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Tutorial Beastmen Tactica

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Pinktaco, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Do not enter the forests in the Old World without a shrubbery.



    I realize this comes off kinda late in the cycle, but I think I can safely write this and alter later for at least the new Swedish Comp system. Also we needed one and while I haven't played thousand of games against them I think I've played more than most people.

    So...

    The Beastmen army overview

    Special rules:
    Primal Fury is essentially inifinity hatred on anything Gor. They need to pass a Ld test which is fairly easy.
    Beastmen Ambush is never utilized. It's worse than normal ambush and that's all you need to know.

    Strenght of army
    Very strong close combat blocks. Hatred WS4 Bestigors at S6 is very nasty. They will put anything to the ground if you let them. Doombull can be ugly. Razorgors have like the rest very good close combat capabilities.
    They can also put out various kinds of chaff. The headstone can be extremely nasty.

    Weakness of army

    Barely any shooting. Lore of Wild isn't good. No artillery. Most things that resemble WoC is categorically weaker. Like our army their Ld is spread uneven. They rely on characters. All their rare monsters are horribad. Limited selection of units because of bad internal balance. Bad armour save on most units, only one lord can gain 1+ armour save.

    Usual army composition
    It essentially boil down to the following: To herd stone or not. If they don't then expect something like a very angry Doombull. The rest? Well you may be looking at a large block of Gors, a solid block of Bestigors, several chariots, likely some redirectors in terms of Chaos Hounds, Ungors, Razorgors, Harpies. It's unlikely to see any monsters from rare, Centigors, Minotaurs. The person I play against usually bring a block of Razorgors, once he also put his Doombull in the unit.

    The above is the reason why you won't see many BM players. Bad internal balance mean that you'll see yourself with the same units again and again. Changing up the character selection isn't that big of a deal in terms of enjoyment.

    Chaos Legion
    I won't really go there because it's not really relevant, however I'll very quickly put out my thoughts:
    Dedicated BM players will likely sprinkle their army with some of the clearly more superior unit choice, others might grab a Skullcannon or something like that. Don't expect people to take Bestigors with marks, however a Doombull with 3+ ward is nasty.
    WoC/DoC players will likely not take much from the BM army. It's kina like how most VC players will only pick a single or two things from the TK army.
    I will be mentioning some of the marks every once in while though.

    Noteworthy magic items
    The BM army is still a 7th edition army and thus have a lot of items. I'll quickly go over the more prominent once that I've met.

    Ramhorn Helm on a Doombull combined with Dawnstone. Every time the DB pass an armour save will result in a new attack from the Doombull. Expect rerollable 1+ save.

    +1 Strenght banner. It's very expensive so if you see the BSB in a Gor unit you likely know why. It's likely the only place it'll be because other units don't need it.

    Scaly skin chaos gift is self explanatory. It allow DB and Gor lord to reach that magical 1+ or 2+ save.

    Herd Stone is downright sick. Any mage nearby automatically generat another power dice. Expect to see 3-4 lvl 1 shadow mages and a single lvl 4 mages.

    The units
    Doombull

    Is expensive and will be even more expensive by the time you're finished it'll be even more expensive.
    The bull is your average WS6/T5/5A lord, but it also boost 5 wounds and S6 base value. On top of that it have impact hit D3 and Frenzy, should it destroy a unit in close combat it gains another frenzy attacks and can continue to add attacks. If combined with the above mentioned amour it's your worst nightmare for templeguards and saurus warriors. DO NOT GO THERE. It will eat the entire units before you swing and once you swing it'll eat some more. Oh and it's a monstrous infantry unit so S6 stomp as well. So let's recap: average 2 impact hits, 5(6) attacks and 1 stomp all at S6. I believe some people give it +1 To Hit swords making it even more deadly in close combat.

    He give Frenzy to the unit he join so watch out.

    The issue? The monstrous part in the infantry rule. Either you'll see it with the overpriced Minotaurs, Razorgors or alone.

