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Tutorial Broad Types of LM Armies, 8th ed

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Scalenex, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Qupakoco made a great thread a while back on broad types of army lists for the last book. I have rewritten his old thread with his consulation for the new book, quoting the old article verbatim where things have not changed.


    Traditional Army

    Chances are if you started playing Lizardmen and have a decent sized collection, you built a Traditional Army without realizing it. The Traditional Army is a fusion of all the other armies with a little bit of everything, but don’t randomly pick a bit of everything. It needs to be cohesive.

    List Building

    The base of your army should be about three blocks of roughly 24 Saurus Warriors in a 2500 point game. You can swap one (or more) Saurus block for Temple Guard or Skroxigor of equal points value if you want. If you run with a Slann a Temple Guard center should serve you nicely. If you are playing a smaller or larger point size game than 2500 points, it’s usually a better idea to make your units smaller/larger rather than adding/dropping whole units.

    You should aim to have a three or so of the following choices: Skink Skirmishers, Chameleon Skinks, and/or Terradon Riders. These will run interference, sneak into vulnerable points in the enemy line (war machines), and generally be annoying by strategically fleeing and redirect your enemy. Poisoned shooting can nickel and dime monsters. To protect your Skirmishers you can take a few Razordons if you are expecting to face enemy Vanguard troops or light flyers. If points are tight you can use small units of Skink Cohorts in lieu of Skirmishers.

    You’ll want a couple support units to protect the base of your army. Salamanders will soften up enemy blocks nicely before you enter close combat. Stegadons, Carnosaurs, Kroxigor, Skroxigor, and Cold One Riders all provide nice supporting charges. Troglodons and Swarms can buff your units. Bastiladons are a multi-class unit that can buff units AND provide supporting charges. Rippers are a multi-class unit that swings between supporting charges and interference. Swarms and large Skink Cohorts can serve as stallers if that’s your style.

    You want some magic. As a generalist army you probably want a generalist spell selection. Your best bets for Slann are probably High Magic, Wandering Deliberations, Heavens, Shadow or Light. In most cases you want at least one model that channel the Slann’s spells. If you go Slann-less I’d recommend going for a level two Skink Priest or two and at least one of the magical magical engines (Solar Engine Bastiladon or Ancient Stegadon).

    Filling up the Core requirement should not be difficult. Between solid infantry blocks and the redirectors you need, most Traditional LM armies will meet the minimum 25% easily.

    Basic Tactics

    Variations of the List Type

    Traditional Traditional: The literal and figurative center of your army is a Slann in a Temple Guard bunker. The Slann provides re-rolls at Ld 9 or 10 and magical support as well as anchoring your army with an elite nigh-unbreakable infantry center.

    Loose Traditional: Your traditional army is backed by an ethereal Slann on his lonesome or you have a non-etheral Slann with a pack of Skink Skirmishers casting magical support from afar. You may want to consider taking a non-Slann BSB to let your center hold up better.

    Sans Slann: This army uses Engine of the Gods and the Solar Engine combined with a few level two Skink Priests to pick up the magical slack. Perfectly competitive.

    Sotek Army: It’s all about Poison. Back your Saurus Core with multiple Bastiladons bearing the Ark of Sotek. Take as many units of Swarms as you can afford and legally field. Maybe put a Cohort or Skroxigor unit with poisoned upgrades on the periphery. Include the Prophet of Sotek for a capstone. I tried a hybrid version of this list. Ideally you want Bastiladons with Swarms in front flanked on both sides by Saurus Warriors. The combo of Bastiladon/Swarms/Saurus Warriors is fairly potent but you have to be wary of disruptive enemy deployments and/or interposing terrain features. If circumstances don’t let you alternate between Bastiladons, Swarms, and Sauri appropriately you lose all your synergy. EDIT: If you local meta uses End Times rules occasionally, you might as well go for the Cohort rules outlined in Thanqol to get the boosts because you are probably covering 90% of the prereqs anyway.

    Kroak Bomb List: Take Lord Kroak in a massive Temple Guard block to be your army’s center. Toss a Scar Veteran BSB into the unit. Make sure to include at least two Skink priests, preferably in Skirmisher bunkers. Move the Skink Priests as deep into the enemy lines as possible and cast Kroak’s nuke spell over and over again.

