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KoW Basing in KOW

Discussion in 'Salamanders Discussion' started by Warden, May 30, 2017.

  1. Warden
    Skar-Veteran

    Warden Well-Known Member

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    Greetings fellow lizards.


    I have a few questions about how basing works in KOW, but I will jot down what I know first:

    Individual Model Base Sizes.

    Normal infantry- 25 mm square base (size of a saurus/orc base)
    Large infantry- 40 mm square base (size of a kroxigor/ogre base; some are larger)
    Cavalry models- 25x50 mm (size of saurus cav/bretonnian knight base)
    Monsters and war engines- 50 mm square base (this is only about half the size of a stegadon base because it is so long)

    Heroes fit on relevant base sizes.

    Common Unit Base Sizes

    I am just going to stick with infantry and cav for simplicity sake:

    Infantry (25mm)
    Troop (10 models in a 5x2 formation- 125x50mm)
    Regiment (20 models in a 5x4 formation- 125x100mm)
    Horde (lots of models, not sure how many, maybe 50?- 250x150mm)​

    Cavalry (25x50mm):
    Troop (5 models- 125x50mm)
    Regiment (10 models in a 5x2 formation- 125x100mm)
    Horde (20 models?, not sure what kind of formation- 250x100mm)​


    Here are my questions:

    1) Total Base sizes- I am trying to see if the bases I have would currently fit into a KOW match as well as a standard 8th ed warhammer game. My movement trays make a standard saurus-infantry regiment (which would normally be just 100x80mm) about 2cm~ longer on each side, making the unit actually around 140x115mm (i just measured one of my 5x4 units). Would this get me into trouble, as in should I consider making smaller movement trays or movement trays that don't increase the size of the overall unit?

    2) Man-sized infantry- What about smaller infantry like skinks or normal man-sized models, as in smaller than standard saurus? In looking at my skinks they are all mounted on 20 mm bases, how big of an issue is this during a KOW match? Or does KOW actually take this into account and I didnt realize it.

    3) Skirmish multi-bases- One of the ways I have thought about fixing the above skink problem is mounting them on a multi-base, big enough to support a "troop" sized element. Is this possible? I was thinking of making a "broader" multi-base, with each of the individual skink models not actually touching each other, leaving room for swampy-terrain in the middle.

    4) Do skinks still skirmish- Do the skink-version in KOW (geckos i think?) still skirmish in the rules, as in they move in a scattered/loose formation across the battlefield?

    5) The Stegadon- is it an issue that the square warhammer stegadon base is so long (50x100mm instead of 50x50mm)? It would be the same issue with the carnosaur and the troglodon I believe.

    6) Bretonnian Lance Formation- Shifting focus from the Lizardmen and turning to Bretonnians, how do their cavalry bases work. In the old warhammer 6th ed rules, the "lance formation" meant they would fight in rows of 3 instead of the traditional rows of five, resulting in very long columns of charging knights. Does the KOW Bretonnian variant take this into account, or in the event I play a KOW game will I have to reorganize my knightly units into rows of 5 instead?

    This is what I was thinking doing some quick calculations, using the old Bretonnian lance formation:

    Bretonnian Lance Formation- Cavalry (25x50mm):
    Troop (6 models in a 3x2 formation- 75x100mm)
    Regiment (9 models in a 3x3 formation- 75x150mm)
    Horde (12 models in a 3x9 formation- 75x200mm) this seems a bit small for a horde though, maybe another one at 15 models?

    Like I said I am curious how easy it would be to use the models/movement trays I currently have in my collection in a KOW battle, because they are currently built with 8th-ed warhammer rules in mind. Any expertise would be very helpful and appreciated! :bookworm:
     
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  2. Crowsfoot
    OldBlood

    Crowsfoot Well-Known Member

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  3. Itepixcauh
    Ripperdactil

    Itepixcauh Well-Known Member

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    1) Total Base sizes- I am trying to see if the bases I have would currently fit into a KOW match as well as a standard 8th ed warhammer game. My movement trays make a standard saurus-infantry regiment (which would normally be just 100x80mm) about 2cm~ longer on each side, making the unit actually around 140x115mm (i just measured one of my 5x4 units). Would this get me into trouble, as in should I consider making smaller movement trays or movement trays that don't increase the size of the overall unit?

    Base sizes for units should be precise, a small lip on the movement trays is acceptable but its better to keep it as small as posible. mine are 5 mm wide.

    2) Man-sized infantry- What about smaller infantry like skinks or normal man-sized models, as in smaller than standard saurus? In looking at my skinks they are all mounted on 20 mm bases, how big of an issue is this during a KOW match? Or does KOW actually take this into account and I didnt realize it.

    Yes, unless stated in their profile, basic infantry size bases are 20x20, Salamanders (the unit) are an exception actually

    3) Skirmish multi-bases- One of the ways I have thought about fixing the above skink problem is mounting them on a multi-base, big enough to support a "troop" sized element. Is this possible? I was thinking of making a "broader" multi-base, with each of the individual skink models not actually touching each other, leaving room for swampy-terrain in the middle.

    I do that actually for my hunters so I only put 6 on the base.

    4) Do skinks still skirmish- Do the skink-version in KOW (geckos i think?) still skirmish in the rules, as in they move in a scattered/loose formation across the battlefield?

    No, skirmish as such does not exist in any form in KoW. A new rule was developed to represent that in the Historical version of the game but they are still in the same sized bases.

    5) The Stegadon- is it an issue that the square warhammer stegadon base is so long (50x100mm instead of 50x50mm)? It would be the same issue with the carnosaur and the troglodon I believe.

    The stegadon or bastiladon actually have a unit to represent them in KoW with the proper base size 50x100. The Ankylodon.


