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8th Ed. Building ETC lists with Lizards

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Irish_Lizard, Jan 24, 2015.

  1. Irish_Lizard
    Saurus

    Irish_Lizard Member

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    Due to spending far too much time writing and rewriting etc lists lately I decided to write this mostly to get my thoughts down on paper. What follows are my thoughts and opinions based on my experiences both at the main event and at various practice events as regards single player armylists. (Team events tend to differ based on the size of the team and role of the player).

    Part 1: Know your enemy
    Knowing what to expect and what is and isnt allowed is vital when sitting down to write a list. In the ETC and under that comp this is generally easy enough. Most tournaments publish lists and due to the highly competitive nature of the event there isnt much variety. Most armies have one or two builds that work well.

    Beastmen
    They generally have one build with minor variations. You'll see 2 big(40+ish) blocks of m5 infantry, heavy magic, cheap low LD chaff and some chariots. Things to watch out for include a flying doombull especially now they can have a 3++, 1+ rerollable doombull/beastlord with asf and extra attacks for each save he makes, +1 strength banner on the bsb, powerdice spam from herdstone and/or death.

    Brets
    These are another one trick pony, one mega lance, one baby lance, two trebs add chaff knights and pegs to taste. They almost always pray so you can go first and the only lores you need to worry about are life, heavens and beasts. Things to watch out for include the HKB lord, double scroll, +D6" on first charge, wizards have innate MR, small chance of the Bret RAF which has mostly fallen out of favor.

    Chaos Dwarfs
    Rarely seen due to not being a real army they actually have 2 builds, monster mash and full gunline. They will always have a block of dwarf infantry as core with some hobgoblins to round it out. The monster mash usually includes a flying lvl 4 likely on death, k'daai, bull centaur taruks( think scar vets on crack), and some death shriekers(stonethrowers). The gunline will be magma cannons, death shriekers, hellcannons and dreadquake mortars all of which can fire indirectly and there will be at least 2 engineers to babysit the artillery park. Things to look out for k'daai( will eat entire temple guard block in a turn or 2), wolf khans, ashstorm and chalice of blood and darkness.

    Daemons
    Generally an MSU army the main difference is GD or not. Things to expect are min 2 units of horrors, skullcannon, beasts of nurgle. Commonly seen are plaguebearers/flies, ambushing fleshhounds, screamers, furies and hearlds of T. Be aware of the reign of chaos table, there isnt much you can do about it however. No scroll, MR and rarely a lvl 4 means they tend to be vunerable to magic. Word of warning careful of the triple GD list. Karios = bad but should be rare

    Dark elves
    Very much an MSU avoidance list though dont be surprised to see blocks of infantry. The darkelf bus is comped out so expect lots of shades, 4 rbts, warlocks, darkshards and a couple of fast combat characters which can probably take on a vet. The infantry are executioners and things scar vets can smash up. Things to watch out for include strong shooting, cloak of twilight, ring of hoetek, and armywide asf.

    Dwarfs
    Mono build army, standard list is 2 organ guns, 2 cannons, 2 engineers, 2 stubborn blocks(hammerers and longbeards both s6), 2 runesmiths with destroy scrolls, bsb and gyrocopters. Occasional variation but not much, still sits in a corner and gets 10+.

    Empire
    Two dominant builds the 1+ wall and the light/death coven counter attack. Expect demis, cannons, a tank, chaff knights and either a halberd bunker with waraltar or knight bus with runefang(s). Things to watch out for Van horstmanns speculum, mEngineer with helblaster, buff carts giving extra magic dice.

    High elves
    3 builds here(oooh such choice) Monster mash, cav bus( may feature monsters but max2) and infantry. Expect silverhelms, 4 rbts, frosty(s) and banner of win in a deathstar of some form. Things to watch out for include cavPrince, Stardragon, book of hoeth lvl4, white lions, razor banner PG and seahelms swift reform when charged.

    Lizards
    Mirror match. Wandering or high slann, only real difference is full avoidance shooting or mostly avoidance shooting with a block of TG.