    Hybrid List: Pick one of the other list types and split the difference. So you can have a Saurus heavy Traditional army or Dinosaur heavy Traditional army. This will give you most of the strengths of the other type while softening the weaknesses somewhat. See below for specific hybrids.


    Skirmisher Army

    With the entirety or near the entirety of your army made up of highly mobile light units, you make sure your opponent’s original battle plan is now worthless.

    List Building

    This is generally not an army type you want to go sans Slann with (unless the points size is small). Skinks took an Ld hit with our new book so you probably want a Slann now to make this list work so your Skinks can rally more consistently with his leadership bubble. Salamanders can’t march and shoot any more so you’ll want a lot of magic to put the hurting on things (another reason to take a Slann). Whether bunkered in a Temple Guard block or not, you probably should take a couple Skink Priests to serve as Arcane Vassals. There should be no shortage of Skirmishers to bunker the priests right?

    Salamanders aren’t out nowadays but they take more careful positioning than they used to. If you have the points to spare, taking Tet may help you. Whereas Salamanders are harder to use in this army type, Razordons are now easier to use. Their longer range makes up for their inability to march and shoot.

    Filling up the Core requirement should not be difficult. Even if you max out Chameleon Skinks, Razordons, and Salamanders, you are going to need to lean heavily on Core to make an army composed of mostly Skirmishing troops.


    Basic Tactics

    Scalenex would like to add that you should magic the crap out of your enemies while you are doing all this.

    Variations of the List Type

    Purist Skirmisher List: A Purist Skirmisher list is entirely made up of things that Skirmish with the sole (optional) exception of a lone ethereal Slann. Your battle plan is to do maximum points denial. By denying them the opportunity to kill your cowardly units, you can win by killing a small number of foes. This can work, but it’s likely to lead to unsatisfying games and moderately annoyed opponents.

    Neo-Skirmisher List (Skirmisher/Traditional Hybrid). All your Core is Skink Skirmishers and/or small Cohorts but you have a small potent portion of the rest of your army invested in heavy hitters. A Temple Guard with a Slann, Salamanders, Saurus cowboys, Kroxigor, and the like. Your battle plan is to dictate where and when the battles happen. Rather than nickeling and diming enemy units with volleys of poisoned darts, the goal is to isolate enemy units with careful redirection, so your heavy hitters can take out the enemy army piece by piece wherever they are exposed.


    Predatory Army

    Originally called the “Saurus Army”. This list is no longer just for Sauri. This army is based on solid hard hitting infantry and not sneaky tricks. You basically want to take every unit that says “Predatory Fighter” somewhere in the description.

    List Building
    .
    Fill your Core up with Saurus Warriors. Take some Temple Guard, Cold One Cavalry, and/or Kroxigor. Make sure most of your blocks have a Saurus character. Take some magic. A lot of people dislike the Trogolodon, but if there is any army that can use a Troglodon, this is it. A Carnosaur (or two!) will fit the theme nicely. Then spend whatever points you have left over on more Saurus Warriors. This is sadly the least competitive army type we have in an all-comer's environment

    Of all the LM army types, this army utilizes the most Core expenditures, so paying your Core Tax will be a non-issue.

    Basic Tactics

    You can cover your weak flank with Salamanders, a hungry Carnosaur or with a Slann blasting any units coming at you a direction you don’t like.

    Variations of the List Type

    Supported Predatory Fighters: A Slann in a Temple Guard block is your army’s anchor. A Troglodon (or even two) will boost your Predatory Fighters and help your Slann aim spells. A few Swarms and/or a Bastiladon are not a terrible idea either.

    All Saurus: Leave the Kroxigors at home for more Saurus power. Wizards aren’t Saurus either so you run this without magic. Saurus Warriors provide you the bulk of your hitting power with Cold One Cavalry for mighty supporting attacks. The points normally spent on magic go for more and larger blocks. This throws a big curve ball to people expecting a conventional Lizardmen list, especially if they load up on magical defense expecting a tooled up Slann.

