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AoS Constellations for the Thunderquake Starhost?

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by Nielspeterdejong, Sep 23, 2017.

  1. Nielspeterdejong
    Terradon

    Nielspeterdejong Well-Known Member

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    Hey everyone,

    First of all, I had a great match yesterday with my Thunderquake army :) I went against the player whom I had my first match with (he is much more chill these days), and his Tzeentch army. We got pretty "even", though all I lost was my two units of 40 Skinks, while he lost most of his birds on disks and his big bird (that is how we called him, he is basically the big herald dude you also see in Warhammer Total War). So overall I think I got out ahead :) I had the advantage of my Bastiladon rolling well, and being able to tank most of his attacks (I love that dude! <3).

    However, there were some things which I felt might help improve things, and I was brainstorming just for fun for a Constellation that might help boost my army idea at the expense of points, while involving the Thunderquake Starhost. And I was wondering what people would think about it.

    The story behind it is basically that the Slann is a follower of Sotek named Tepepe'Tikek, while all the other Slann find its worship second to following the great plan. As a pro active fighter against the Skaven back in the day, he had to rely on Skinks due to small amount of Saurus Spawns. However he appreciated his Skinks more, due to both their number and ability to tame the wild beasts of Lustria. When fighting alongside his Skinks, their shows of bravery remind him of his old comrades and the battles they fought together. Allowing him to summon more members to their ranks. His War beasts were also known to be more independent fighters, attacking key positions. And his Kroxigor, Salamanders and Razordons were handpicked by him and trained to be the best of the best. Giving him a army that combined the large numbers of the Skinks with some key elite combatants.

    Veterans of the Southlands (100 points)

    Requirements:

    1 Thunderquake Starhost
    1 Slann Starmaster
    3 or more units of Skinks battleline units
    Any additional Seraphon units


    Bonusses:

    -Any Skinks battleline units under this batallion that has to make a battleshock test and rolls 3 or lower does not lose any models and instead gains D6 models. Provided your Slann Starmaster is still alive.
    -The required range for the Thunderquake Starhost’s abilities increases by 10”. In addition, you may also declare the stance of The Creator's Will at the end of the set up phase.
    - The Kroxigor or Razordon/Salamander unit from the Thunderquake Starhost gains the Bastiladon’s Impervious Defence. Additionally it gains a bonus based on the unit you choose. The Kroxigor may activate its Jaws like a Steel Trap ability on a wound roll of 4 or higher. The Salamander gains +4” range in the shooting phase and its “It burns!” may stack on same target. The Razordon gains a bonus -1 rend on its attacks in the shooting phase.


    The reasoning behind this was the following:
    1) I love how the Skinks have good leadership, but any decent attacker will deal so much damage that it won't matter since they tend to lose quite a few models, even though they have so many options to reroll battleshock tests. The idea behind this was to reward you for rolling well, so that not only you don't suffer additional army losses, but you may even get some brave and inspired Skinks teleporting back in. Similar to how many other Daemon armies have such an ability.
    2) The second one allows your Thunderquake Starhost members to be more mobile while enjoying the bonusses. Plus you can pick a stance at the end of the set up phase based on who goes first.
    3) The 3th bonus gives your frail and short ranged Razordon/Salamander unit some survivability, while making your Kroxigor much more viable for their cost.

    How does this sound? Yay or Nay?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
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  2. Paul Beenis
    Cold One

    Paul Beenis Active Member

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    It's a cool idea, but you are getting a lot of OP stuff for 100 points there ;)
     
  3. Nielspeterdejong
    Terradon

    Nielspeterdejong Well-Known Member

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    Well the first two options are to both make sure the Skinks don't die that fast (well, not as fast as usual ^^; ), as well as just give more ranged to your 4 elite units to operate under. The third one is also just a buff to a single unit. A strong one mind you, but nevertheless one unit :)

    What would you ask for the point cost then? 140 points or something? :)
     
  4. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    With those bonuses I'd say 240 points or so. That would be a very strong bataillon on par with the strongest there are.
    Reasoning:
    1: Thanks to wary fighters Skinks are already one of the best battleline units in the game. a 50% chance of regaining d6 models, and that even happens in the battleshock phase and _instead_ models fleeing makes it easily something I'd spend 60-80 points on.

