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8th Ed. Escalation Campaign: Lizards vs Tomb Kings - final 2K battle

Discussion in 'Battle Reports' started by miturian, May 6, 2015.

  1. miturian
    Saurus

    miturian Member

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    So, my friend and I are both starting new armies – I a lizardmen army (duh!), he a tomb kings army. I have a sizeable bretonnian army in the basement, but have not actually played that many games. He hasn’t touched the game in ~15 years. So, we figured it would be good to start small (see below), while we learn the rules.

    House rules:

    We have no end times, including the “undead lore and 50% Lords”-errata.

    As we will only be playing each other for the foreseeable future, we have no problems with making our own decisions regarding sensible interpretations of the rules.

    An example of this (I will probably be listing them as we decide upon them):

    - No PF fighter attacks from the second rank, except the krox, who do get them.

    - While stomp attacks are apportioned on the enemy unit, whether a stomp can take place depends on which models the stomper is actually in base contact with – so, a sfinx can stomp a skrox unit, if it is actually in base contact with a skink.

    - A character fighting in a building can always refuse a challenge. In that case, the character will be removed from the assault party.


    Campaign rules

    The campaign is an escalation campaign – each new army list is slightly larger than the previous one. We have decided on the restriction that the winning list has to be fully contained in the following list for that army. Of course models can be added to units, and characters can obtain additional equipment – but no equipment or upgrades can be removed or traded around. The loosing army has no restrictions (other than the regular ones for army building). If the match is a draw, both armies count as having won.

    We count victory points in the following way:

    Add points of all remaining non-fleeing units. If a unit is at less than half size, it only counts for half the points.

    Add 100 pts for killing the general.

    If the difference is less than 100 pts, it’s a draw.

    It’s possible that we’ll start worrying about standards and underdog challenges as well, but not in the beginning.

    For the first 3 points levels, monsters are not allowed (thought m.beasts, inf, mounts are). The armies are supposed to have a “skirmishing feel”. After 1500 pts we start using other scenarios than battle line. We may even go for special scenarios, having such things as home field advantages. Until this time, all scenery is non-magical. It is possible that special characters will be allowed at some point, but not at this time.

    Pts Restrictions
    ------------------------------
    500 No monsters
    700 No monsters
    900 No monsters
    1200 Everything goes (but battle line only)
    1500 battle line only
    1600 Random scenarios / magic scenery
    1700 Random scenarios / magic scenery
    1800 Random scenarios / magic scenery
    1900 Random scenarios / magic scenery
    2000 Random scenarios / magic scenery
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2015
  2. miturian
    Saurus

    miturian Member

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    So, first battle:


    The two armies:

    Lizards:

    Skink chief, light armour & shield

    Skink priest, beasts

    10 skirmishers, blowpipes

    10 skirmishers, blowpipes

    16 skinks, 1 kroxigor, poisonous attacks, standard, musician

    Razordon with extra handler


    Tomb Kings:

    Liche Priest, lvl 2, dispel scroll, lore of nehekhara (hierophant)

    10 archers

    3 chariots

    5 horse archers

    16 skeleton warriors, standard


    The skink priest rolled curse of anraheir (which was what I was hoping for, but regret in hindsight. Doesn’t really matter, never got to cast the spell)

    Liche priest rolled spell 1 & 3 (Djaf's Incantation of Cursed Blades (killing blow),Ptra's Incantation of Righteous Smiting (extra attacks))

    (I am using Bretonnian models as skink proxies, so archers are skirmishers, and men-at-arms are rank and file skinks )

    The board:

    In the middle of the board are 3 bits of impenetrable terrain: an old tree, a monkey statue and the remains of a perverse chicken worshipping cult ;)



    Deployment after vanguard:

    battrep1.jpg

    We put our combat blocks down opposite, and he hides the horses behind the tree in the hope that my razordon and skinks won’t shoot it to pieces first chance they get. The skink priest went with the right hand skirmishers, the liche priest with the archers.



    We couldn’t figure out how vanguards and scouts interfere with “who finishes setting up last”, as I believe the wording is, regarding who gets the +1 for rolling to start? We decided to just count non-character drops, which was 4 for each. That meant no one got a +1, and we just rolled.

