Hi, with this new book, does a character mounted on a stegadon can be considered as a part of the crew because of substitution with one skink crew? If not, what is the point to get a mounted stegadon by a skink character who will have a 5+ save as ridden monster rule? Thanks
Its not counted as part of the model. A character on a stegadon (or any monster) gets: +1 to its armour for being mounted (does not use the armour save of the monster) can be targeted separately in combat. is hit on a 5+ against shooting except for cannons and stone throwers. Cannons hit both the rider and monster at full strength doing D6 wounds to them both. Stonethrowers do a S3 hit to the rider on a 1-4 and a S9 hit with D6 wounds on a 5+ (obviously in reverse for the stegadon) If you are asking whats the point of putting a skink on a stegadon ask yourself this, whats the point of 90% of the crap in this book
See I've been going over the rules and I'm pretty sure it is counted as part of the model. Look under Howdah Weapons. the character is only hit with a ranged attack on a 5-6, everything else refers to it as a normal part of the Howdah Skink Crew. When you're being attacked in CC you sue the mounts stats.
The death sentence is here: "Either a Stegadon or an Ancient Stegadon can be taken as a ridden monster for a Skink Chief or a Skink Priest who replaces one of the Skink Crew." Rules for "Ridden Monsters" in the rulebook are what makes it so very bad. I don't know, I might field a chief on a regular steg just for the BS5 Giant Bow shots if he turns out to count as part of the crew. It is doubtful GW will rule in our favor on this one though, the skink chief couldn't fire the bow in the last book. However, with High Elves so fresh in their minds, maybe...
Hmmm... Honestly there is no point to mount a Skink Chief or Priest on a Steg unless it gets the Howdah Crew rules. They will just die to easy.
Yeah, if the chief can be part of the crew, I'd throw him on a reg steg with a giant bow for a decent warmachine. Otherwise I just don't see it.
Zombie post... Rather than opening a new one. This came up last night. I interperated the rules that say he replaces one of the crew, therefore is part of the Howdah Crew and hence, the howdah rules apply to him. Does replacing one of the crew not put him in the howdah? Especially seeing as the engine of the gods no longer requires a priest to run it, it seems silly to replace the crew but not actually be on the howdah. From my understanding, if there is a conflict between the Rule Book and an Army Book, then the Army Book takes precedence.
I agree with NexS1. Given that the rule in question is part of the Howdah Crew special rule section, I think it's very safe to say that the Chief or Priest is part of the Howdah Crew and gets all the benefits of being in the Howdah. The Howdah Crew special rule replaces the Ridden Monster rules in this case. It also makes absolutely no sense from a fluff or visual perspective to have him not be part of the Crew.
There is no conflict. People get that idea wrong pretty much constantly. If the two rules can co-exist, as is the case here, they do. Conflict only comes up when one things directly opposes the other. Even with that aside, we have the already mentioned fact that even within this book it says it's a Ridden Monster. So, not only is there no conflict, but there's even a reminder to point you back to which rules you need to use.
If you take a look at LM book, it specifically states that a skink priest/cheif "replaces one of the crew". Crew being the keyword here. The only crew on a stegadon is the Howdah crew, hence the pointer to the howdah crew rules. I recall the rules stating that when you attack models in the howdah, you use the monster's WS, T and Save. The only thing they mention different is that a character can be hit by ranged attack on a 5+. I will go through both books again with a fine-tooth comb. But I (and others in my gaming cirlce) don't see where the beastie's save can't be used.. hmm... :/
I can see why you would consider otherwise - but the LM book clearly states him taking the Mount as a ridden monster, the rules for ridden monsters appear in the BRB and does not allow for the Monter's stats to be used. However - a clarification might be needed as the hero would be a part of the model, i believe this is what you're using to defend your angle. The statement "ridden monster" is enough for me to search through the army book - but if your gaming group is content to treat the character as part of the model in regards to the Howdah crew rules i won't stop you. I don't find the rules are much debatable, but that is probably out of some misguided certainty in my point of view. I can objectively see why you would believe otherwise.