    Skink Lite (aka Predatory/Traditional Hybrid): Other Predatory armies run with zero Skinks. With this you are still relying on your Predatory Fighters, but you are now taking a small number of Skink units cherry picked for specific niches. Perhaps a Skink Priest and a small Skirmisher Bunker to aim Slann spells, a Solardon, and/or a Salamander pack or two.


    Monster Mash Army

    Many of us started Lizardmen because we love dinosaurs. A Monster Mash list takes as many dinosaurs as possible.

    List Building

    Take as close to minimum Core as possible. A block of Saurus or Skroxigor isn’t a bad idea but you probably want mostly redirectors. If possible, every character should be riding a dinosaur. Then you take as many Cold One Riders, Salamanders, Razordons, Stegadons (Ancient or otherwise), Bastiladons, and flyers that you can fit in. Troglodons are a dinosaur, but they do not synergize well in a Monster Mash list. There will generally not be enough Predatory Fighters or direct damage spells to make the Troglodon support powers useful. In most cases you want a Carnosaur riding general over a Slann to fit the theme better.

    Basic Tactics

    You are using target saturation as your main anti-war machine tool, but you do have Skink Skirmishers as poor man’s Chameleons. Basically the goal is to overwhelm your enemy with giant jungle beasts before they can bring ranged attacks (both artillery and spells) to bear against you.

    Variations of the List Type

    LAF (Lustrian Air Force or more generically Flying Circus): Take AT LEAST four units of Rippers, Terradons, and/or tooled up flying Skink Chiefs. They should be able to sweep away war machines pretty fast and then redirect the crap out of whatever you don’t want to fight letting your Carnosaur(s) and Ancient Stegadons flatten foes at their leisure. As a side benefit, more Ripper units means more blot toads. Since a Ripper gets the bonuses against ANY Blot toad instead of THEIR blot toad you gain more flexibility with these guys than normal. Your Core should be mostly Skinks or Skrox so they can keep up with the high movement dinosaurs.

    Dual Carnosaur List: I will attempt to paraphrase the master. The goal is to get a Carnosaur into both enemy flanks. The purpose of all non-Carnosaur troops is to let this happen either by redirection or screening for the Carnosaurs behalf. Since you are probably going Slann-less you should take some Engine bearing dinosaurs. A healthy mix of our Core options is probably best.

    Saurus Mash (Monster Mash/Predatory Hybrid): Your minimum Core is filled entirely with Saurus Warriors. The army moves relatively slowly, but you are using this time to position yourself carefully. While your Saurus are marching all out, your dinosaurs (probably Rippers and Stegadons) are trying to set up juicy supporting charges and your Salamanders are roasting things. The bane of this list is enemy redirectors, be ready to blast them with Solardon.

    Watch Where You Step (Monster Mash/Skirmisher Hybrid): A large number of dinosaurs is backed with lots of small Skink units to redirect enemies to their doom and eliminate harmful war machines.

    Leading from behind (Monster Mash/Traditional Hybrid A): You have a lone Slann floating behind your rampaging dinosaur horde (Temple Guard aren't used because they take Special points which could be used for dinosaurs.)

    Hexoatl Grand Army (Monster Mash/Traditional Hybrid B): Mazdamundi rides his mighty Stegadon at the center of your mighty army.

    The Cavalry Has Arrived: Who said you had to use large dinosaurs? Take lots of Saurus Cavalary and a some units of Rippers. Fill up your minimum Core with Skroxigor and Skink Redirectors. The Skroxigor move almost as fast as your cavalry and can provide some Static Combat resolution with ranks.


    Magic Makes the Army

    WD Slann: Eight signature spells is a diverse toolkit, so WD Slann are a natural fit for a Traditionalist army which also aims to be generalist. WD Slann benefit from lots of Arcane Vassals, so they are a natural fit for a Skirmisher Armies. Since you have so many magic missiles, this is NOT conducive to charging your enemy ASAP making this Slann build less powerful for Monster Mash or Predatory Armies.

    High Magic: High Magic is diverse so it fits well with a Traditional Army. The Hand of Glory and Walk Between Worlds are tailor made to counteract Saurus weaknesses making it a good lore for Predatory armies as well. There is no reason why High magic would be especially good or especially bad for Skirmisher or Monster Mash armies.

