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8th Ed. Discussion - How to beat "The" Daemon Prince?

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Karnus, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. Karnus
    Saurus

    Karnus Member

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    You know the build, the 1+ save with the 3+ ward that lets you re-roll 1's (can only be killed on a 2) with the wound regenerating madness, 2+ ward against fire etc etc

    Our chaos player has started testing the water with "The" daemon prince build and first time I went up against it I had a go with an oldblood wielding the blade of realities in a unit of cold ones. Now my chaos player is smart so he issued a challenge knowing I had something up my sleeve. I had two choices here, refuse the challenge and risk getting my oldblood sent to the back of the unit or accept and cross my fingers. I accepted and crossed my fingers and he survived 2 rounds of combat with no wounds done before he was slain outright. I don't think combat is the way to go as the prince can just issue challenges every round, effectively keeping him safe from heroes hidden in units. (unless I am reading the rules incorrectly? can there be only 1 challenge per combat total or is it per round?)

    Dwellers below? means I have to take life magic and hope I roll 6 or a double on 4 dice. I've never not got it, but it's risky. The Skaven player in our group did well with magic and successfully cast Cracks Call (i think?) and managed to kill it that way so I don't know.

    Try and get him to charge Gor'rok? 1/3 chance of him failing a dangerous terrain test that way but let's face it Gor'rok is as good as dead if he passes and this is highly situational, the prince can run rings around Gor'rok with those wings.

    Care to share any experiences?
     
  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Are you referring to a Chaos Lord or a Daemon Prince?

    A Daemon Prince can't have a 3+ Ward save. The best save a Daemon Prince can have is a 1+ armour save with a 5+ ward save (re-reolling 1's). Only a Chaos Lord (or Sorcerer Lord, Exalted Hero or Chaos Sorcerer) can obtain the 1+ 3++ rr1 save that you mentioned.

    A Chaos Lord and Daemon Prince each have their relative strengths and weaknesses (though not many weaknesses).
     
  3. Karnus
    Saurus

    Karnus Member

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    EDIT:

    It is definitely the Daemon Prince with the following:

    Nurgle, flying, Scaly Skin, Chaos Armour, Soul Feeder, Sword of Striking, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem, and Lore of Death
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    That is definitely a solid build. The most effective method of dealing with a DP is with cannons, but that of course does not help us. Most of our units will do pretty much nothing against it, but you do have a few options.

    Slann - The Slann gives you a couple of good spells with which to attempt to kill the Daemon Prince (DP) or to lend magical support to your units fighting the DP. Fire and Metal are pretty useless against that DP because of the Dragonbane Gem. Heavens isn't that best choice either.

    Let's take a look at some spells to kill the DP.
    • Beasts - boosted Amber Spear: S10 hit with the Multiple Wounds (D6) rule :woot:. That means you'll be wounding on 2's, blowing straight through his armour and he must rely on his 5+ ward. If you manage to wound and he fails his ward, you have a 50% chance of killing him outright. It's basically a cannon that auto hits. This in my opinion is the best spell to try to kill him (some armies could use the lore of light Banishment spell, but you really need a light council to pull that off, which we can't do because skinks can't access Light).
    • Death - Spirit Leech - boosted you have a range of 24". You each have LD9 so it comes down to a dice roll. It's nice because it auto wounds and ignores his 1+ armor. Caress of Laniph isn't that great because on average it will do only 1 hit, that wounds on a 4+ and he then gets his ward. Fate of Bjuna only has range 12" which won't be enough in most cases.
    • The Nuke Spells (Purple Sun, Dwellers, Final Transmutation): These really aren't the best options. You basically have a 1 in 6 chance to kill him outright (even less with Purple Sun, because the vortex has to actually hit him). If it works it's awesome, but the casting values are pretty high and 1 in 6 is not that great. On the plus side it ignores all saves and autokills.
    Next let's look at some good support spells:
    • Beasts: Wyssan's Wildform, Pann's Impenetrable Pelt and especially Savage Beast of Horros! All great spells at helping your combatants (we'll get to that below) take out the DP
    • Light - Speed of Light - WS 10 really helps us out here. Remember that not only does it help you hit him, but it makes it harder for him to hit you.
    • Life - Flesh to Stone - +2 (or better yet +4) to your toughness can really help you stay in the fight. Additionally, the lore attribute let's you heal up lost wounds.
    • Shadow - Enfeebling Foe, Withering and Okkam's Mindrazor are all great. They can really help turn the tide.


