1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The April Poetry Contest has opened for voting! For more information, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

Tutorial Compilation of ways to fight cannons (updated with responses)

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Pinktaco, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    YOU DON'T LOSS YOUR MARCH MOVE IF YOU PIVOT A MONSTER AND IT DOES SAVE LIVES!!!!!!!!

    Sorry bit passionate about this now as i use the turning sideways tactic all the time and thing it is awesome and i have needed to argue the rules now 6 times in the past 3 days that monsters can pivot and march, so in reality you gain a extra 1 inch free (as its a long base if you pit it at the edge of your deployment zone then pivot on the center the front inch of your base is now acualy 13" away from the table edge not 12"). so there is absolutely no logical reason why not to do it unless you plan on charging the first turn.

    Second thing why its good vs cannons, its not the overshooting, its the UNDERshooting that saves you.

    A good cannonir will fire exacly 10" from the back of your base. meaning that IF he roles 10" he still hits you, i.e. imposible to overshoot you. BUT if he roles a 2 or a 4 or a 6 or a 8 he does not hit you and the ball needs to role which means a missfire and it stops.

    i know this is not needed but just to defend this tactic even more becouse as i said im a proper "fanboy" of it.

    Cannon roles of the artillery dice
    "cannon aims 10" in front of the back of your base"

    2 - 4
    4 - 2
    6 - Missfire

    These 3 roles WOULD hit a normal placment but would NOT hit a sideways placment. it does not seem like alot.

    but now lets think for a moment the fallowing would hit nether one.

    2 - 2
    2 - missfire
    4 - missfire
    proper missfire

    So out of 12 posibilitys 4 would hit nether one, that leaves 8 viable sets that would hit the monster. but now you consider that placeing it sideways would be 3 less viable options.

    final result

    forward facing placement
    8/12 possibilitys to be hit by cannon

    Sideways placement
    5/12 posbilibites


    That is a VERY significant advantage. AND you gain 1" free movement and the only thing it costs you is the ability to charge on the first turn.


    p.s. i think i did my math wrong on how many possibility there actually are or maybe i did it right im not sure, but i think you get my argument and the core point is.

    "there is no logical reason why not to do it unless you want to charge on the first turn in which case you wont have line of sight as you are facing sideways."
     
    Scalenex likes this.
  2. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,866
    Likes Received:
    1,030
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    Can't charge on the first turn anyway.
     
  3. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    If you have a base handy to measure, let me know the difference in length (in inches) between a sideways deployment and a regular deployment. I can double check the math with that.
     
  4. Dreyer
    Cold One

    Dreyer New Member

    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    One of my friends did that sideways trick with his abomination in one game, I marched a unit of chameleons up in its flank preventing him from moving any other way than straight forward. That was hilarious
     
  5. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,866
    Likes Received:
    1,030
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    A Stegadon base is 50mm X 100mm.

    EDIT: I recall another thread a long time ago talking about some weird production issue. They are actually 48x100. Same with Cavalry bases being 24x50 instead of 25x50. I've never measured but lots of people have told me that.

    DOUBLE EDIT: In inches they're 2x4. Haha. Ok, enough edits.
     
  6. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    The issue isn't the size in millimeters, it's the size in inches. They're close to, but not actually, whole number inches values, and it makes a difference.

    If we go with 1.9865 vs 3.937, the theoretical conversions, it's a 66% chance to be hit with regular deployment, and a 55% chance to be hit with sideways deployment.

    The problem is, imagine a sideways deployment where he rolls an 8 followed by no bounce. It stops 2 inches from the back of the Stegadon's base. Mathematically, that should be a miss by .0135 inches. But how many people have ruled that a hit?

    The numbers change depending on how you measure. It's different if you're guestimating 2" and 4", or if your guestimation is 2" and "just slightly less than 4".

    Theoretical (1.99 vs 3.93): 66% -> 55% chance
    Approximate (2.00 vs 4.00): 75% -> 66% chance
    Probable eyeball (2.00 vs 3.9): 66% -> 66% chance
     
  7. A Steaming Kroak
    Saurus

    A Steaming Kroak Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?


    This is the main point. You will only save the 2 inches if the cannon is directly in front of it. With an angle, the 2 inch increments should make it so that there is little benefit from having your base sideways. You should still hit the monster on the same rolls. If the cannon is directly in front, then the two inches moved to the sideways position will increase the chances of falling short. Personally, I normally deploy cannons towards the flanks of my army to increase the chances of hitting a flank on knights or to expand the hitting are of a target as the ball travels through more base if it hits on a angle.
     