    2: That ability removes the only real vulnerabilities of the Thunderquake (no buff turn 1 AND limited range so they have to stay together)

    3. Impervious defense alone is easily worth 30 points for any unit.
    Salamanders are not OP for their price _because_ of their limited range. Razordons with rend -2 in close shooting? The Jaws thingie is also worth it. I'd say I'd add 40 points to have any of this.

    Every bataillon gives an artefact and reduces drops This one is a really powerful one because it allows any other Seraphon unit (not limited to Saurus or Skinks, but everything). The standard tax for such bataillons is around 120 points.

    So I'd say everything between 220 and 260 would be an acceptable price for that bataillon.
     
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  5. Koriialstraz
    Skink

    Koriialstraz Member

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    Good analysis ! I agree with you. And this battalion would be, like you said, a very powerful one !
     
  6. Seraphage
    Salamander

    Seraphage Well-Known Member

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    I actually think this to be way too much OP. It just takes the only disadvantages of many of our units and turn them into broken mechanisms :p
    Still a fun making !
     
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  7. Nielspeterdejong
    Terradon

    Nielspeterdejong Well-Known Member

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    Alright, thanks for the feed back everyone :)

    It was more just discussing my ideas, but I agree that it would be a bit powerful.

    I'm already pretty happy with the Thunderquake Starhost in combination with the Skinks. Now I can fill in the gaps of elite units with some fodder :)
     
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  8. Nielspeterdejong
    Terradon

    Nielspeterdejong Well-Known Member

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    Just for the fun of it though, what would you think would be a fair constellation that does include the Thunderquake Starhost?

    Say, I want the cost to be 100-160 points. But I also want to let the Skinks gain a bonus based on a good Bravery roll,to make the Slann Starmaster's his own spell (2 rolls on bravery, you can use the lowest) more useful. As well as more range on the Thunderquake's Starhosts abilities.

    Say the constellation would include #2 of my original idea (with or without the additional effect of choosing the stance in the set up?), and then something involving rewarding good bravery rolls for Skinks.

    What kind of fun ideas would you guys have for that? And what would you ask for its cost? :)
     
  9. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    For that low point cost...

    Ok let's talk about the following (just made this up in five minutes or so, so it might provide unwanted loopholes):

    *********************************************
    Chicxulub's March Constellation

    Requirements:
    - 1 Slann Starmaster
    - Thunderquake Starhost
    - 0-1 Shadowstrike Starhosts
    - 0-3 units of Razordons or Salamanders in any combination
    - any number of additional Skink units

    Abilities:

    More than ever
    The presence of their Slann master makes the Skinks more eager to fight instead of their fallen comrades instead of fleeing.
    As long as their Slann Starmaster is alive, when a battleshock test result for a Skink unit from this constellation is 3 or less, they gain +1 to their wound rolls in the following turn.

    Loud Thunderquake
    When marching in this huge constellation the great beasts of the Seraphon make the ground tremble. Add 10" to the range of the Thunderquake Starhost's "The Creator's will" ability.

    **********************************************


    For "More than ever" you could also buff your save rolls or hit rolls instead of the wound rolls, maybe even the "wary fighters" distance, or allowing them to retreat and charge in the same turn. Something like that. I'll go for the wound rolls for now because that's easier for the math. Movement is very hard to pin a point cost on.