    Ogres
    Like high elves they will have a gutstar with mournfang/maneaters and iron blaster 3 sabre tusks and chaff. slaughtermaster + runemaw are almost a given, the choice is crown of command or hellheart. Things to watch out for include flying tyrant, firebellys, gnoblar trappers and gorgers.

    O&G
    Green dwarfs extreme mono build. 2 doom divers, 2 rock lobbas, 2 manglers, block of savages with shrunken head, trolls and chaff. watch out for fanatics, foot, hand and pumpwagons.

    Skaven
    Fairly standard infantry block army with lots of toys. expect 3 40s of slaves, 40ish storm vermin with the stormbanner, grey seer and some mixture of cannons, hellpits, doomwheels and the new super rat ogres. Things to look out for include the bell, doom rocket, brass orb, D13, Plague, wither, plague monks with furnace and plague banner and gutter runners.

    Tomb Kings
    Very meh army no one took them last year so unless special characters help dont expect to see them. common builds were light council and khalida archer spam. Tricks include casket, hierotitan, and killing blow on most things that fight.

    Vampires
    Screams and infantry or a cav bus. no really tricks bar the occasional hex wraith spam but comp stops the worst of it. expect swiftness skellies, crypt horrors and banshees with death.

    Warriors
    MSU combat with more supermen wannabes than most comic book conventions. 3++ on chaos lords, sorcerer lords and exalted heros, double demon prince is currently very strong, expect double skullcrushers, chimera and core chariots. No real tricks bar hellcannon shenanigans, they just run up and punch you in the face. Hard.

    Wood elves
    MSU shooty avoidance with wild riders. expect mobile wizards, 21ish wild riders in various configurations, waywatchers, trueflight and poison core. Things to watch out for include waystalkers, moonstone, sisters of thorn bunker, ambushing glade riders.
     
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  2. Irish_Lizard
    Saurus

    Irish_Lizard Member

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    Part 2: Tools to build

    If your going through hell, keep going - Winston Churchill

    Well done on making it through the first part. This section covers how to ensure you have an answer to most things that were mentioned in the first part, while still having a legal army that fits under the comp.

    The dreaded comp
    May select up to 5 choices from the pool below:
    -If the total points spent on all lords and heroes is greater than 50% of the armies
    points 1 pool choice
    - If the total points spent on all lords and heroes is greater than 60% of the armies
    points 1 further pool choice
    - Slann Mage Priest – 1 choice
    -Discipline of Harmonic Convergence – 1 choice
    -Slann Mage Priest taking the Lore of Death – 1 choice (Slann Mage Priests with the
    Wandering Deliberations do not count towards this)
    -Each coldone mounted saurus character after the first – 2 choices
    - Each flying unit/character after the third – 1 choice
    -Each unit of core skirmishers after the third 1 choice
    - Each skink cohort after the third 1 choice
    - Lord Kroak 2 choices (includes 1 for being a Slann Mage Priest)
    - Tetto’Eko 3 choices

    May take any Lizardmen special characters


    Rough guidelines include, not going over 50% characters, the special characters are questionable(the good ones cost too many pool choices), the all singing, dancing avoidance list is going to have to lose something. The standout choices are the first 2 mounted vets/oldbloods, Slann on wandering or high, 3 flyers, 3 core skrimishers, 3 cohorts.
    Other good choices which are not comped include saurus characters on foot, camo skinks and salamanders.

    Core
    The core section is pretty narrow, we have 4 options saurus(unplayable in this environment), skrox(difficult to make work with few good matchups), basic cohorts(solid fire bases), skirmishers(probably the one of the best core units). 3 cohorts and 3 skrimishers could be set up like below:

    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    20 Skink Cohort: Musician
    20 Skink Cohort: Musician
    18 Skink Cohort: Musician
    530
    This is just short of the magic 600, while we can increase unit sizes doing so to reach the 600 mark will reduce efficiency. Possibly a large unit of skrimishers could act as slann bunker in a list without TG. Personally I use one of the pool choices here to take a 4th unit of skrimishers. Any other core setups which can work under this would be great to know and I'd be delighted to add them. This does give us a solid core with 98 quick-to-fire poison shots, 40 of which skirmish along with 7 drops which arent worth much.However since this year the ETC have added scenarios which require fortitude, dropping 4 skinks lets us add 2 banners for blood and glory and king of the hill. This core will fit into any competitive list.