The two parts of the rule that are important are: "The monster and its Howdah Crew have their own characteristics, but are treated as a single model.... All hits upon the model are resolved using the monster's T, W and Save" "A Stegadon can be taken as a ridden monster for a Chief or Priest who replaces one of the Skink Crew. In this case, shooting attacks against it will hit the monster on the D6 roll of 1-4 and the character on a roll of 5-6, as normal. Additionally, should the character be slain, there is no need to roll on the Monster Reaction table." The Ridden Monster rule says: "A character and his ridden monster can be attacked separately." Now, the writing of the Howdah rule is a great example of the terrible writing of GW books. Let me explain: "A Stegadon can be taken as a ridden monster for a Chief or Priest who replaces one of the Skink Crew". This seems to say 2 things: 1. Use the Ridden Monster rules (which means you can target the Chief separate from the Steg & Crew model) 2. "Replace a Skink Crew" so the Chief becomes a Skink Crew model and benefits from the Howdah and cannot be attacked (because all attacks against the model are attributed to the Stegadon) I think "replace one of the Skink Crew" is a fluffy way of saying: "When a Character is mounted on a Stegadon, remove one of the 5 Skink Crew models". Notice that "Skink Crew" is capitalized in the rule. It's not referring generically to "the crew of the monster that are skinks" but specifically to Skink Crew models. A Skink Chief is not a Skink Crew model, it is a Skink Chief model. There is no rule that says "a character becomes a Skink Crew". However, the part of the rule that specifies how the model works in Close Combat says: "All hits upon the model are resolved using the monster's Toughness, Wounds, and Save. In combat, enemy models compare their WS to the monster's WS when rolling to hit" Since that doesn't specify anything about the Skink Crew, it just says all attacks on the model go against the Stegadon. BUT, I think this part is overruled by the Ridden Monster rules. Next, it explains how shooting against the Stegadon works, which is exactly as explained in the Ridden Monster rules. Then it ends that sentence with "as normal" which seems to say "We just explained this rule, but it works as you would expect for a Ridden Monster" Are they specifying that "shooting attacks work as normal" because Close Combat attacks do NOT work as normal? (due to the character not being attackable because of the Howdah rules?) And finally, the last part: "If the character is slain, don't roll on the Monster Reaction table". Is shooting the only way to kill the character? I think the word "Additionally" is a poor choice if that is the case. I would have said "shooting attacks work as normal EXCEPT if the character is slain, don't roll on the reaction table". If characters riding a Stegadon follow the Howdah Crew rules for targeting, that means the Chief can't be targeted at all! The only way to kill the character would be with shooting or magic, and once the unit gets into combat, the chief is invincible! (If this is actually the case, then a Skink BSB on an Ancient steg with an Engine of the Gods would be amazing .. maybe with the Shield of Ptolos and/or the Obsidian Trinket to give him protection from the only things that can target him.) I don't think that's the case though.
Either way, there's too much hassle in it for me to be bothered with it all (hoping for an errata, perhaps?). And seeing that I only used to take a skink priest so that i could have EotG, i'll save myself 65 points and take it as rare! My current slann build is focus of mystery, so I can just cast something i don't want and swap it for wissans wildform. Arcane configuration is where it's at anyway! Charge > Bound spell (kill everything) > impact hits (kill more everything) > win combat. That's my plan haha
+1 to it "it's a ridden monster as per BRB" when a character is on it. Sadly. Since Wizards die hard in CC even on top of a giant lumbering monster. (I had a bunch of HElves fail to kill my SPriest on Ancient Steg, then their horses managed to bite a wound off him! I wanna know how they got up there!)
One tibit - The character is a replacement for the crewman, not a substitute. In other words, where you used to have a crew-skink, you now have something else replacing him. He's not a crewman at all. He's a character that has replaced the crew-skink.