    I am not sure about the points cost yet. This one only has one really good ability, and that one is worth about the cost of a Skink Chief (actually less because it only works if they are hit, AND roll the 50% result). Might be OK for 50 points or so. That plus the 50 points tax generally applying to bataillons makes it 100, maybe add 20 for the other ability.
    Like the other constellations this one cannot be used combined with Kroak (it says Slann Starmaster and not only Slann) and it can only contain additional Skink units, not all Seraphon. IMO that's a nice contrast to all the other constellations which require Saurus units.
     
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  10. Koriialstraz
    Skink

    Koriialstraz Member

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    It's a great idea that you have here. I quite like it !
     
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  11. Nielspeterdejong
    Terradon

    Nielspeterdejong Well-Known Member

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    Oh that definately sounds like a fun idea! :D Would that be for 100 points?

    I like the flavor it has, though a half decent unit will still destroy it due to the battleshock test. Perhaps it also allows it to count as having at least 20 models until the beginning of your next turn for the Cohort bonus? Just tossing some ideas out there.

    Also I like the idea of the javelin throwers on top of the Skink monsters getting a better bonus to hit.
     
  12. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    I think there are quite some options that could work for Skinks, yes.
    I'd probably say the Bataillon is 120 points.

    We have to check for one thing though: it might make Rippers broken because those hit hard anyway and they have the Skink keyword so they could have another buff, in that case for their wound rolls.
     
  13. Nielspeterdejong
    Terradon

    Nielspeterdejong Well-Known Member

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    Well how about something like this?

    ----

    Chicxulub's March Constellation (120 points)

    Requirements:
    - 1 Slann Starmaster
    - Thunderquake Starhost
    - 0-1 Shadowstrike Starhosts
    - 3+ Skinks battleline units
    - 0-3 units of Kroxigor, Razordons or Salamanders in any combination
    - any number of additional Skink units

    Abilities:

    More than ever
    The presence of their Slann master makes the Skinks and Kroxigor more eager to fight and avenge their fallen comrades instead of fleeing. As long as their Slann Starmaster is alive, when a battleshock test result for a Skink/Salamander/Razordon/Kroxigor unit from this constellation is 3 or less, they don't lose any additional models and gain +1 to their wound rolls in the following turn.

    Loud Thunderquake
    When marching in this huge constellation the great beasts of the Seraphon make the ground tremble. Add 10" to the range of the Thunderquake Starhost's "The Creator's will" ability.

    ----

    I added a buff to the More than ever so that it prevents further model loss (which is good for the Skinks, and makes sense constellation wise), and allows you to gain a bonus to your Kroxigor/Salamander/Razordon as well. The latter I feel is just fair to give something to the Kroxigor/Salamander/Razordon unit as well, because otherwise it would feel left out.

    How does this sound?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
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  14. Nielspeterdejong
    Terradon

    Nielspeterdejong Well-Known Member

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    Also, I looked at the Skinks battleline unit warscroll, and I saw that it didn't have the Skink keyword, only the Skinks keyword. Did they forget to add that? Because it is important that they have the right keyword.
     
  15. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    That's an error I am absolutely sure. 100%.
     
  16. Nielspeterdejong
    Terradon

    Nielspeterdejong Well-Known Member

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    Pwew! :)

    Also, what do you think about my suggested edit? Allowing them a 50% chance to prevent further model loss, and a +1 to wound rolls in the next turn?
     
  17. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure yet if I understand the possible ramifications completely.


    I think for the sake of brevity we could just write "a battleshock test for a unit of this bataillon" because that includes anyone except the heroes anyway.

    As for the battleshock: that's not a 50% chance since we wrote "the battleshock result" which is the modified roll (including the number of Skinks you lost). So the rule would never trigger if you lost more than two models. That might actually be a bit weak. Now we could either change the number to 5 or so, OR we could change the wording from "result" to "roll" making it a 50% chance.

    The key is to not make it too strong, since immunity to battleshock is not what we aimed for (we have good bravery anyway) and we also don't want it to trigger all the time but synergize with the Slann. So a mathematically not _that_ good value would be the one to aim for, since we want it to kinda rely on people using the additional dice if they want to have it reliable.
     
