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Tutorial Carnosour Tactica (including dual Carno Tactica)

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by ZaGreekie, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

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    I am working on a updated dual Carno tactica for "9th Age warhammer" fantasy if you like dual Carno in 9th age not only is it a competitive list but myself and friends have won grand tournaments with 50+ players using dual carno. once tactica is up to a presentable level it will be posted and a link will be added here.



    This Tactica is based on my personal experience with Carnos in tournaments i hope everyone finds it helpful!

    This is the first Tactica I have ever written here and there is a bit of a story to "Why" I felt I should write it, after all my English grammar is I swear too much and spelling is worse. The story goes through my experience at last month’s regional tournament that I was at. Anyway most people may not be interested but for those who are, it is at the end of the Tactica.

    Carno = "Anti Hammer"
    First thing i want to go into is how I see the Carno. Carnos are "Anti Hammers" with 5 S7 attacks they eat heavy cav, and whatever is left the rider can easily deal with. Do not under estimate their abilities; I have had my Carno eat 4 juggernauts in 1 combat. D3 wounds do A LOT of damage, do not underestimate it.


    Now to start getting into tactics I like to use the Carno for. Going from simplest to most creative:
    A Carno does not have one use, it can be used for many things both offensive and defensive oddly enough.

    "Cowboy"
    1) A Cowboy on a Carno can be used same as you do a normal cowboy, it’s more expensive but it also does a lot more damage.

    "Support Hammer"
    2) They work VERY well as a supporting Hammer to a Saurus anvil due to their S7 Thunderstop and Terror, with Blood Roar you can reduce the enemy unit to WS1 quite often, and that means your Saurus are hitting on 3's and getting hit on 5's. Which is something us Lizardmen are not use to :smug:

    "The Jackhammer"
    3) Next is what I like to call the Jackhammer! If you can get 2 or 3 combats lines up in a row, then you can get the Carno to charge one of the flanks, then you have yourself the most beautiful thing aboutto happen. as it’s your combat you decide where to start, so Start with the unit on the flank that the Carno charged, theoretically with a Carno in the flank you should be able to make him break, and most likely with thunder stop the Carno will have done the most wounds and it will flee over into the next unit, now you pursue with your Carno, and hit the next unit, WHICH YOU HAVE NOT DONE THE COMBAT FOR! This means that the Carno will attack a SECOND TIME in the next combat and if you set it up PERFECTLY then you will massacre the second unit and run into the third! And attack a third time.

    "Terror"
    4) Terror is your friend, especially with Blood Roar you can force most Ld 8 units to flee just by charging them even if you know you are not going to make the charge. if you get them to flee you once, you can then charge them again with some taradons and as they are already fleeing the only thing they can do is flee more! And if you plan it well enough you can get a unit to run right off the table. It is a bit complicated at the start but it gets easier to do once you get used to how and when to use it.

    "Terror Advanced class"
    5) Now with the terror you can also do a fun trick which works well against stuff that you have trouble killing i.e. empire knights that all have a 1+ save. Before you force them to take the terror tests, put a unit of flyers behind them, so if when they fail they are forced to flee through your unit forcing a dangerous terrain test.
    I forced a unit of 12 Brettonians to do that and 3 died, that’s one less rank for them. And if you really think you can force them to flee then you can put the flyers facing the other way so after the unit flees then the flyers charge again; most likely running them off the table or overrunning them considering they are M 10 with swift stride.

    Important note with the Terror tactics if you charge, and the enemy fails there test and flees remember to redirect your charge to the next unit and see if you can get them to flee to!


    "BSB & General on Carno"
    6) This is personally how i love to play, a lot of people think its useless, but now with our Rippers, having a 18" BSB and leadership bubble for your frenzy tests IS YOUR FRIEND! Do not under estimate how much area you can cover with a 18" bubble, and with M7 you can easily boost the leadership or give BSB support anywhere on the table easily.


    "Sneaky trick for 1" free moment and better cannon defense"
    7) As a monster the carnosour can pivot for free as much as it wants, and now as it has a long base this means that if you deploy it facing sideways at the end of your deployment zone, on your turn pivot it on the spot to face forwards, and you just gained 1" of free moment because you have not "use any of your movement" you just pivoted which you can do as much as you want! also facing the wide side of your carno at the enemy is good as it makes it much easier for enemy cannons to overshoot/undershoot you as they have only a 50mm deep area to hit instead of a 100mm .


    "Target Saturation"
    8) What I mean by this is, if you have only 1 carno, EVERYTHING will shoot at that carno and kill it. but if you have a carno and 2 stegadons for example, shooting will start to get divided between them, and there is a much higher chance that all of them survive where as with only 1 carno chances that it survives something like a Dwarven or Empire Gunline is very slim, but the more targets you give the enemy the more they divide fire, and more often then not everything will make it in to combat missing 1 or 2 wounds instead of 1 thing just dieing outright.

