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AoS Can Chaos demons split when close to Saurus banner?

Discussion in 'Rules Help' started by Furnus, Jun 25, 2018.

  1. Furnus
    Skink

    Furnus Member

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    Hey guys,

    I was playing a game of Tzeentch vs Seraphon yesterday.

    I had gone full alpha and teleported a (buffed) 40-man block of Saurus Warriors and a 6-man Ripper squad, who all made their charge, into some Tzeentch demon frontlines.

    As you may imagine this caused a few battleshocks, especially amoung some pink horrors.

    He rolled their battleshock and rolled a 1. Now, normally, they get D6 units back on a battleshock roll of 1, but in this case the unit was within 5" of my Saurus Warriors' banner. This meant he had to add 1 to his battleshock roll.

    We then disagreed on whether my banner negated his ability to return D6 models, his argument being, that he had in fact rolled a 1 as required by the wording of the Pink Horror scroll.

    Any input?
     
    Crowsfoot likes this.
  2. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    Looking at the warscroll there is no mention of a unmodified or modified roll so I think he is right as he did roll "1"

    I'm not 100% so maybe @Aginor might be able to help.
     
  3. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    That's a tough one.

    I tend to say that the result of the roll was indeed 1 and your opponent's interpretation is more likely to be correct. There are arguments for both interpretations though.


    Here they are, for your viewing pleasure:

    Games workshop tends to tell you when they mean unmodified rolls, both in 40k (it is even in the core rules there) and AoS.

    Examples for that are the Knight Questor Warscroll, Locus of Shyish (ability in the LoN Battletome), the new Castigator and Sequitor warscrolls, and more.

    Especially interesting for that are Demon warscrolls though. For example the one of Plaguebearers.
    They have the same ability, but their warscroll says "unmodified".
    Bloodletters have the same as the Tzeentch guys, their ability omits the word "unmodified".

    The intention seems to be that the Demon player gets rewarded for rolling perfectly.


    So as often we have two truths I'd say:
    - Rules as written
    - Rules as intended

    RAW says modified result. Because GW tells you when they mean unmodified.***

    ***lately at least.

    RAI says all demons are very likely meant to be the same in that regard. The newer warscrolls (Nurgle Battletome is newer than the others) have a clearer version and the others just aren't corrected yet.


    In my opinion they should be unmodified rolls.
     
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  4. Stevie754
    Skink

    Stevie754 Member

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    The ruling is abilities trigger after modifiers, you modified the roll to be a 2 so the ability does not go off.
    Similar to giving units that do mortal wounds on a 6 minus 1 to hit, that roll becomes a 5 and the mortal wound ability would not trigger.
     
    Furnus and ILKAIN like this.
  5. ILKAIN
    Temple Guard

    ILKAIN Active Member

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    Per 2 players (one of them Tzeetch) that have been playing Warhammer since the 80's or so (they are our resident old guys at the shop) the roll is a 2 as the way Stevie said it. order of operations is roll, re-rolls, check modifiers, check for ability trigger, do ability.
     
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  6. Furnus
    Skink

    Furnus Member

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    Just to follow-up on the above. Now with the erreta out, they've corrected the wording to correspond with Plague Bearers:

    Page 122 – Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, Icon Bearer Change the last two sentence to: ‘If the unmodified roll for a battleshock test for a unit that includes any Icon Bearers is 1, you can add D6 models to that unit, and no models from that unit will flee in that battleshock phase.
     
    Killer Angel likes this.
  7. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Yeah, they did a good thing specifying that, because frankly the way it was worded it would have been the modified roll.
     
  8. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Yep. And this way all the demons do it the same way as well, which is good.
     

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