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AoS Curse of fates vs rule of 1

Discussion in 'Rules Help' started by John1974, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. John1974
    Cold One

    John1974 Active Member

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    As the title says .. does the curse of fates over ride the rule of 1 where all 1s fail no mater what. I only ask as i had a game abd the situation came up. I assumed that curse of fates changes the dice from a 1 to a 2. But he was saying a 1 no mater what is always a fail.
    I didn't care and didn't want to push the issue Any further so went with it
     
  2. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Ok there are ar least two answers to this:

    The first is "a 1 is always a fail". That is wrong. It only applies to hit-, wound-, and save rolls, it is not a general rule.

    Secondly: abilities override core rules (page 11 core rules says that) So even a roll where the "1s fail" can obviously be overridden. Otherwise abilities who allow to reroll failed saves or hits or wounds of 1 would never work.


    Now comes the more rules-lawyerish part: the mentioned rules paragraph mentions abilities, not spells. So the question is: are spells abilities?
    I say yes, based on this:
    If unmodified saves of 1 are always fails, and spells are NOT subject to the above rule who says abilities override core rules, then....
    Congratulations! The new Mystic Shield can never work!

    Now, that seems to be wrong. So IMO it is safe to conclude that spells are indeed abilities, at least in the context of that rule.
     
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  3. John1974
    Cold One

    John1974 Active Member

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    Lol cheers Aginor..love your responses always full if gusto lol.theres always issues with the way things are worded in this game. cheers for the help
     
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  4. Stevie754
    Skink

    Stevie754 Member

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    With Curse of fates it is physically increasing or decreasing the roll on the dice so even if it was a 1 to hit. That roll becomes a 2 and is no longer an instant fail (if you hit on 2s)

    Now the second point made by Aginor, there is a clear split between spells and abilities, they are even under different headings in the warscrolls. So spells do not take precedence over the new core rules as it is worded for abilities only. I'm expecting a Kroak warscroll rework but if he doesn't it still isn't going to allow for celestial deliverance up to the 3 times a turn.

    A roll of 1 would not stop the new mystic shield from working, it is a fail in regards to your save roll but there is no rule that stops spells or ability affects from triggering on a 1, and you are then able to reroll that failed save because of mystic.
     
  5. John1974
    Cold One

    John1974 Active Member

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    But if kroaks warscroll isnt rewritten wouldnt that allow him to use it 3 times as it says that whatever is written on the battlescroll overwrites any other rule
     
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  6. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    It is not quite clear if spells are abilities or not, so depending on the answer to that question: maybe.
     
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  7. Stevie754
    Skink

    Stevie754 Member

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    It says abilities take precedence, so at the minute no. Abilities and Magic are listed under different headings in warscrolls so there is a difference between the two.
     
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  8. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    I agree CD is still subject to the rule of one.
     
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  9. John1974
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    John1974 Active Member

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    Then that's just stupid. Why even have it on the warscroll.
     
  10. John1974
    Cold One

    John1974 Active Member

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    Talking to warhammer online concerning kroaks celestial deliverance this is the answer i recieved. Even though they are not the rules team its still a pretty good indication.. I've always seen it as an ability rather than a spell but we will see soon enough i guess

    Screenshot_20180628-055525.png
     
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  11. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    It's in the FAQ it's official Kroak can unleash Hell

     
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  12. John1974
    Cold One

    John1974 Active Member

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    Yes yes yes... let the heavens open and let it rain fire
     
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  13. Mormblwka
    Saurus

    Mormblwka Member

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    But still, what about rippers?
     
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  14. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    Same they are back to their best, as posted by @Galen

    The difference is, the Ripperdactyl warscroll specifically allows for bonus attacks to generate additional attacks:

    Voracious Appetite: Each time a
    model from this unit attacks with
    its Vicious Beak and scores a hit,
    immediately make another hit roll
    against the same target. Carry on until a
    hit roll does not score a hit, then make
    any wound rolls.


    Compare that to the Scar-Vet on Carnosaur command ability:

    Saurian Savagery: The Scar-Veteran
    looses an ear-splitting roar that drives
    nearby saurus into a frenzy. If the
    Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur
    uses this ability, pick a SAURUS unit
    within 15". Until your next hero phase,
    whenever you roll a hit roll of 6 or more
    for a model in that unit, that model can
    immediately make one additional attack
    using the same weapon.


    The Scar-Vet warscroll doesn't specifically allow the additional attacks to generate additional attacks, so it can't over-ride the core rules. The Ripperdactly warscroll however does specifically allow for the bonus attacks to generate additional ones, so it can over-ride the core rules. Hence, from a straight rules perspective, Ripperdactyls can keep hitting indefinitely until they miss.
     
  15. John1974
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    John1974 Active Member

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    And don't forget if they are swooping you can reroll failed to hit and to wound rolls. Just makes it all that sweeter
     
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  16. John1974
    Cold One

    John1974 Active Member

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    Where abouts in the faq is that i want a hard copy of it lol.. i can't atm to find it did you have a link
     
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  17. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    Pg2 under warscrolls heading just before Units and Models

    Q: If a warscroll or set of allegiance abilities has a rule that
    contradicts the core rules, can I use it? For example, Lord
    Kroak has a rule that allows him to attempt to cast Celestial
    Deliverance up to three times in the hero phase, but this
    contradicts the core rule that you can only attempt to cast a spell
    once per turn.

    A: Warscrolls and allegiance abilities take precedence
    over the core rules, allowing you to do things that would
    not normally be allowed. In the case of Lord Kroak, his
    rule means he can attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance
    up to three times in the same turn.
     
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  18. John1974
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    John1974 Active Member

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    So does that now mean that it uses 3 of his 4 spells to use deliverance
     
  19. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Yes.
    If he wants to.
     
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  20. John1974
    Cold One

    John1974 Active Member

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    Oh..i want to lol
     

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