  8. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    You're right that the angle also matters, but I don't think it actually has the effect you think it does. Actually, if the angle of the shot across the base adds just a tenth of an inch to each of the theoretical values I posted above, the whole problem simplifies down to just the 2" vs 4" case.

    Edit: I did the trig, and you only need a 10 degree angle to the shot for the whole situation to simplify to a clear case of 2" versus 4". It's not possible for the angle to become severe enough to move the comparison out of this range without moving the cannon into the model's flank arc.
     
  9. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    if you read my post i did not take into consideration the exact size of the base and i gave all the benefit of the dought to the attacker...

    nomater the size of the base

    3 varients of roles DO NOT HIT sideways but DO HIT front on.

    2 - 4
    4 - 2
    6 - Missfire

    even if the base is 3" wide these 3 roles STILL do not hit if it is sideways but DO hit if it is head on.

    i know i was trying to show the irony.

    but actually you can, there is 1 mission which you start 18" apart

    also if the enemy has the first turn they could move into range of a charge but then in your turn you cannot charge them because you are sideways.


    P.S.

    Here is what i mean clearly



    As you can see the green heart is the 6" distance which would hit one but not the other.

    (and all the arguing of exact base size would just make the sideways deployment even better but I'm amusing a full 2" wide base with no arguments)

    Every single tournament i have been to people deploy all there monsters like this. even if the enemy has no cannons just for the 1" free movement.
     
  10. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    Technically, all three of those rolls should miss by .07 inches if the shot is perfectly head on, because the base is not actually 4" long.

    But realistically, as ASK pointed out, the shots are rarely perfectly head-on. As long as the cannon is at even a slight angle, you're exactly right. Those 3 cases (out of 36) become misses, lowering your odds of being hit by 8.3% (from 75% to 66.6%).
     
  11. A Steaming Kroak
    Saurus

    A Steaming Kroak Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    There is an advantage against a shot form the front, your math looks good. Also, there really is no disadvantage to deploying sideways, unless there is a scouting/vanguarding unit that can move to the monster's flank. I'll give it a try with a stegadon next time I face a cannon.
     
  12. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    I'm fairly sure the abomination as it is a monster it can pivot for free even tho its random movement, same as the Empire steam tank. so he could just move forwards 6" then pivot and "run into" your skinks.
     
  13. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?


    If it is perfictly head on then the first impact on both of the first impact on the front and side version would miss.

    so only 1 versions would hit the sideways deployment and only 2 would hit the front deployment.

    so nomater how you look at it there is 3 or 4 less possibility of being hit if you deploy sideways vs front on.
     
  14. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    See my earlier post for different ways that can be interpreted.
     
  15. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    i understand and agree with you compleatly and i have never nore will i ever argue that point on the table even at a tournament.... well MAYBE at a tournament xD

    my point just was ether way you look at it sideways still is better because if you fall short on one you fall short on both. thats all i was doing I'm still defending the sideways deployment xD
     
  16. Dreyer
    Cold One

    Dreyer New Member

    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    Read the Random movement rule. You first pivot it in the direction you want it to travel then you move it straigth ahead. Since you cant pivot into a unit, having a small unit in its flank really hampers its ability to do anything. Its a bit gamey (not any more than deploying him sideways I think) but perfectly legal
     
  17. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    Ah ok thanks for explaining it i need yo check if the steam tank works the same way then EVERYONE uses it incorrectly here in Spain. XD

    It is gamey but that's the point of tacticas learning tricks like this, you don't use them vs your frends but they are good to know.
     
  18. Raymond Caleatry
    Skink

    Raymond Caleatry Member

    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Re: A compilation of ways to fight cannons/minimize risk?

    I think everything that is in this video is in this thread, but MrMalorian did a nice video explaining how he deals with cannons, and why they are an integral part of the game.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F2IEZ00-uk
     
  19. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,691
    Likes Received:
    822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Re: Compilation of ways to fight cannons (updated with respo

    Check the OP since I've updated it with most respons.

    Feel free to notify me if something is missing. :p

    I would also like to thank all who have bothered to help out, it really is great when being a noob like me.
     
  20. Aunshi
    Skink

    Aunshi New Member

    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Re: Compilation of ways to fight cannons (updated with respo

    Hey guys,
    can you help me? I am not sure how exactly this rule can be used

    - Razordon/Salamanders: One third of the time, a cannonball is wasted on a lowly Skink handler. A cheap Razordon can thus absorb a cannon ball for a more valuable dinosaur.

    If a cannonball hits the R/S and doesn't kill, ball doesn't continue. I know why. But if is hit handler instead r/s and is killed, canonball doesn't continue to monster behind r/s unit?


    Thank
     

Share This Page