    6) Bretonnian Lance Formation- Shifting focus from the Lizardmen and turning to Bretonnians, how do their cavalry bases work. In the old warhammer 6th ed rules, the "lance formation" meant they would fight in rows of 3 instead of the traditional rows of five, resulting in very long columns of charging knights. Does the KOW Bretonnian variant take this into account, or in the event I play a KOW game will I have to reorganize my knightly units into rows of 5 instead?

    Yes cavalry units are ALWAYS in either:

    Troop: 125x50
    Regiment: 125x100
    Horde: 250x100

    People usually fit the models in the regiment base in a lance formation inside the base in avery 5th edition style, for example:


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  4. Itepixcauh
    Ripperdactil

    Itepixcauh Well-Known Member

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    BTW don't bother with Hordes of Knights, trust me they are not worth it. Very easy to counter and block, and once blocked they will die and take a huge chunk of your points with them.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  5. Warden
    Skar-Veteran

    Warden Well-Known Member

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    Thank you @Crowsfoot and @Itepixcauh for the very detailed information, all of it was very clear. It seems that most of the setup I have would work fine for a casual game easily enough, and though I have never been to an actual tournament I am not to worried about making minor tweaks just yet.

    The Bretonnian piece makes sense, I never figured a horde of knights would be effective anyway. I do like the lance-picture, I had forgotten about how the 5th-edition style looked, that would be easy enough for me to create based on my previous movement-tray experience.

    Thanks for the help!
     
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  6. Jack Trowell
    Cold One

    Jack Trowell Active Member

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    Hey I recognize the tower, I still have the same one ! ^_^

    I have been thinking off suggesting my friend with a bret army to try a pseudo lance, nice to see that it looks good.
     
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  7. Warden
    Skar-Veteran

    Warden Well-Known Member

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    So I was looking at these minimum base sizes for a KOW multi-base to try and figure out how the spacing would work if you were to make movement trays for round-based minis. Recently I purchased Test of Honour by Warlord Games, which pits two warbands of ~28mm samurai and ashigaru warriors facing off against each other (I will try and do a review when I get some more experience with it).

    Problem: They come on round bases, 25mm diameter, basically same size as standard space marine warhammer 40K bases, and I am assuming the same size as AOS.

    It makes sense to me in this skirmish-oriented game to do rounded bases, plus it looks good, but I did some sketching to try and figure out how to make these round-bases also fit within the KOW game footprint. Both assume a 20mm-stanrdard-human-infantry sized base:

    Troop: 100mm x 40 mm, minimum model count is 6, only fits 4 round bases

    round-base test 1.jpg

    Regiment: 100mm x 80mm, minimum model count is 11, only fits 10 round bases

    round-base test 2.jpg


    I really like the idea of having the option to use these samurai as both skirmishers with round bases to play the Test of Honour game and other skirmish games, but I also want to make this army be able to fight on a warhammer 8/9th-age or KOW battlefield, maybe even a historical game. To do square-base games, I think this means I need to buy more magnets.

    Has anyone else encountered this problem before? Or magnetized and army so it can be used dual-purpose like this? I am wondering if I need to put the magnets on the feet of the models themselves, or on the bases (on the bases would be more magnets to buy...).
     
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  8. pendrake
    Skink Chief

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    @Warden

    What if you used 20mm, round, steel fender washers as the bases for the figures?

    Put your magnetics in the KoW, 8th, 9thA, etc. movement trays? Magnets underneath grab the metal above.

    Use 25mm drop-in bases (the 20mm washer sits inside the 25mm plastic) for the Skirmish game(s).
     
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  9. pendrake
    Skink Chief

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    @Warden
    This
    [​IMG]
    ...is a lovely picture but those are not authentic Bretonnian 5th Edition Triangle Lances. (You know this, right? You are a veteran poster on Roundtable-Bretonnia ...unless that is a different Warden o_O )

    I will see if I can't scare up a picture....

    ...wanders off...

    This is a proper Lance:
    [​IMG]
    ...per the 5th edition rule. Each knight is tucked in behind the one in front. (As silly as that would be if tried with real horses...)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
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  10. Warden
    Skar-Veteran

    Warden Well-Known Member

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    Washers might work, that way they could be easily transferable. I will look into this idea.

    I am betting that someone has done this for a daemons of chaos army before (to use them for 40K and fantasy) but I have yet to find an example.


    It is a lovely picture, but you are right it is slightly off. I had to do some research through the 5th edition book, it is similar but I haven't seen any with just 6 knights in it. But in 6th edition this was changed to make the formations more "wieldy" i think, with no more than 3 in single rank, with a minimum of 3 ranks per unit (9 total knights). Normal units had four ranks (12 knights) but I have yet to make enough knights for these.



    5th Ed lances (1x2x3x4...)
    053.jpg


    6th Edition lance formation (3x3x3...)
    6th edition lance formation.JPG

    And yes I am the same Warden as the one who sometimes lurks over at the Round Table. Great website. Most of my Lustrian Bretonnians follow the 6th edition lance style. all in ranks of 3.

    IMG_4867.JPG

    That being said I would love to see an entire army of 5th edition bretonnians painted up. All I have to go on is the old 5th edition rulebook, which doesn't seem to follow any lance formation. Fantastic pictures though.

    5th ed rulebook Bretonnians vs Lizardmen.JPG
     
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  11. pendrake
    Skink Chief

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    Scroll back up, I just posted a picture. 6 Knights was the minimum to have 2 ranks worth of rank bonus.
     
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  12. Warden
    Skar-Veteran

    Warden Well-Known Member

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    That makes sense. It looks like the other picture had to sacrifice accuracy in order to get 6 knights to fit onto the base size.
     

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