    The Gor lord
    Is kinda meh in a sense. He's essentially an Oldblood with worse valuable stats. He do, however, have M5 and I5. If there's a Gor lord it'll likely be the only 1+ save unit. I'm not sure how many actually take this lord character, but it's the only Ld9 character.

    Great Shaman
    Do not let the great goat get Transformation of Kardon off. Just don't. Hater on any of those monsters will be extremely powerful. Other than that he's a weird mix of combat and mage. He's at WS5, but only 2 attacks at S4. He can gain 3+ ward with mark so that might be a minor inconvinience.

    He know the following lores:
    Beast, Wild, Death, Shadow.
    Wild is lame, beast is good for wyssan's and Transformation, but I think most take Death or Shadow for the obvious reason (initative do or die spells and good debuff spells in shadow with sniper spells in death).

    Mini Bull
    Likely not to be taken. Have the same issue as the angry version (where to hide his ugly face?). Is overall a lesser version of the DB.

    BSB Gor
    Likely taken. The BM rely on their Primal Fury and this you will likely see General and BSB in each their unit to give maximum spread of Ld. If he have the +1 banner just plow him down with focused attacks/your own character since at best he'll be at 4+/6+ saves.

    Like the Beast lord he have worse stats than a Scar Vet.

    Mini Shaman
    Usually taken with either Beast (wyssan's) or Shadow (miasma). Either put next to herd stone with a bunch of other mages or just taken as a single lvl 1 mage with no herd stone.

    Honorable mention Sloguetongue
    Quite nasty. He can hit all our units before the game begin. This can be very bad depending on the roll if you have a skink cloud. DO NOT HAVE LONE CHARACTERS. Just don't. You take X wounds no armour save. Against blocks of units he's not good. He's a lvl 2 Wild mage and cannot do much else than the above mentioned. He isn't expensive either so a very annoying characters.

    Gors
    WS4, S3, T4, M5, Hatred, no armour save. That's about it. Good price and usually have an additional hand weapon. Not uncommon to see with +1S banner and a wyssan's wild form. At that point they're very very dangerous. S5/T5 hatred all rounds all year around? No sir. Without banner? Well S3 in massed volumes can hurt. Also usually taken as a horde for added attacks. Expect to see at least one good block of these.

    Ungors
    Worse than Gors, but at WS3/T3. Still have primal fury. Cheap, but not quite worth it since Gors are cheap to begin with. Ungors are basically humans with shields and M5/Hatred. Would not fear these.

    Ungor Raiders
    Skirmish Ungors. Used as redirectors. Cheap and disposable. Comes with short bows, but meh..

    Chaos Warhounds
    If you've played the WoC version you know what they can do. Not much to write home about. They can gain poisoned attacks, but not really worth it.

    Tuskgor Chariot
    Somewhat cheap, but worse than WoC core chariot in every way. S5/T4 at 4+ save. Have a Bestigor (Great Weapon) and Gor on it. The Tuskgors are 1A at WS3/S4. Expect to see a couple of these.

    Minotaurs
    Overpriced and bad. Well not bad bad, but bad for the price bad. 55pts and only light armour? Meh. They can gain Great Weapon, but don't. If they're with a DB they gain frenzy. If not they gain another attack once they destroy a unit. They have impact hit (1) so there's that. Oh at S5 of course. Not a favoured unit.

    Centigors
    Never seen these in action. I believe they're too expensive for what you get. It's the cavalry of the army and yet it's only at 3+ save I believe. It have the Drunken special rule that give them a random bonus. I'm guessing they count as cavalry and thus gain +1S on charge which bump them to S5. Primal fury again, at WS4. Could be interesting, but don't expect to see them.

    Harpies
    Nasty little buggers. Redirectors or warmachine hunters. 2 attacks each, but S3/T3 no save. Easily shot down.