    Oldblood - this guy is your single best option to take out the DP in close combat. With the right build you can come out on top, especially if supported by some of the spells mentioned above. Always remember thought that the DP flies so you have to position your troops VERY carefully so that you are not outmaneuvered. Also consider if your goal is to try to kill the DP or just hold him up for the game.

    Some general thoughts on using the Oldblood:
    • This is the best close combat fighter we can send into the DP
    • You must mount your Oldblood on a cold one: This gives you mobility, an armour boost and prevents the DP from thunderstomping you.
    • You might want to be stubborn: it is too easy to whiff on a round of rolls, break and be run down. Remember that the DP is unbreakable, but we are not. This means that you either take the crown of command or you have an extra rank (but this gets expensive because you need 9 Cold One Riders). The Crown of Command is probably your best bet, but if you go the route of being steadfast, make sure you issue a Challenge to the DP with your oldblood or the DP will kill your unit for easier combat res and break your steadfast. Having your BSB within range is also vital. If that BSB happens to be a Slann with the standard of discipline then you are virtually unbreakable
    Building the Oldblood
    • Forget the Blade of Realities, we can build something better. The Blade of Realities costs way too much and leaves no room for defense.
    • In terms of offence, all you need is a GW and if you can afford it and have not taken the crown of command than The Other Trickster's Shard
    • In terms of defense, you need that crown of command. You need a 1+ armour save, which you can easily obtain with mundane equipment (scaly skin + mounted on cold one + light armour = 1+ AS). Ward save items, Glittering Scales, Dawnstone are all viable.

    Oldblood [Cold One, GW, Crown of Command, Glittering Scales, Dawnstone] - 261 points


    DP 5 attacks - hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, rerollable 4+
    5*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/2) = 0.56 wounds

    Oldblood 5 attacks - hitting on 5's, wounding on 2's, 5+, 5++
    5*(1/3)*(5/6)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 0.62 wounds (+ the cold one, but that is virtually nothing)


    The DP has a very slight edge (strikes before you and has an extra wound) but you out wound him 0.62 to 0.56. However, it will take him about 5-6 rounds of combat to kill your Oldblood and you cost SIGNIFICANTLY less points than he does. If you cast some of those support spells mentioned above, that will turn things around quickly. Or you could obtain stubborn from steadfast via a unit or have another character form a unit with your oldblood and have your other character carry the crown of command. Now you free up 35 points and the enchanted items slot. Alternatively, you can take a gamble and put the Oldblood into the DP without being stubborn because you should win combat. Let's take a look at an Oldblood build where you don't give him the Crown of command...

    Oldblood [Cold One, GW, Armour of Destiny, Dawnstone, Other Trickster's Shard] - 266 points

    DP 5 attacks - hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's, rerollable 4+, 4++
    5*(5/6)*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/2)*(1/2) = 0.34 wounds

    Oldblood 5 attacks - hitting on 5's, wounding on 2's, 5+, 5++ (rerolling successful wards)
    5*(1/3)*(5/6)*(2/3)*(2/3 + 1/3*2/3) = 0.82 wounds (+ the cold one, but that is virtually nothing)

    In this case you actually have a fairly significant advantage over him (at a fraction of his points cost).



    Kroxigors
    - with some magical support they can get the job done. The trick is that you need a large enough unit to absorb casualties (which the DP will inflict). We're looking at 8-10 Kroxigors fielded 3 wide. The problem for these guys is they hit the DP on 6's, however once they do, those are S7 attacks. Speed of Light is HUGE here (but your opponent will know this as well), it will mean you get to hit on 4's instead.

    Let's assume you take 10 Kroxigors with an Ancient at a whooping 510 points.

    DP 5 attacks - hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's
    5*(5/6)*(5/6) = 3.47 wounds

    9 Kroxigors left, 6 get to attack (including champ) - hitting on 6's, wounding on 2's, 5+, 5++
    19*(1/6)*(5/6)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 1.17 wounds

    You tie combat (two extra ranks). In subsequent rounds you will lose combat, but are stubborn. The DP has roughly a 50% chance of regaining a wound each round. It will be a long fight unless you happen to break.