    Life Slann: Life magic can only boost one unit at a time so it’s a little weak for a Traditional and Skirmisher Armies which rely on the army being a cohesive whole. The lore attribute and single unit focus both works quite well with a Monster Mash army though. Predatory Armies kind of fall in between depending on how many Kroxigor you took.

    Light Slann: Light works best when you deploy tight around a center, so this is a good choice for a Traditional Army. It works even better with a Predatory Army since your army deployment is likely to be compact and Light counteracts the weak spots of Saurus Warriors almost perfectly. Except for Light of Battle, Light is pretty weak for a Skirmisher army. Light is okay for a Monster Mash army but your Slann will generally have trouble keeping up with your main force unless he happens to be Mazdamundi.

    Metal Slann: Metal buffs and hexes helps Skinks more than anyone else, so it’s a natural fit with the Skirmisher army. It also lets you knock out targets with potent armor saves easily, the only targets that Skirmishers struggle with. Metal is a bit lackluster with other Army types unless you know you are going up against an armor heavy opponent like Empire or Brettonians.

    Shadow Slann: The hexes and Okham’s Mindrazor really help PF units clean house making this a great Lore for Predatory Armies. The hexes aren’t potent enough to help Skirmishers though and are a bit redundant for Monster Mash lists. Traditional Armies fall in between.

    Death Slann: Regardless of what army type you are taking, you want Arcane Vassals to compensate for the short range of the spells. The hero snipe spells are good at removing enemy Blender characters and Blenders are a bigger problem for Predatory and Traditional lists than the other two, though it’s not hard to make Death work with any army type.

    Fire Slann: If we took a survey, I’m guessing Fire magic would be lore least used by LM not counting the Ruby Ring. You can use a Lore to play to your strengths or manage your weaknesses. In this case, you play to your Strengths. A Fire Slann will help a Skirmisher army whittle targets to death at range. With a Traditional Army or Skirmisher hybrid army, I see the main purpose of Fire being to kill enemy mobile units that threaten your Skirmishers. In a heavy army like a Monster Mash or Predator army, S4 hits just aren’t impressive enough to matter, against your main targets but it can be used to clear chaff.

    Beast Magic: You don’t need a Slann for Beasts. Wyssans will help out any style of army. Wildheart is nice for a Monster Mash army, but there really aren’t enough buffs to make Wildheart that significant. If you want to do more than dabble in Beasts, make sure you have lots of characters regardless of what army type you are using.

    Heavens Magic: Heavens is the least themed lore in battlefield niche making it a jack of all trades lore that works well with Traditional armies for their very versatility. A dash of Heavens will work in just about any list. Heaven is especially good for Monster Mash lists because Iceshard Blizzard will help you against dinosaur killing artillery. The mini-Slann, Tet, gives you free Vanguards which is great for Monster Mash or any list that includes both fast and slow troops.

    Slann-less: Solar Engines are very powerful considering their low casting cost. Even with a Slann, a Solar Engine is a good buy unless you are taking a Slann with lots of magic missiles already in which case the Solar Engine is a bit redundant. Skink Priests can use Heavens and Beasts, both lores with a broadly adaptable usage. In most cases you probably want a Heavens AND a Beast Skink, but if you double up on the same Lore you can get more mileage out of an Engine of the Gods which will make up somewhat for not getting the +4 modifer to cast all your spells.

    Undeath: I think for a LM player, Undeath is mostly for summoning stalling units and redirectors. Since Monster Mash and Predatory armies just march forward and smash things, they will get less mileage out of the lore than the more maneuverable and sneaky Traditional and Skirmisher lists.

    If anyone has anything to add or change let me know. Some of this is theory hammer. If any one knows of a detailed battle report that uses a textbook example of one of the types or subtypes, let me know and I'll add the link here. If someone wanted to make a detailed Tactica on one of the Four Broad Army types I'd appreciate it (though I recognize a pipe dream when I see it).
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2016
  2. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    hmmm how about an all poision list....

    Anchent stegs.
    skink cohorts with poision upgrade
    saurus with swarm escort
    more skinks and chamelions
    tenehuian
    ark of sotec bastilidon.