    Final Core
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    18 Skink Cohort: Standard Musician
    18 Skink Cohort: Standard Musician
    18 Skink Cohort: Musician

    Characters
    First of take a slann, the only reason you could possibly not is if you were taking tetto with scroll caddys. wandering or high is a matter of preference. Both provide a range of answers to almost any situation. slann kit is optional and whether or not you take the 3 5+ channels will depend on whether or not you have the pool points. MR 2 is good to fit in here as it means your slann is safe from death and between auto passing los in TG and the ETC giving los against the big spells, the only way the slann is dying is if every last temple guard goes too(bar the last 4 rank and file).

    Quick recap, before moving on to the more flexible choices in the list. We've spent about 1000 points maybe less and used up 2 of our 5 pool choices. We can deal with low armour big monsters, we can deal with light chaff, we can even deal with one or 2 big slow infantry blocks. We have a flexible level 4 but no scroll. We also lack any combat ability to either mop up units or hold off a rush or board sweep. We will also struggle to deal with the flying supermen which are always popular. We also need a way to bust armour as magic cannot deal with a 1+ empire wall or bret lances or a warriors army alone.

    We can fix the scroll by adding a skink priest caddy to carry it, this also helps our slann cast more efficiently by improving the range arc and ability to cast out of combat. To deal with armour and super men the lizard book has 3 answers, sharpened horn ancient stegs, scar vet and oldbloods on coldones and razor banner temple guard. Adding one scar vet will cost us 0 pool choices and fits any build. The exact kit-out is personal preference but armor of destiny and a GW or sword of might, dawnstone, charmed shield are my two go to options for my first vet. I would highly recommend using 2 pool choices to get a second scar vet(or oldblood) on cold one but that is optional.

    To deal with warmachines we need to include chameleon skinks, rippers or terradon riders. Flyers are comped so there is a soft max of 3 while chameleon skinks are ignored( be grateful to the nice AR!) so i would put 2 units of 5 chameleon skinks in any list. This also limits the rush armies as they can be used to block off vanguards. Add a salamander to roast infantry units and provide flaming and we are done with the generic list.

    Generic list

    Slann BSB Wandering MR2
    Scar vet armour of destiny, CO, GW
    Skink priest scroll
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    18 Skink Cohort: Standard Musician
    18 Skink Cohort: Standard Musician
    18 Skink Cohort: Musician
    5 chameleon skinks
    5 chameleon skinks
    Salamander

    1439

    Finishing it off
    We have a bit under 1000 points left to play with and have a list that can hold its own in the magic phase, own the shooting phase and has some combat threat while still being highly mobile. Personally I prefer to add some combat punch at this stage as 1 scar vet cant be everywhere and only has 2 wounds. Add in 24 temple guard with full command and the razor banner and suddenly we can handle armour better and mop up the units which are depleted by our shooting. We also gain that super safe bunker for the slann. However they are slow so I will now get that second GW scar vet (usually 5++ and OTS or 5++ and 2++ vs flaming) to hunt monstrous cav and provide a fast moving durable unit that hits hard.

    Essentials
    Slann BSB Wandering, MR2, Ironcurse Icon
    Scar vet armour of destiny, CO, GW
    Scar vet armour of fortune, dragonbane gem, CO, GW
    Skink priest scroll 90
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    18 Skink Cohort: Standard Musician
    18 Skink Cohort: Standard Musician
    18 Skink Cohort: Musician
    24 Temple Guard Full command Razor banner
    5 chameleon skinks
    5 chameleon skinks
    Salamander

    1999

    With 400 points left it is now a matter of personal taste. A second scroll caddy boosts the defence against magic and in environment where magic decides tight games a second scroll can be fantastic. Skink chiefs on terradons can get a 2+ save and flaming ward for 90ish points and answer elf light cav and the mirror match very well in addition to being a great counter to warmachines(drop last + vanguard). Rippers and terradons can also fit in here for the same reasons. Oldbloods on foot can get a 1+ with ease and make the temple guard even harder as well as carrying a magic weapon, they also dodge the comp on cold one riders. More shooting can be added in the form of more chameleon skinks and salamanders. Magic can be improved by tooling up the slann, standard of discipline or swiftness also work.