    Thunder-stomp important thing most people forget
    9) One thing i have seen alot of people forgetting or miss understanding is when stomp happens. Stomp has the "Always strikes last" special rule which means that it goes at the same time as great weapons NOT AFTER! So if your Carno gets destroyed by a unit with great weapons the carno still gets his Stomp. which can make a huge difference to combat resolution.

    Because of this i run my oldblood with a great weapon, so when i get into challenges just to make extra sure that i get the 5 estra wounds for combat resolution, my carnos thunder-stop and my oldblood go at the same time. (remember in a challenge you can do up to 5 extra wounds but only in the same initiative stage, so if the oldblood kills him at I3 the always strike last thunder-stop will not get to hit even if the oldblood only did 1 extra wound, you loss those extra D6 hits.

    "Mitigating Cannons"
    This is a very important element to keeping your Carnos alive, to anyone considering running a list with carnos i recommend you read this http://www.lustria-online.com/threa...to-fight-cannons-updated-with-responds.13048/ Especially A Steaming Kroak's Post he gives a lot of good tips of what you can do.

    "The Mind Games"
    Last thing i want to explain is not how Carnos "play" but how the Affect the enemy mentally.

    They are everything magnets, the enemy will poo themselves and want to kill them as fast as possible. Think of it almost like Frenzy but for the enemy player. This can be used to your advanced because even the most experienced players can get this tunnel vision. This is ideal for your fast units, like Rippers, you can get them behind enemy lines and start causing havoc because all the enemy can think about is trying to kill your Carnos. The next thing he knows you have cleared out most of his supporting units and you have 2 nice melee blocks arriving on his front door untouched.

    (i know it sounds simple, or almost too good to be true, but it happens, my first match of the tournament I won because of this, my Carnos did nothing but draw fire and hide and take turns getting hit)

    In closing i would like to say that each and every one of the things a Carno can do, another unit can do them better. the reason why i still argue that a Carno is competitive is because it can do ALL of the above.



    Last but not least, the history behind why I felt I needed to write this Tactica.

    Carnosaurs are one of those things we have had in our books for a while, and last month I went to my regional tournament and out of 100 qualified players, there was 20 Lizardmen. There was a total of 2 Carnosours. Both of them mine in my romantic Dual Carno list... Every time I placed my tray with my army on the next table my opponent smile with joy and giggled as if I had just gifted him the game, and he was already calculating by how much he could beat me so that he would end up at the first table.

    *Thoughts I was having up until now in the tournament: I am a lone Lizard in my local club, and my team as well; I have not met another decent lizardmen player since 6th ed. So right now I was so happy to see other lizards I was chatting to them in between every match trying to learn from them. (I have played A LOT of warhammer but you can never learn too much) and every single one said that I was just begging to get brutalized showing up to a tournament with a Carno, let alone 2! so I started to get worried and believe them, "What if they really are crap and I just have been so in love with them I never realized it"*

    Now what happened in this tournament is what made me decided to step up and defend the Carno in all its glory to my fellow Generals of our wonderful race.

    I felt I did fairly well, I had some great games, some decent games and 1 not so great game (the enemy's only defense was to waste time, we spent 6 hours playing 2 turns... eventually the arbitrators said we would both be disqualified if we did not finish the game, and the only way I could get him to do that is if I gifted him a minor victory.)

    Anyway I'm rambling on, The moment of truth, I made friends with a lot of the other lizardmen players so at the awards ceremony I was hanging out and chatting with them, and they were all teasing me and joking around saying that I would win the "Spoon of Shame" (worst player), or that I should win it with such a stupidly romantic army list.

    Then the creepy guy with the beard spoke....

    He said: Best Lizardmen general goes to!..... ZAGREEKIE!!!!!! (i finished 14th out of 100 qualified players, my team walked away with 1st, 3rd, and best army overall it was a good day)

    I don't know who was more shocked honestly, me or the other Lizardmen players.

    So I go up, take the prize, all that stuff and as I am walking back to my seat (Ego expanding RAPIDLY) I ask the other lizardmen players “So what do you have to say NOW about Carnos! I bet I’ll see a lot more of this next year" *insert snide chuckle*

    They all responded... "No... It’s a bad list and Carnos suck and are not competitive..."

    0.o

    o.0

    o.o

    -.-

    So the only logic I can come up with is that because so few people use them, no one ever thought "how" to use them.