Elf horses are Ninjas. The best reason to have a skink character take a Steggadon Ancient as a mount is that you've already used up all your rare points. -Matt
Valid. However, in my recent lists (as of when 8th ed lizzies came out), my rare percentage looked like this: 0% haha
Agree that the model now counts as a Ridden Monster, but I think there are additional rules in the Howdah Crew section which overrule the BRB. However, the language is so ambiguous as to make this something that is up for debate. Here's my spin. I wrote it all down so I could work out which side of the argument actually made sense to me The model becomes a Ridden Monster, for sure. Then it says the Skink Chief (or Priest) replaces one of the Skink Crew, meaning the rest of the Skink Crew remain on the Ridden Monster. So, it's now a Ridden Monster with 4 Skinks and 1 Skink Chief on its back. So, now we have the conflict between Army Book and Rulebook. "In this case, shooting attacks against it will hit the monster on the D6 roll of a 1-4, and the character on a roll of 5-6, as normal." Emphasis mine. It's those two words that cause the confusion. Because in the BRB, it explicitly states that if there are multiple models on the back of the monster, you randomize between monster and character, and then randomize between the models on the back. So either (a) you always hit the character and never the remaining 4 crewmen or (b) you randomize as normal and your character is less likely to get hit from shooting. I personally feel that option (b) doesn't really work because it seems like the Rule as Intended is "Treat the Stegadon as a Monster without any riders (but you get some extra attacks because of the Howdah skinks). However if you put a character on the back, treat it as a Ridden Monster, just like any other (but again with some extra bonuses because of the Howdah skinks)." The other possible conflict is between the rules for Ridden Monster in Close Combat and the Howdah Crew rule. The Howdah Crew rule explicitly states that the close combat attacks are done vs the monster, whereas the Ridden Monster rules allow you to split between monster and rider. I think this one is definitely where both rules can apply (as several other posters have mentioned), because any other interpretation wouldn't make sense - you'd end up not being able to attack the character at all in close combat. The thing I think that still is a question is do we use the Skink Chief's BS for firing the weapon when he's riding on it. He replaces one of the Skink Crew Sorry to have written such a long post, but the ambiguity was bothering me and I needed to think it all through. ~gwh
I think the biggest argument against the Chief being able to shoot the Stegadon weapons is that the rule says "up to two Skink Crew may each fire a single giant blowpipe" and "one of the Skink Crew may fire the giant bow" The important part is the capital letters. I believe Skink Crew is different than skink crew as the former is referencing the Skink Crew models that are included with the Stegadon (and are replaced by a Skink Chief) and the latter would be referring to the crew of the stegadon that are skinks (but all of the rules say Skink Crew, not skink crew). The Chief replaces a Skink Crew, but doesn't *become* a Skink Crew. Or maybe he does. In the previous edition the Chief wasn't allowed to fire the Stegadon weapons (this was a FAQ). Q. If a Stegadon is taken as a mount can the character’s BS be used when firing the howdah weapons? (p55) A. No. While, the FAQ is no longer up, it stands to reason that they would answer the question the same way otherwise they would have specifically said: "Skink Crew (including a Skink Chief or Skink Priest) can fire the weapon" There are other FAQs from the old edition that I think should still apply today. For instance: Q: When a unit with the Cold Blooded special rule is required to add or subtract additional dice for a Leadership test, how does it work? (p41) A: Take the test on however many dice it would normally be taken plus the extra dice from the Cold Blooded special rule and remove the highest. For example if a normal unit would take the test on 3D6 and add them together a Cold Blooded unit would roll 4D6, take away the highest and then add the remaining 3 dice together. Cold Blooded didn't change at all in the new edition. But since the FAQ is no longer up, does that mean this situation is up for debate again? Or do we keep using the old FAQ's interpretation? (Serious question, because I recently played against a TK player that wasn't convinced that this is how the rule should be played)
If they don't want players to use the BS of the chief for the bow, they should have put out those intructions. As it is, until there is a FAQ, paying 40 points to have 5BS instead of 3BS seems more than enough based on other point values. It is not forbidden (yet) and it makes the bow worth something, where's the harm? Anytime someone says "because its against the rules", remember you can always say the chief replaced the guy holding the giant bow, until they put out another FAQ that says different.