    Bestigors
    The second block you'll likely see. Kinda like Gors, just with S4 and Great Weapon and Heavy Armour. Still Primal Fury so expect them to remove 10 models, maybe less if you have sword/shield. These are the main damage dealers. I'd guess that they stack up well against Templeguards.

    Razorgor Chariot
    The pumped up version of the core chariot. Compared to the WoC chariot it's inferior. It's pulled by a Razogor who have S6 on the charge so there's that. None of the chariots have scyth on them.

    Razorgors
    Can be taken as few as just one. If taken with more then be careful of their S6 charge. They have T5 and 3W so they're tough to take down, but skinks love them. No armour save, no ward and nor regeneration at all. Also no primal fury and just WS3. They can stomp though. Do not get entangled by a good block of these. Can protect Doombull and suddenly they also have frenzy. That's kinda scary to be honest. As 1 model units they can be heavy redirectors or perfom sneaky flank charges.

    I won't be commenting on the rare monsters as of this point. They're all lousy and hardly ever taken. Giant and Chaos Spawn are like the counterparts.

    Our army

    The Slann

    Is obviously more powerful with more diversity, but even the Slann will bow for the might herd stone. Accept that if it's there they'll have many power dice. Watch out for initative reducing miasma spell and pit of shades/purple sun. Alternatively they can utterly stop any targets with stacked miasma (movement).

    Lore of Death can be nasty against BM. Their low leadership mean that spirit leech is particually nasty. You can easily sniper razorgors and chariots like candy. Wandering Deliberation may come in handy, also loremaster of high magic and swith to spirit leech. Anything that can reduce their Ld will come in hand as well. Most spells that hurt will be good because of low armour save.

    Tetto'eko + Wandering deliberation is a nasty comination. We'll out-perfrom them in our magic phase and vice versa in their.

    Oldblood
    Want to counter that pesky pesky Doombull? Bring the following: OB, Cold One, Great Weapon, Armour of Destiny, Dawnstone and optionally also The Other Trickster Shard. I've done it multiple times and the facial expression once they really you didn't take a single wound and their rerolling armour save of 5+ is worth diddley is hilarious. I luv it.Hell I've charged a solo OB into a unit of minotaurs and razogors both with a Doombull. Challenge them and bait them to take it. Razorgors don't have banners so don't worry too much about combat res.

    In either case always bring a tooled up Oldblood. He's your answer to most problems.

    Scar Vet
    If they bring a +1S banner then counter with a Scar Vet. Align them in the units and pick him out. He'll die easily. A GW scar vet will do an average of 2 wounds counting PF. Alternatively you got a good chariot killer.

    Skink Priest
    Bring a scroll caddy. Especially because of derp herd stone.

    Saurus Warriors
    we've discussed their effeciency in this thread http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/saurus-warriors-the-tactica.16186/
    If they bring the +1S banner then add a Scar Vet to counter it. No cannons so don't worry. Unless there's a skull cannon (Legion of Chaos).Have 40 in a unit and go wide enough to counter Gors. Our guys -> theirs, especially if they're as S3. Alternatively they can bring down Bestigors if you thinned out in the Bestigors before hand (magic/javelins).
    Do not go up against: Razorgor block or Doombull. It will not end well.

    Skink Cohort
    Wouldn't bring. Wouldn't bring in most scenarios and I see nothing really we want to tarpit here. Depending on restriction you might want to bring a couple of these anyway. Cheap banner units and can secure objectives.

    Skrox
    Skrox are.. well I don't quite like them. Big units are expensive and bleed combat resolution and small units are .. well They actually could work to counter charge chariots with that S7 kroxigor. So maybe add 1-2 very small unit with 1 kroxigor and a musician. Otherwise I don't see much reason to pick these.

    Skink Skirmishers
    You'll want these. Whether or not you go cloud is up to you. With cloud you can redirect a lot of the nastiness and win the redirect game, by killing the BM redirectors. You'll want a couple regardless of what you do. A redirected Doombull is a good Doombull. Redirected chartiots are neat as well. Poison shots on anything is lovely. Overall a must in my book, but the amount is up to you.