    If you did read all of this Tactica and Story behind why I wrote it thank you :)

    And if you did not and just read the basic Tips and Tricks I REALLY hope that you try them out a bit and maybe next year less people will laugh at a dual Carno list. ;)



    This is my first tactica i really hope it was helpful and i will go updating it with other uses that i come up with for them or that other people have come up with please! There is no better cause then making dinosaurs more useable!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  2. totzro
    Kroxigor

    totzro New Member

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    Great tactica and I loved the story! Since I have painted one of the new nice carnos I've decided to make the most of it.
    So far I really like him, and I'llbe sure to test out your tricks. The terror flee shenaniganz sounds awesome.
    How do you field your carno, on a scar vet or old blood? Which items do you take?
    How do you pair him up with a slann?
     
  3. Haemoglobin
    Ripperdactil

    Haemoglobin 9th Age Army Support

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    I am also very interested in trying lists that include Carnos! Would you mind sharing the list you took to that tournament?
     
  4. rking300
    Jungle Swarm

    rking300 New Member

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    I too would love to see your list.
    thanks,
     
  5. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

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    xD I dont, i know its hard to imagen a lizardmen list without a slann, but my turnoment list is dual carno.

    General
    Oldblood
    Crown of command
    Armour that gives 4+ ward save
    luck stone

    greatweapon
    carno with looping stride and blood roar


    BSB
    scar vet
    Talasman of protection (4+ ward)
    Charmed sheild to ingnore the first cannon

    Light armour.
    Sheild
    Spear
    Carno with looping stride and blood roar



    Then i have 2 skink preast scrole caddies, to support and buff with Beasts (but no spell ever gets threw unles its dubble 6's
    C
     
    Lizardmen!! likes this.
  6. Silverbolt
    Temple Guard

    Silverbolt Active Member

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    What a great read! Like others have said, please include your army list so we can learn more!
     
  7. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    +1.

    A list would be awesome. And at home many points? 2500?
     
  8. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Is this just a mistake or have you listed 1 oldblood and 2 scar vets? It's just a little confusing :)
     
  9. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

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    Sorry its 1 oldblood as general, and 1 scarvet as BSB

    ill post my full list in a bit.
     
  10. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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  11. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

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    My full list that i used was as fallows

    General oldblood
    Armour of 4+ ward
    crown of command
    luckstone
    greatweapon
    Carno looping stride , blood roar

    BSB scarvet
    Talsimin of 4+ ward
    charmed sheild
    spear
    Carnosour, Looping stride (i did not have enough points for blood roar will not make this mistake again)

    Skink lvl2
    scrole

    Skink lvl1
    cube



    24 saurus HW+S
    standerd
    musition

    24 saurus HW+S
    standerd
    musition

    11 skink cohort with standard (for the blood and glory mission)


    2 Basiliadons

    3x 3 Rappirs

    1x 3 Taradons

    and thats it
     
    Lizardmen!! and Meleemadness like this.
  12. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    You used the two bastiladon to buff the initiative of the two carnosaurs?
     
  13. totzro
    Kroxigor

    totzro New Member

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    That's and really interesting list with lots of flyers. I can see how it's tailored for your flee redirecting tactic.
    The build with chamed shield and talisman of preservation is a proper one and I will use it for my next list. Thanks for that!

    I like my slann and the magic diversity he brings so I gonna keep playing with him for a while at least. The biggest reason for taking another carno at the moment is because I don't have one XD

    How do you find playing without any skirmishers?
     
  14. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

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    it was more of a experiment to not use skermishers. as i alredy had alot of flying chaff. and i have nothing against Slanns, i used one yesterday. but i am in love with the carno i have been sence 6th ed. and i relize that i would rather get massacred using a dual carno list then have a minor victory with a slann. just personal prefernce.

    The no skermishers and 2 basiliadons was more of a test drive of basiliadons to see what they are like but honestly you only need 1 for the points cost, i use them to boost the I and to give me another tarror causing charge now and then.

    i have updated my list now to have only 1 basiliadon and 2 skermishers with javalins considering they can march and shoot without a -1 modifier (long argument that lasted in my team for 3 weeks untile finaly we called up gamesworkshop itself to sort it out, i forget exactly what the rules wording was but in the end GW told us that "Skermishers or fast cav if they have 'quick to fire' weapons can march and shoot without any -1 to there role to hit"

    This means you can march and be shooting on 5's with javelins where as you march and are hitting on 6's with blowpipe, and thats before shooting multishot.

    And i find the 4+ special with the charmed sheild can survive ALOT
     
  15. Haemoglobin
    Ripperdactil

    Haemoglobin 9th Age Army Support

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    I'll definately try that list out sometime. I love the Carnosaur models and fluff for years now and it was a shame that they usually got oneshot by my mostly cannonusing adversaries. Not to mention all of the conversion possibilities on those huge carno models.