    Full list

    Slann BSB Wandering, MR2, Ironcurse Icon
    Oldblood LA, enchanted shield, Sword of striking
    Scar vet armour of destiny, CO, GW
    Scar vet armour of fortune, CO, GW
    Skink priest scroll
    Skink chief terradon, LA, Shield, Spear,Dragonhelm
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers: Lustrian javelin; Shield
    18 Skink Cohort: Standard Musician
    18 Skink Cohort: Standard Musician
    18 Skink Cohort: Musician
    24 Temple Guard Full command Razor banner
    5 chameleon skinks
    5 chameleon skinks
    5 chameleon skinks
    Salamander
    Salamander

    2399
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
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  3. Putzfrau
    Troglodon

    Putzfrau Member

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    great post. very informative!
     
  4. airjamy
    Razordon

    airjamy Active Member

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    Good read indeed, i just think that the TK might have a bit of a resurface because of the buffs they got with ETC (no more hierophant, they can now march) , but they might still be not competetive enough. I take it that these examples come from tournament play?
     
  5. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

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    Hello,

    great read and very in depth analysis on the subject. Love what you have done here. I also think that you have everything spot on here to make the best out of the Lizardmen under the ETC restrictions. :)

    I got few comments or observations though but they might just be more of a personal preference. First of all the slann. I think you’re version is very solid but I think the 5+ channels are just so strong that you almost can’t not take them. If you are not taking the channels then I don’t really see the point in taking the skink priest as you can equip the scroll to your slann and save up points there for additional anything. The vassal rule is handy but not necessary in my eyes. Also your final list “only” utilizes 4 out of 5 choice so the channels should fit nicely. I don’t really know if the MR2 is all that necessary since death magic is so heavily comped under these restrictions that I don’t see it as a threat. Most of the scary spells against the temple guard won’t allow ward saves anyway.

    You could also go for 3x20 cohorts with fc and 3x10 skirmishers for minimum core. I did thought this being the good option quite long but after pondering it further I think the extra unit of skirmishers is really good. Besides I don’t really see any other place to spend the last pool choice to. You always want atleast the two mounted saurus characters and then a slann which then leaves only 2 additional choices and that is rather awkward number to fill. Technically you could say that you have only 3 choices from the pool to make ;) Although I think it is not necessary to fill all the choices.

    You mentioned the soft comp of max 3 fliers. I agree on this. However I feel that you never really need more than the three units. Therefore I feel that the terradons vs. chameleons is more a choice of a preference. I usually take the two units of terradons first as I like their movement much more.

    On a other side note I think that the current restrictions are rather silly for Lizardmen. I might be generalising but in order for one to make a competitive Lizard list you need the slann. No questions asked. Therefore I feel that we have only a pool of 4 instead of 5. I do understand that they wanted to make it pool of 5 atleast for the show since every other race has 5 too (some exceptions). I do however think that slann is worth of the 1 choice since he is much better than “just a normal level 4” due to all bonuses for TG and the free 4+ ward save and 5 wounds.

    The comp for mounted characters is just plain overcomping. As someone said there is not many hard hitters in our army and scar-veterans are usually our only win conditions. But then again they perform so well since we have options to take skinks. Just like everything else. I feel that maybe 1 choice for each could be better than the current. So taking two would count as two choices and three as three choices.

    Now when we take into account the comments regarding the two previous comp lines I feel that they have essentially soft banned tetto’eko and kroak. They just take up too many choices when our mounted characters are so expensive. I think that the comp for them is rather ok and if they would be one less they would cost too little choices.