    Kroxigors
    Could be good here. Not large blocks, but blocks of 2x2 or just a line of 3 could be good. You'll chop up those chariots in no time and T5 razorgors will easily be put down. Just don't get charged by any of those. Against the infantry they kinda lack.

    Templeguards
    Regardless of whether you go cloud or not you might want a unit of these. They can go toe to toe with most things, just keep them away from blocks of charging Razorgors and Doombull. While they're "only" S5 they strike before Bestigors and that's important. Wyssans Wildform on these will be incredible and a priority spell if up against Bestigors. If put with Slann they'll stick forever. Be careful because your opponent will likely set himself up for multiple charge scenarios and that'll bring down any Templeguard + Slann unit.

    Flyers
    Terradons are lovely redirectors, drop rock is a good special rule, but there are no warmachines so consider how much redirection you need. Rippers in units of 6 can absolutely devastate Bestigors (Toad Rage). I wouldn't normally bring Ripperdactyls, but low amount of shooting and GW unit will make for a tasty setup for your thirsty Rippers.

    Bastiladon
    At S4 it goes without saying that you don't take if for the strenght. +1I can come very handy against the initative do or die spells. Bound spell highly depends on your amount of wizards. If no slann consider it since it's hard hitting.

    The Ark of Sotek? Nah bro.

    Cameleon Skinks
    No Warmachines so they can be kinda meh. They're expensive Skink skirmishers without quick to fire. I wouldn't take them if I knew I was going up against BM. If I play normal "all comers list" I'll likely bring 2 x 5/6 units.

    Ancient/Baby Stegadon
    Good impact hit on both and no cannons is a treat for our monsters. I'd say they could be interesting, but I'm not the biggest fan. I'd likely go with ancient steg for that S6. Can wipe out chariots like nothing.

    Troglodon
    lol

    Razordons/Salamanders
    If you can hit with your salamanders (I can't) they're golden. They burn straight through Gors and basically the same for Bestigors. Razordons are kinda like Skink Skirmishers. Do you need more redirection and do you want the ranged attacks they add? Personally I hate razordons so there's that. Salamanders can be very good.

    Summary
    Beastmen is a very nasty army in close combat. Hatred in all rounds, generally decent WS (WS4 even on core Gore). Bestigors hit like a truck. Razorgors hit like a several trucks. Doombull hits like the iceberg that took down Titanic. Oh wait it's the opposite. Our Oldblood is the iceberg and the doombull titanic. At any rate do not let the DB touch any infantry units you care about. Ever. Herd Stone produce a lot of power dice and they can be tough to deal with, but normal dispel phase from BM. Also if they have derpstone see if you can sneak something past their units and slaugther the mages. It's a very expensive setup.

    Expect that your Saurus Warriors can deal with Gors and Templeguards can go toe to toe with Bestigors. Redirect stuff you dislike and pick your targets. Expect lots of smaller stuff like chariots, lone razorgors and various redirectors. The BM player will try to multi charge you. Watch out for that because they'll very quickly remove your steadfast on Saurus Warriors and thus win the game.

    Overall ours units -> theirs, so it's very important for you to win the deployment and get the combats you want.

    Lore of Death is ideal because of snipers spells (low leadership) and -3 Ld spell. If you can remove Primal Fury they lose a lot of oomph.

    If you play with ETC rules they can be kinda scary. 2400pts vs 2700 is quite the difference.

    Last, but not least:

    BM is not a bad army, they just have bad internal balance. While they suffer in some areas don't trust goats in bushes, they'll murder your anus in close combat if given the chance. So do not underestimate them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
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  2. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    It's late so I'll read through it tomorrow. I'll also see if I need anything in particular that needs to be added.
     
