. - The problem now was: With the Orruks' bad Bravery, my banners and the Troglodons anti-bravery ability the following happens: when I am able to kill half of them the rest usually runs away. I block with a few monsters and my Skinks make pin cushions of his units. - The rerolls of my new Astrolith Bearer hit him very hard. Combined with my new Balewind Vortex it gets even worse. I used it once and never again because he almost flipped the table when I did. - he got some scraplaunchers, the idea behind that was to get to my Skinks, forcing me out of my turtle formations. Turns out those suck as well. IF they hit they do TONS of damage to my 40-Skink unit. the problem is: They usually don't. - I got Terradons. Those are not THAT reliable either but combined with the Skinks as a Shadowstrike they rule. - I got a Slann but used it only once. Not worth it. Also got a Priest, but meh. - At this point he was so annoyed, he went into the GW store and whined to everyone how a damn progamer was cheesing him all the time. (I know that sounds bad but he is a good guy, just sometimes a bit competitive. I am not angry at him) They laughed and basically said: "Your army sucks. Get Ironjawz and you will kill him". So he got a Ironjawz box, two more boxes of Ardboyz and a Maw-Krusha. - Turns out a horde army and a huge model like the Maw-Krusha are not easy to play, they are standing in each other's way all the time and so on. Shadowstrike can really ruin their day. Which it did. - I got a Stegadon. Another OP unit according to him. - Now he got a Weirdnob Shaman and two boxes of Brutes, slowly phasing out all of his older units. First the Greenskinz, now the Aleguzzler and the Bonesplitterz. The scraplaunchers will be phased out last, as soon as the Brutes are finished I assume. So now he still plays mixed Destruction but he transitions to pure Ironjawz. With the mixed army it seems he cannot win against me. All those models look awesome and he had fun painting - and to a certain degree - playing them, but the only time he is able to win is when I allow him to put 20% more points on the table than I do. At +10% or at same points he hasn't won a game in months. I introduced a handicap system to our games that works this way: If you lose you can bring 10% more points next time. If you lose again you get 20% more points next time. If you win you lose those 10% again. We are alternating between 10% and 20% bonus for him, but he has even lost at least one 20% game and struggled in others, both because of bad luck and strategical errors, but he is convinced that my army is just stronger than his. He is not content with winning games at 20% advantage, those still feel like losses for him. He is a much more competitive person than I am, but the synergies in my army work in a way that he can't compete yet. Playing against him (we play almost every friday, this friday will be our 15th game) even slowly stops being fun for me because he is whining all the time about my army being far too OP, but letting him win intentionally would be unsportmanslike and I am SURE he is doing something wrong because I see Ironjawz in the top20 of tournament lists all the time while Seraphon are nowhere near that level of power IMO, with Order allegiance abilities being crap for us, while Rampaging Destroyers is AWESOME for Ironjawz and mitigates their only real weakness (lack of speed). Battleplans and the introduction of terrain made it even worse. We played both objective holding and that comet thing and he did barely win one (with 20% bonus) with my Skinks being nimble and my Bastiladon being just too good in defense. I think his preferred fight would be an open field, he thinks that everything else favours my army and I tend to agree now. I see that as boring. I am pretty sure he will win in the future, as soon as his pure Ironjawz 2000pt list is complete. And I will probably be where he is now, losing all the time except when sniping his heroes with a Shadowstrike. What annoys me most is probably that the Ironjawz are a "one trick pony" that only has one viable strategy, and I have only one tactic against it, so I fear all the fights will be identical and whoever has some luck wins. He originally wanted to avoid that by playing mixed Destruction, adding some variety in possible tactics, but he is now sure that he will never win against my "OP cheese" without playing a very competittive, streamlined list himself. He even thought about getting Beastclaw Raiders even though he hates their look, just to be able to win. I had a hard time talking him out of doing that. With the rampaging destroyer buff and the weirdfist bataillon with its crazy strong Weirdnob Shaman (in our last match he sniped all my heroes in one round) I am not sure if there is anything I can do to stop him, so this in turn causes me to be a bit sad. I'd love to be on equal terms between our armies, but I don't see how that could work. If he plays a competitive list I am toast, if he doesn't then he is toast. But as said above, the much sadder thing is the lack of variety we seem to run into. I have played different lists now, I played Thunderquake, Shadowstrike, and Firelance Starhosts, but not even the IMO more "cheesy" ones (Eternal combined with Chameleon Shadowstrike, Rippers instead of my Terradons, double Basti) and none of them felt invulnerable or OP to me. The only possible exception is mass Skinks+Astrolith Bearer+Skink Chief. He convinced me it is cheesy so I feel bad playing it. Those 40 Skinks hit on twos, rerolling ones. They are strong, I give him that. But the Astrolith is static and the Skinks only have 16" range and suck at melee. Not that OP IMO. If I compare any of them to Stormcast, Sylvaneth, FEC, Ironjawz or Beastclaw Raiders or Kunnin' Rukk I still really don't think I am cheesing him. I don't even have some of our potentially strongest units (Kroak, Guards, Rippers, Eternity Warden, Starseer). I will most likely have to get them to have any chance in the future. I don't know. I am not looking forward to it much because I love my little Skinks. But if he goes full competitive I will need more options. Example army that won last week: Allegiance: Destruction Leaders Orruk Warchanter (80) Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (520) Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120) Wardokk (80) Orruk Warboss (140) - Boss Choppas Orruk Warboss (140) - General - Great Waaagh Banner Battleline 10 x Orruk Ardboys (180) - Ironjawz Battleline 10 x Orruk Ardboys (180) - Ironjawz Battleline 3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (180) - Ironjawz Battleline 10 x Savage Boarboyz (240) - Bonesplitterz Battleline Units 1 x Grot Scraplauncher (140) 1 x Grot Scraplauncher (140) Behemoths Aleguzzler Gargant (180) Battalions Ironfist (60) Total: 2380/2000 ...to be continued, stand by.