    I feel that all the other lines in the comp pack are spot on though. This might be the best and most balanced comp pack they have produced in a while for both the lizardmen and also for every other army also. So everything considered I think they have done rather good job on this one.

    Right, now that if someone has taken the time to read through the wall of text I produced please keep in mind that I have never played in the actual ETC tournament and I’m not part of our nations team. We just use the comp pack here between my friends as standard and I have mostly just played in tournaments with the comp pack. Also note that all of this is just my own rambling and personal opinions. :)

    Once again though thanks for the great read up and contribution on the subject Irish_Lizard. I did actually read the topic earlier but I didn’t want to comment on half finished product and wanted to wait till you finished the text. :)

    BR
    Agrem
     
  6. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Have etc been updated with the new end time Rule? With extra lord allowance.
     
  7. Skinquisitor
    Kroxigor

    Skinquisitor Member

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    Yes, the hero and lord allowance is 50%, minimum 25% core, max 50% spec, max 25% rare.
     
  8. rantapanda
    Kroxigor

    rantapanda Member

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    Good posts I say.
    I surely agree, the overcomp on Co Saurus characters is quite - unreasonable. I believe, and hope, they will remove it. As said twice now, they are good, but since not many things in our guys really pack a punch they are really necessary for the army. Funny is as well how both a scarvet and an oldblood cost same amout of comp points? Basicly you want to go for 2 oldbloods (if pointwise possible), rather than scarvets.
    They are basicly just banning the Scarvet bus list. yay.

    Then
    Slann 1 point, Channeling 1 point, Lore of Death 1 point
    So a Channeling slann with lore of death = 3 comp points. Really!?
    I somewhat can understand the channeling and lore of death, but how does slann cost a comp points. Slann isnt that great on its own. Slann needs its channels to be really anything special. And then its total of 2 comp points.

    2 points on Kroak and 3 points on Tetto also is alot. Id understand 1 point and 2 points.
    How much is a Chaos Lord on a disk, with 3+ ward, reroll 1's. Yes, 2 points. Now what were they thinking..

    The core comps are quite good. Goal has probably been to abolish crazy MSU armies the lizardman can bring. And it surely weakens such lists. Altough you can still take chamos, swarms etc to do such tasks for you instead. But youd might want to use the special lot someway else.
     
  9. Skinquisitor
    Kroxigor

    Skinquisitor Member

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    My first thought was the same: ban coc bus. The slann is obviusly overcosted, like the other ones. I dont mind the skinks and cohort, every year they were limited just like this. Basically, I totally agree you everything you mentioned.

    My response to these comp rules was this:
    http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15694
     
  10. Madrck
    Temple Guard

    Madrck Member

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    Incredibly good post mate. Well written and well thought out.

    The only thing I think your missing is the possibility of rare abuse that they have let slip through.
    Once your list hits 1999 points I think your missing what might be our power build in ETC.
    That being a unit of 6 razors. With focus of mystery you get WBW and the +1-3 on their BS.
    This is a unit that if in short range(9" or less) is close to unchargable (WBW) or with +1BS(hand of glory). They have a natural 5++ thanks to the million handlers you have. They are also as strong as most MI. S5 T4 I4 with 3 wounds each and you never eat skinks when you stand and shoot(well it's rare and there's so many)

    Might also be worth taking a unit of 4 Sallies since it would then only take one round of breathing(WBW) on any infantry block or trolls to make it go away. But this would be more of a meta choice.

    I also agree with the the channel combo. In a power build it's not a real choice if you want to win. It gives such a ridiculous dominance in both casting and dispelling.
     
  11. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

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    I guess the consensus is then to max out competitiveness you're list starts of with slann with channels and double cold one characters which then effectively leaves you with just one extra choice to make. This is what then in theory soft bans the Kroak and Tetto'eko from the lists. I think the last choice will then be the extra unit of skirmishers or cohorts.