    .... you get the idea...


    oh also lord Kroak list
    big block of temple guard with kroak
    and maybe a scarvet,

    and a bunch of skink priest for extra range
    (for kroaks spell)
     
  3. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I guess poison would fall under a Traditional type because it uses a fairly even mix of things. With Kroak, the question is what do you take in your army besides Kroak, the TG, and the Skink Priests?
     
  4. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Id like to add a list I used. I called it Full 'tard ahead, but Brute Froce or similar is fine. It's a variant of the monster mash list. No slann, 2 oldbloods on CO, a scar vet on hero, some dispel priests. Core can either be saurus or skrox. Special is at least 10 kroxigors in one unit and something like 7 COR for your cowboys. You now have 2 very fast and very deadly units. I went with 11 krox and a champ. IF thede guys anywhere near infantry they'll smash right through it, but their main strenght is heavy armoured units. I used the list vs an empire player and it worked well.
     
  5. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I added N810's suggestions classifying them both as Traditional lists.

    Brute Force seems like a Slann-less Predatory Army. I will mull this over.
     
  6. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

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    Full Tard Ahead really wants Tetto Eko to give both those death stars vanguard.

    -Matt
     
  7. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    That's fine :)
     
  8. Rocdocta
    Skink

    Rocdocta New Member

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    I would like to suggest a type of list I am tinkering with: The zero magic list.

    For the points of a Slann with basic gear you can get 1.5 skink chief, spear and armour on an ancient steggs combo. If you can find another 150 points you have 2 ancients in the hero slot that we don't usually fill up. Could make one a bsb in larger points.

    I tried this as my slann was just not doing much. I was using him for LD and magic defence. I found a solitary skink priest with is +2 to dispell just didn't do a lot and he wasn't casting much either as LVL4s were shutting him down.

    I will play more games and report on it.
     
  9. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    In theory any of the broad types of armies can work with zero magic, use the points for extra skirmishers, Sauri, dinosaurs, or whatever, but I think a no-magic list would probably work best with a Traditional build. If you don't take magic, you probably want a wide variety of units to handle your various challenges.
     
  10. MarchoftheStegs
    Saurus

    MarchoftheStegs New Member

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    Hexoatl Grand Army! (Monster Mash/Traditional Hybrid B): Mazdamundi rides his mighty Stegadon at the center of your mighty army.

    MY FAVORITE LIST THAT WAS KILLED BY THE POINT RAISE.

    UGGGHH.

    I'm now working on The Magnificent 4 List. 1 big block of saurus to control the midfield and a Cold one bus chock full of characters and Skavepelt banner. Skirmishers needed.
     
  11. Kcibrihp-Esurc
    Razordon

    Kcibrihp-Esurc Well-Known Member

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    I'm Trying a S.S.S (Sneaky Skink Skirmisher) army with a flying ethereal slann, 2 scar vets on cold one accompanied by 8 cold one riders (musician & std bearer) 5 skink priests level ones 3 beasts, 2 heavens, 4 cham skink units 3 at 5 and 1 at 6 all with stalkers. Oh, almost forgot I'm fielding 11 units of skink skirmishers all with ten people 2 blowpipes 9 with javs 2 with Blowpipes also have patrol leaders meaning I have 110 skinks in core (so small I almost forgot it was there) 5 in heroes and 21 in special -needs- :D
     
  12. Hebus
    Saurus

    Hebus Member

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    How do you make a slann fly ?!
     
  13. heuningby
    Saurus

    heuningby Member

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    Yeah you can't. Arabian carpet says models on foot only and Slann's palanquin states it is not regarded as a model on foot.
     
  14. Darkneo89
    Skink

    Darkneo89 New Member

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    I made a similar list too! 36 Saurus, solo slann with dragonbane gem + ironcurse icon behind them, 10 co + 2 scarvet on Co, eotg steg, solarodon, skink skirmish and terradon! I guess it's some kind of "monster mash/traditional hybrid 1".
    Do you think that is actually a viable option to run only one block of saurus?
     
  15. Kcibrihp-Esurc
    Razordon

    Kcibrihp-Esurc Well-Known Member

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    Oops, Missed that thanks for pointing it out :oops:
     

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