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KoW Buff rumors and hearsay

Discussion in 'Salamanders Discussion' started by Negator, Dec 23, 2016.

  1. Jack Trowell
    Cold One

    Jack Trowell Active Member

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    The Lute of Insatiable Darkness is strongly hinted as simply giving bane chant to the user, similar to the healing charm and the boomstick.

    In my opinion It will probably be Bane Chant(2), useful but average like the other spell items.
     
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  2. Itepixcauh
    Ripperdactil

    Itepixcauh Well-Known Member

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    Extremely good for my Brotherhood army on my Exemplar Adjutant... Also have a great mini for him too
     
  3. BAE
    Razordon

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    I was playing a few games at Mantic HQ today and asked about the unit buffs as there's so much chatter on here about them. I only asked jokingly but to my surprise was given a photocopy of the page with the unit changes on to take home! Proof at last!

    IMG_20170114_210959.jpg

    p.s. This only contains the buffs for 4 units, which does not tally with the rumour that 5 units were buffed. I can't guarantee that the next page doesn't have it on - some units for other armies are not grouped together and I don't know whether all are on this page.

    p.p.s. I also asked for permission to share this information with the good people of Lustria-Online and they said yes, so I am posting this with Mantic's blessings.
     
  4. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    So, anklydons, skyraiders, hunters..... One becomes maybe better. Is a fire drake going to be usable now? 14/16 still seems uber low for 190?

    Pretty happy with the rest.
     
  5. BAE
    Razordon

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm not sure if I'd use the term 'usable'. I think the most I would admit is that he's less unusable... My main concern still stands - he just isn't manoeuvrable enough. For me, any unit with less than 10 attacks should avoid charging a front as much as possible as it won't do any real damage. The fire drake will inevitably end up in combat as even if you're taking him just as a breath weapon (which would be hideously expensive, but against predominantly De3+ armies it becomes very powerful) he has to get close to use it. With 8 attacks (4 hits a turn) he just can't hurt anything but he doesn't have the manoeuvrability to ensure he can get favourable fights and increases this number. I'm fine with a GFE having 8 attacks as surge makes him manoeuvrable enough to double, if not triple, that figure for many of his charges. The fire drake will very, very rarely get more than 8. Vicious gives you slightly more chance that you'll wound 4 times rather than 3, but even if you guaranteed me 4 wounds a turn he wouldn't be worth it.
     
  6. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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  7. BAE
    Razordon

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    By the way, I forgot to mention that I also chatted with the Mantic guys about when we might see some Sally units released. I know that Q4 2017 has been mentioned a few places but I was told that it is more likely to be 2018 sometime.

    And Dan King has said it is 5 units, which means the unit changes must spill over to the next page.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
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  8. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    does vicious even make up for the clan lords price? seems like maybe a 5 point upgrade
     
  9. Tecuani
    Saurus

    Tecuani Member

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    Maybe, considering the Clan Lord is only 20 points above similar elite heroes like the dwarf king or elven king, and has CS(2)-vicious combines with that to give a genuine edge in damage output. It definitely brings the Clan Lord within 5 or ten points of being balanced, and that feels arguable.
    On Fire Drakes, this is a double improvement, since vicious improves not only it's melee damage but also it's already powerful Breath Attack. On a Speed 7 ht4 monster, breath (16) and vicious is powerful, and that it's also able to deal damage in combat removes a major weakness compared to most ranged units, making it more flexible. No, it isn't taking out units by itself, but neither is it fighting units by itself-a 50mm base gives plenty of potential to combine it's attacks with another unit, in which case it's making a useful contribution to the combat.
    This isn't a big change, but it's a significant one, and honestly I like a small balance shift a lot better than a bigger, and much more disruptive, change to these unit's profiles. Myself, I'd say it's one appropriate to the minor balance problems, which simply aren't big enough to be worth the problems a larger re-write would cause.
     
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  10. BAE
    Razordon

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    I didn't feel overly aggrieved at the CLoWFDs points cost and I do think this evens it out a bit.

    I can't see how any of those king/lord/etc/ individuals on foot are worth their points, but I know some players use them well. For me the main thing is their big beast-riding counterparts. The CLoWFD was only marginally less value than the Dragon Kindred Lord: 30pts less but with -2 Attacks, CS(2) +TC(1) instead of CS(3) and -2 Nerve (and+1 Breath). Add in vicious now for the CLoWFD and I'm not sure which I'd choose, which is the ideal situation when it comes to balance!

    I understand where you are coming from but I have found it is like the Ankylodon - looks good on paper but the in-game experience falls considerably short. Paying for both good melee and good range in one units means a considerable waste of points as you can only use one function per turn. For comparison, for basically the same cost the Dwarfs can have a regiment of Ironclad (who are Def 5+ w/ Ne 14/16) and a Flame Belcher (Breath (18)). I know there are other differences (speed etc.), but being able to use 12 Ironclad attacks and 18 Breath per turn is considerably more useful than having to choose between either. Goblin armies can have a War Trombone and either a Rabble horde or Troll Regiment, again which provides considerably more flexibility and damage output.

    Agreed. I think Salamanders are a demonstrably weaker faction in the Mantic world but not hideously so, and much of the time due to lack of viable/useful options than individual unit value. Little tweaks like this should be done between game editions, but I think a larger revision for KoW 3rd Ed would be appreciated.
     
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  11. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    I meant the foot and mounted versions.
     
  12. Tecuani
    Saurus

    Tecuani Member

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    I play Dwarves, and a Flame Belcher needs to be taken very good care of to stop an opponent shutting it down or killing it. 12" range on a movement 4 warmachine makes it very vulnerable. At only M4 and unable to march, it can also need two turns to get it into range. Firedrakes with M7 have a lot more mobility, and are in danger from a much smaller range of opponents.
    As far as only using it's ranged weapon or it's melee attack is concerned, it's more like having a melee attack to use in circumstances where I can't use the Breath weapon, and a Breath weapon to use when I can't use the melee attack. With Flame Belchers, I'm often choosing between shooting a unit or attacking it in melee with a different unit, so I still sacrifice some melee attacks.
    Specialisation is good when you can reliably keep a unit in it's specialised role, but it's also a big weakness.
     
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  13. BAE
    Razordon

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    Great! Just when I thought Sallies has been made slightly less underpowered it turns out that breath attacks have been nerfed! Cover and stealthy now cause breath to hit on 5+. Admittedly I don't utilise it much in my current list but breath is still one of the primary components of the Salamander list as a whole.
     
  14. Tecuani
    Saurus

    Tecuani Member

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    Might be rough on Ember sprites, but an individual Mage-Priest should still be able to get clear LoS a lot of the time, and the Fire Drakes benefit from being a monster and seeing over infantry without penalty. As a bonus, though, since the penalty effects everyone our pathfinder units are able to make better use of the cover from being in difficult terrain. I think this is a manageable change.
     
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  15. BAE
    Razordon

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying it's unmanageable, just that it definitely affects us more than other armies and that is a shame as we're already demonstrably one of the weaker factions.
     
  16. Jack Trowell
    Cold One

    Jack Trowell Active Member

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    For mention it was mentionned that cover being affected by stealthy might not have been kept in the final version.
     

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