  3. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

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    Hey,

    great write up!
    I play the goats myself along with lizardmen so I'll add in a couple of my comments from the experience. Really like the army but as you brought out they are a bit subpar with the old book.

    It's actually not that easy to pass as the units tend to wander around quite a bit from the general + BSB so if they need to test the PF by themselves it's not that clear that it will be passed.
    Ambush is just too unreliable to be used. I use it sometimes just for fun but it can be used to gain the +1 to see who goes first. That's about the only use for it.

    Agreed, I really enjoy the army and the feel of it but even when there are plenty of units in the book some of them are just plain awful (read: centigors)


    I've never played with the legions ruleset other than what ETC comp pack allows me to. But this really brings the BM army back to some level of competitiveness and gives much more enjoyment for the games.

    Downside is that the poor fellow usually don't have any saves after you take the banner. Yes you could give him the gnarled hide for 5+ scaly but that means it wouldn't be available for the doombull then. I rarely take this banner anymore. The BSB is just too squishy even if the banner is awesome.


    Now this is the reason you play the army. :D
    These guys can bring down entire armies by themselves - so cool!
    Just one correction to the frenzy. They gain the extra attack every time they win a combat round. Not just when they destroy a unit. However the attacks are lost when the frenzy is.

    Agreed, the gorebull isn't really an alternative if you are not allowed to take marks from legions list or ETC comp. Some armies need the BSB more and some less. BM belong to the first category. The army cannot function without the BSB.

    You might take the wounds on 4+. But it still is really good ability. As mentioned not that good against bigger units but will wreck skirmishers and warmachines. Can also take death magic which is usually an autoinclude compared to wild.

    Yes quite cheap. I've now started to take couple or multiple smaller units of gors instead of one bigger horde as I don't sport the +1S banner anymore. I feel that they perform as well in small units as in bigger. There is just an extra unit then to play with.

    I've never seen these being fielded in a beastmen army. They have the same role as harpies or single razordons but the warhounds are much worse in every aspect.

    In my opinion the only really solid core choice. Cheap but can dish out quite ok damage when charging. Also as BM lack shooting these do a great job clearing out chaff that would otherwise be rather hard.

    Yes very much so. One model costs a quarter of a hundred and only 4+ save. Can swap out to GW's for extra cost but then they hit last which is just asking for more trouble. The drunken special rule isn't really that great either. If they only would be fast cavalry then they could be played... maybe not even then.


    Hands down the most versatile unit in the army (not counting characters). They chaff up, hunt warmachines and can take out other skirmishers.

    The main damage dealer is the doombull. ;)
    Anyway, I've recently been so underwhelmed by these as they don't seem to perform. Yes they have primal fury (hatred) and S6. But they are rather expensive with close to no save. They get shot down really easy and then in later the game after 2-3 rounds of shooting there isn't much you want to go toe to toe on. And after the first round of combat there aren't usually much more than about 20 attacks.
    I would pitch up our temple guard against bestigors any given day of the week as I think the lizards would just wreck the unit.


    I don't think they are necessarily that bad. I would really love to field ghorgon as it essentially just is a massive minotaur that just chews through bigger blocks (core units and such) that you don't want your doombull to stuck in. However with the high price tag and no save means that they just eat up too many points from elsewhere and die too easy.

    I think the main bonus from ETC rules are the marks - not so much the extra points. Also Blightkings are really good addition to the army and can easily substitute bestigors.

    Yes, they are not bad, just quite steep learning curve and in the right hands (not mine :D) very effective army.

    BR
    Agrem
     
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  4. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Thanks, I would appear I'm not that far off according to your comment ^^ I'll add some of the things you wrote.

    I play against an old-school veteran who've mained BM many years and is good with them. He's good at setting up multi charges and he's generally good at positioning his units in s way where his units can do some nasty things should he win and break the unit he charged.

    With that said I don't feel the army is overly powerful. Their close combat can be nasty, but so can ours. It's just just that when you can expect more than one charge and that can be hard to deal with xD
     

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