    Thanks for the list and tactics man!
     
  16. Pofadder
    Cold One

    Pofadder New Member

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    Hey ZAGreekie,

    Thank you for the tactica, some very useful information in there. I love your list, its bold!

    If I may ask, did you find keeping your carnosaurs alive in combat difficult? Because rarely will an opponent target the Oldblood or scar-vet. As you stated your skink priests were there as caddies and rarely get the wildform etc off, unless they roll doule 6's. The bastildons were used mostly for the Beam of Chotec? and to buff ini on your saurus blocks?

    Reason I ask is to ascertain how you implement your tactics and strategies...Against many opponents like WoC etc the troops or monsters can kill a carnosaur mount before it gets to attack on I2(because putting 5 wounds on a T5 monster with 4+ SS is very easy).

    Do you play support mostly? Thus keeping it in Basti buff range to give it a I3 and use your terror tactics as support hammer mostly?

    I desperately want to find an ally in our carnosaur, but in my games have found in combat the mount gets killed very easily leaving the hero/lord to get stomped or run / down.

    I know I can take an OB with crown, but 1st would like to try and make the scar-vet on carno work, I will also not make him BSB to start with until I feel more confident in his survival.
     
  17. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

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    Honestly the in the training matches Vs my team the carnos die alot oddly enough in the tournament i only lost 1.

    the most important thing i cannot empfasie enough is hitting flanks, remember, there is no parry save or supporting ranks on the flank, so that means worst case sinario you got 4 Worrior hitting you thats only 8 attacks, thats not enough to kill the carno in one turn 2 maybe, but even that requires some bad luck.

    There is a important thing to remember tho unless they kill the rider as well they don't get the points for it. and well even a scar vet that has a 3+ save with a 4+ ward save is pretty hard to kill.

    the main thing is to know when you are suiciding your carno. you will need to do it some times, just try to make it worth wile, they are hands down Glass Cannons. and i say that i never get a spell off but i managed to get some off in the turnoment, including the +3 S +3 attakes, which effects the mount and rider. and man a carno with 8 S10 attakes and a S10 thunderstop was beautiful xD thats before mentioning the oldblood with 8 attakes S10 that generate more attakes on 6;s xD that just the enemy apart. luckly aswell becouse i just got flanked by 6 Kroxigors xD so thoes 9 attakes ripped the unit to bits.

    But back to your point, i try and keep them I3 as much as posible, and hit flanks, and yes use them to support they can really rip a hole in enemy lines and then a beautiful rear or flank from a carno + a unit of Saurus in the front can take out anything even the most elite of troops.

    Also DO NOT FORGET YOUR CHALLANGES!!!!!

    the reason my gen has a great weapon is so the carno attacks before him. so the enemy thinking he is being smart and protecting his unit from the thunderstop excepts the challenge with his champion. but then the carno does 3 wounds, which cause D3 wounds (remember you can cause up to 5 extra wounds in a challenge) so i walk away winning combat by 6 wounds + charge

    the reason for the great weapon is because IF my gen kills the champion in his initiative faise then the carno will not get to attack as the target is alredy dead. but if the carno goes first then i can get the D3 wounds to save me in combat resolution.

    this is also a great way of getting rid of Frenzy in enemy units.

    This trick only works once so use it wisely once the champion is dead there is nothing to challenge,
     
  18. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I'm pretty sure the d3 wound trait won't work on one wound unit champions, but I don't think a Canrosaur needs that to get lots of overkill.
     
  19. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

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    this is a good point i dont know where the rules stand, the arbitrators at the tournament sided with me that they do, the logic behind it is"

    every wound the Carno causes does D3 wounds, but vs single wound infantry there is no point in rolling the D3 as you cannot kill it any more then it already is dead.

    but for challenges the character is in a sense counted as having 5 extra wounds, which he can roll armor saves for as if he had them as real wounds. by that logic there is no reason why the D3 wounds could not cause overkill to.

    I'm not sure what the rules really are but no arbitrator has every argued against that for me.
     
  20. Dreadgrass
    Ripperdactil

    Dreadgrass Member

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    Have you thought about running a unit of Razordons in conjunction with the Carnosaurs? They can screen your dinos from cannons and take charges relatively well, allowing your carno's to counter-charge once the Razordons close ranks.

    You could also consider Egg of Quango instead of the crown on your OldBlood. It is triggered at the beginning of the combat and resolved against the unit, so can generate a bunch of combat res to help out with challenges etc. even more.

    Carnosaurs are definitely something I'm wanting to use. My problem is doing without the slann... I guess it's a matter of trading utility for raw hitting power...
     

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