    I win the roll, going first.

    Turn 1:

    Liz:

    Stuff moves up to shoot. Right skirmishers go right around tree, razordon between tree and monkey. The left hand skirmishers stand behind the chicken and a few of them shoot at the chariots.

    I don’t get my spell off.

    My skinks put 2 wounds on his horses, and the razordon puts 1. The other skirmishers put 1 wound on the chariots.


    Tk:

    Horses charge skinks, they stand and shoot and kill 1

    Magic puts KB on horses (IF), and regens 3 wounds. I dispelled the other spell. I kill all the new horses in cc. miscast rolled 12, loose the KB spell

    Chariots put 3 wounds (shooting) on left skirmishers who flee, causing a panic in the skrox by running through them L

    His archers kill one handler for the razordon


    (after movements, before shooting, razordon behind tree):
    battrep2.jpg

    Everybody runs, you see the panic roll for skrox unit:
    battrep3.jpg



    Turn 2:

    Lizardmen:

    Razordon moves around monkey statue to shoot at skellies. Magic is dispelled.

    Fleeing units do not rally (but stay on the battlefield)

    Razordon puts 4 wounds on skellies

    The skeleton horse archers are killed in close combat.


    Horses die:

    battrep4.jpg

    TK:

    IF spell 3 (multiple shots) on the archers, who put 1 wound on razordon. Chariots shuffle around, but don’t put any wounds on anything. Miscast puts one wound on hierophant.


    Turn 3:

    Skrox rally, skirmishers run off board (if skrox had run off, I would have forfeit right there)

    Everybody shuffles, magic is dispelled, nothing kills anything, archers put one wound on razordon (I think)


    Turn 4:

    Liz:

    Skrox shuffle backwards outside of chariot charge range, but positioned to counter charge in chariots go for razordon.

    Skirmishers move up between tree and monkey

    Magic is dispelled.

    Razordon puts 2 wounds on skeletons, skirmishers kill 1 archer

    battrep5.jpg

    TK:

    Skellies charge skirmishers

    Gets more attacks on skeletons (IF), regenerating 4, miscast looses last wizard level.

    Chariot puts 1 wound on razordon (killing it)

    Skinks kill 1 skeleton in cc

    battrep6.jpg

    Turn 5:

    Skink cohort runs up and shoots at the chariots, puts two wounds on them (we wanted something to happen down there), which kills one.

    Skirmishers break from combat and are run down.


    Chariots charge the skrox, killing the skink chief, but taking some wounds in return.


    Turn 6:

    The chariots are obliterated by the skrox, and we call it a night.

    At the end I have 182 pts on the board, while he has about 260. Since he killed my general, he gets +100 pts, so it’s a pretty solid victory of 182 vs 360. However, if his 3(!) miscasts had managed to kill the hierophant (who ended up as a lvl 0 with only 1 wound left), it would actually have been 282 vs 230 (not counting crumble), so it was quite close really. The point could be made that if the game had gone a few more rounds, the skrox would have had a pretty decent chance of killing the two other units.


    Lessons learned:
    I need to get more disciplined about taking pictures, and have a less cluttered table :)


    I need better leadership, and a bsb would be nice. And a second level on my priest. It was a huge disadvantage that he always knew to just throw all dispel dice at my one casting attempt. Next game (700 pts) I will probably try to build around a scarvet and a skink bsb with banner of discipline, with a lvl 2 priest with dispel scroll. Possibly that will force me to forego adding my salamander, but I’m not sure if my friend will be adding any hordes in the next game, so it’s still not strictly necessary. Skirmishers could do with being in larger units, but most probably my friend will bring a lot more archers next time, so it’s very likely that he will still have an easy time making them run. Flyers would be very interesting, to be able to get to that mage bunker which I think will be a stable in his army. I should probably switch from blowpipes to javelins, especially with all that strength 3 shooting around.
    I'm thinking that a unit of rippers would do wonders, they could probably eat a unit of chariots, and then go straight at the archer bunker :)
     
    n810 likes this.
  3. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Yep you definitely needed a Saurus character as general of all those skinks.
    perhaps you could take a baslidon (solar engine) instead of a priest next time. ;)
     
  4. Slanputin
    Carnasaur

    Slanputin Well-Known Member

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    No Monsters until 1200 pts unfortunately..