  18. Nielspeterdejong
    Terradon

    Nielspeterdejong Well-Known Member

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    Well how about instead we make it based on the dice roll? So it would be this:

    Tepepe'Tikek's March Constellation (120 points)

    Requirements:
    - 1 Slann Starmaster
    - Thunderquake Starhost
    - 0-1 Shadowstrike Starhosts
    - 3+ Skinks battleline units
    - 0-3 units of Kroxigor, Razordons or Salamanders in any combination
    - any number of additional Skink units

    Abilities:

    More than ever
    The presence of their Slann master makes the Skinks and Kroxigor more eager to fight and avenge their fallen comrades instead of fleeing. As long as their Slann Starmaster is alive, when you roll a dice for the battleshock test for a Skink/Salamander/Razordon/Kroxigor unit from this constellation and the dice roll is 3 or less, the unit doesn't lose any additional models and it gain a +1 to its wound rolls in the following turn.

    Loud Thunderquake
    When marching in this huge constellation the great beasts of the Seraphon make the ground tremble. Add 10" to the range of the Thunderquake Starhost's "The Creator's will" ability.

    ----

    Basically, each time you lose a model and you have to make a battleshock test, there is a 50% chance you will not lose any additional models and for one turn the unit will theoretically deal more damage. This would synergise well with the Slann and the Stegadon. It may sound strong, but remember that it is only a 50% chance, and those Slann and Stegadon's spell and ability now actually have a use! :) How does this sound? You still have to take another batallion within this constellation after all.
     
  19. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    I think the ability would be fine that way.
    I would still only write "when you roll a battleshock test for a unit of this bataillon" instead of the keywords because it applies to all of them anyway and that's OK I think.

    I would drop the requirement of Battleline Skinks though. Reasoning behind that: If you are playing a Shadowstrike and don't want to play Chameleons it is pretty likely you bring two units of Skinks anyway. Then getting forced by the bataillon to bring another three units of Skinks would be too harsh IMO.
    If you don't play the Shadowstrike you could decide to play Saurus as Battleline (outside of this bataillon so you need more drops but it might be worth it in some cases) and then the Skink requirement is also 180 points thrown away.

    I'll create one or two example lists tomorrow and see if the points add up nicely for 2k.
     
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  20. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    Had to try it right now.

    I'd say comparing it to Fangs of Sotek it is probably OK to lower the cost to 100 points, then it would - Although barely - work for 2k points using the three bataillons. Most likely it would have its full effectiveness only in 2500 points games or so, just like the other constellations.

    Here is an example. Not ideal but working.

    As you can see I chose to not take a Bastiladon to keep it cheap enough to fit into 2k and of course a single Razordon isn't that great either. The Shadowstrike also is weaker a bit with the Terradons but at least I have one big Skink group to get the bonuses. The other ones are just Battleline tax.
    You could play another Razordon if you replace the EotG with a Troglodon, but then you have no third hero to give the artefact to.
    ...in fact we would be able to play with four artefacts here but the stuff is too expensive to fit another hero.
    Not too shabby though if you keep in mind that this is one drop.

    At 2.5K you can then get the really good stuff.


    Allegiance: Seraphon
    Slann Starmaster (260)
    - General
    - Trait: Vast Intellect
    - Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices
    Skink Starpriest (80)
    - Artefact: Prism of Amyntok
    Engine of the Gods (220)
    - Artefact: Coronal Shield
    40 x Skinks (200)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
    3 x Skink Handlers (40)
    1 x Razordons (40)
    3 x Terradon Riders (120)
    - Sunleech Bolas
    Stegadon (240)
    Stegadon (240)
    Shadowstrike Starhost (170)
    Thunderquake Starhost (170)
    Tepepe'Tikek's March (100)

    Reinforcement Points (0)

    Total: 2000 / 2000
    Allies: 0 / 400
     

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