    I'm not really sure about the razordon build. Atleast on paper that doesn't really seem that powerful to me. Let's assume that we get the BS buff on. That'll give average of +2. I would also argue that the razordons are usually at -1 to hit from various reasons meaining that they'll hit on 4+. The artillery averages to 5 shots per 'don (more when S&S) which then makes 30 shots and 15 hits in total. This will then transfer into 10 wounds against T3 and 7,5 wounds against T4 targets. Less if they have any kind of a save. In reality though you have to remember that this involves bucket loads of dice throwing so the results will vary quite a bunch. But to me this options just doesn't feel so appealing. Also with so much high asv things running around it's actually rather easy to make the charge. Maybe the mental threat is greater than the actual then.

    On a slight of topic that popped into my mind. If you field 4 salamanders in a 2x2 formation for whatever reason are you allowed to shoot the rear two since it technically has a chance to hit the frontmost models?

    BR
    Agrem
     
  12. Skinquisitor
    Kroxigor

    Skinquisitor Member

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    Im not sure the channel build is a default, since there is a channel/max dice cap on etc. This year, they are softer, but they are still there.
     
  13. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

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    But then again the build is only not effective when you roll double sixes for winds of magic. Other times it should just give you the extra dice.

    BR
    Agrem
     
  14. Skinquisitor
    Kroxigor

    Skinquisitor Member

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    If you roll 3 5+, one is lost :) You can channel up to 2 dices each phase. Previous years dispell scroll used up 1 channel, and other magic items reduced the max2 channel aswell. Thats why im saying the current rules are softened, yet i dont think 1 pd and 1 dd worth 1 choice. But thats just my opinion, I think this should remain a personal preference question.
     
  15. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

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    That's true, good points. :)

    And yes +1pd/dd/turn might be a bit overcomping also. But then again after Tetto'eko, skirmish spam and mounted saurus characters there isn't much that really needs to be comped. Which makes it so that some of the comp lines seem a bit forced.

    BR
    Agrem
     
  16. deeyo
    Skink

    deeyo New Member

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    Hello wonderful post,
    What have changed with special characters allowed for our opponents?
    Do you have any links for other forums ETC list examinations?
    thx
     
  17. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    While BM is not the favored army to play with in a tournament do watch out for them still. Sloguetongue is just downright nasty against MSU armies. He's a lvl2 mage, with regeneration, Lore of Wild/Death and lame combat stats. HOWEVER he have one trick up his sleeves that'll fvck you up:
    After deployment, but before the game starts every unit within 36" will have to take a "test". on 1-3 nothing happens, but 4-5 you take D3 wounds no armour save and 6+ you take D6 no armour save wounds.

    Elf bolthrowers have a good chance of just outright dying before the game starts because they are only 2 models each. His other rules aren't awesome so after deployment you're fine. Just do not put a cowboy outside a unit if you go up against him. Imagine doing D6 no armour save wounds on a monster or a deamon prince <.< :D
     
  18. Irish_Lizard
    Saurus

    Irish_Lizard Member

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    The 50% changes, special characters and the new units and restrictions have changed the things to fear and expect to face.

    The wall of nurgle is now more nurgly with 10 drones, 10 beasts, and PB block. Kairos and friends is ok but not optimal. The rugby team of chaos(not enough models for an army) is now the common warrior build with triple lord choices and at least 2 heroes. Tomb kings are stronger than ever with undeath and special characters(read Khalida). High elves are now either dragon+lvl4+lions or Teclis which is a massive shift from last years funbus. Empire is loving the emperor and Jack armstrong's 12 demi's and friends list. Kroak and/or tetto are in most lizard lists with the occasional double slann list, keeping with last years trend of a TG block. Both dwarves still sit in corners, Orcs do the same but even more so with the 100 gobbo poison unit with wurzag. VC are doing well with mannfred but its still the same old boring footbus. WE are average,high and shadow, lots of WR and shooting. DE are wrecking hobby with double dragon and shades are back in force, hellbron and morathi both see play. Ogres havent changed and aren't wildly popular. Skaven are still ruining games with and without stormfiends and have all their toys(silly etc comp). Brets have basically disappeared(like in the fluff).

    Think thats everyone, I can go into more detail if people want. Lists are due in Monday so I can post up a breakdown of mine and why I'm taking what I am on tuesday next week.
     

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