    Now if you happen to replay this but assume that you cast Speed of Light...
    DP 5 attacks - hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's
    5*(2/3)*(5/6) = 2.77 wounds

    9 Kroxigors left, 6 get to attack (including champ) - hitting on 4's, wounding on 2's, 5+, 5++
    19*(1/2)*(5/6)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 3.52 wounds

    You kill him in 1-2 rounds. Of course magic is fickle. You may not get that spell. He may dispel it. He will also be casting spells. Also, you might have trouble getting your kroxigors into combat with the DP.



    Saurus + Mindrazor - S8 attacks go a long way. Once again this is magic reliant and your opponent will expect this. Saurus are slow, so they will never get into combat with the DP if your opponent is fearful that you will cast Mindrazor on them.




    These are just some ideas, there may be a few more out there (hopefully others will discuss). Also it is late at night, someone may want to check my math for possible (probable) tiredness related errors. Either way, they are at least in the ball park.

    Thoughts?
     
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  5. Karnus
    Saurus

    Karnus Member

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    That was a very nice comprehensive write up! Thank you for the assistance.

    I do not like to rely solely on magic as the winds can be fickle when you need them most. The Oldblood on Cold one seems to be the way to go for sure in my mind, but I am wary of him not having a ward save, that 1+ goes to a 3+ on the prince's base strength, and that will leave me with just enough points for a barebones basic slaan. I like the other tricksters shard so will have to try both variations and see.

    I'd have to get rid of the charmed shield somehow too

    Thank you for your input, lots of food for thought.
     
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  6. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The DP is S6, so the Oldblood's 1+ armour goes to 4+.
     
  7. Karnus
    Saurus

    Karnus Member

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    Ah I was going from the back of the BRB where it says str 5, must have got an update in the 8th edition army book.
     
  8. Karnus
    Saurus

    Karnus Member

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    Me and my friend from the undercity have worked out that we think he is taking a demon of tzeetch and using nurgle magic to improve his ward.... that's not "legal" right?
     
  9. Nymphomom
    Jungle Swarm

    Nymphomom New Member

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    No, it's not. If he uses a demon of tzeentch he has do use the tzeentch magic.
     
  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Or the Lore of Metal.


    But you are correct that he can most definitely not use the Lore of Nurgle.
     
  11. Karnus
    Saurus

    Karnus Member

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    I thought it was a bit odd because in the fluff Tzeentch and Nurgle hate each other.

    So he will have to pick between a better ward and the -1 to hit. Excellent! Thank you for the help so far.
     
  12. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    No worries. The DP is already a badass character as it stands. You'll have to keep an eye out to ensure that your friend isn't granting him extra advantages that he isn't entitled to.
     
  13. Scalenex
    OldBlood

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I got tossed into the deep end of the pool in this battle where I tried to take on four Daemon Princes.
     
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  14. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    I recalled i have read it!

    Nice, uphill battle...
     
  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    @Scalenex and @Killer Angel : any thoughts or strategies in relation to the original question of the thread?
     
  16. Scalenex
    OldBlood

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    That Daemon Princes are overpowered and that since GW is no longer officially supporting 8th edition, players should not be afraid to add house rules. To make WoC versus LM game balanced, Daemon Princes should be more expensive points-wise.

    Or you accept that playing against Daemon Princes without cannons as the Dark Souls Mode of Warhammer Fantasy. If you win, you accomplished something great. If you lost, no biggie.

    We have stuff that can consistently wound Daemon Princes, but Daemons Princes...FLYYYYY!!!! They usually get to choose which fights they participate in.
     
  17. airjamy
    Ripperdactil

    airjamy Active Member

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    Great writeup on what is, in my opinion, the biggest issue of 8th, WoC were overpowered. Especially the nurgleprinces were unbeatable, unless you tool your list to specifically beating them, and even then, one bad diceroll and you are dead. Are some interesting points in here though, i never thought about using the lore of Beasts Spear to kill a DP, that might actually just work.
     
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  18. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    slightl OT, but what's this love for Nurgle by GW?
    Even now in 40K they are by far the strongest daemon faction, and one of the most powerful army in the whole game, hands down.
     
  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    To be honest, when it comes to WoC, I prefer the unkillable Tzeentch Hortennse Chaos Lord sporting a 1+ 3++rr1.
     
  20. Karnus
    Saurus

    Karnus Member

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    Don’t forget the flying disc mount!
     
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