    I agree with the Saurus Character however.
     
  5. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    I can see cold one cav doing well in this match as well.
    maybe with a mounted scarvet?
     
  6. airjamy
    Razordon

    airjamy Active Member

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    Seems like you had a good game, less clutter is certainly neccesary for the game to be more clear, and you always need more photos. Also, i can't help to plug myself here, finally someone that might have ause for my LM vs TK tactica, as it is posted in the tactica index. :)
     
  7. The Sauric Ace
    Terradon

    The Sauric Ace Well-Known Member

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    500 points definitely gives you an option for exploring the many fields of uses for the skirmishers skinks ;-) You need a Scarvet for next attempt Also there is some really great advice, here on the forum, on how to use cowboys. I believe they would be great for a such a small army.
     
  8. miturian
    Saurus

    miturian Member

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    yeah, I read it a couple of times ;)

    As good tricks appear, I'll probably add a few suggestions of my own to the thread.

    As to the talk of cowboys: I have been thinking of that too, but I fear that with the archers always hitting on 5s, a lone character like that would be too easy to pick off? I can't afford a bus right now, so he wouldn't get a LoS! roll. I haven't done the math - is it still worth it?

    Right now, it actually appears that I will be bringing an OB on foot - it turns out that I can't fit both a lvl 2 priest with scroll and a scar vet in at 700 pts :( I figure he goes into the skrox (or, on the side of it at any rate), and that unit then goes to town. rippers should (hopefully) be able to get the charge on the chariots, and then there's not much on the board that can really challenge a skrox unit with OB in it, unless he manages to get KB off with IF on whatever they're fighting, but we'll see.

    I also still can't afford a bsb...
     
    airjamy likes this.
  9. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Maybe a Skink Chief BSB?
    Not ideal, but better than nothing.
     
  10. miturian
    Saurus

    miturian Member

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    I really want more of a say in the magic phase, which means a lvl 2 with dispell scroll. that means even a skink BSB brings me 15 pts over hero allowance :(
     
  11. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    I suppose you could drop to LVL 1 ... again not Idea... :/
     
  12. miturian
    Saurus

    miturian Member

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    As had already been discussed in this thread, it is difficult to fit in a BSB at this points-level. On a last minute whim, I decided to ditch the wizard and get a BSB. The rationale behind this was that my magic was useless in the first game, while leadership clearly was a deciding factor.

    I also decided to bring a unit of 3 rippers, thinking that they could do the double duty of threatening the hierophant (I think a problem in the first match was that I didn’t try to kill the wizard, and get the crumble victory) or get a charge on the chariots so I wouldn’t have to worry about their impact hits.

    Thus, my list looked like:

    Sarus Oldblood [Enchanted Shield, Light Armour, Luckstone]

    Skink Chief [Light Armour, Shield]
    Battle Standard Bearer [Standard of Discipline]

    Skink Skirmishers
    14x Skink Skirmisher [14x Javelin and Shield]

    Skinks [Kroxigor, Musician, Skink Brave, Standard Bearer]
    12x Skink [12x Poisened Attacks]
    1 krox

    Ripperdactyl Riders [3x Ripperdactyl Rider]

    Razordon Hunting Pack (4 handlers)

    And the TK list looked like:

    Liche Priest, lvl 2, dispel scroll, lore of nehekhara (hierophant)

    11 archers

    3 chariots

    5 horse archers

    16 skeleton warriors, standard

    3 necropolis knights

    (same as before, except 3 snake riders and a single archer have been added)



    He gets “smiting”, which is the spell that doubles attacks, and “desiccation”, which removes points from strength and toughness for one round.


    After deployment, including scouts and vanguards, the situation was thus:
    WP_20150518_20_45_10_Pro.jpg

    All the scenery is impassable terrain, except the blue plastic-covers in the far corner, which was a body of water – it was my friend’s idea to have some terrain that we could move through, but as soon as he heard about the aquatic special rule, the water got thrown as far away as possible ;)

    I have placed the toad on the chariots (the big green blob you see), and he has placed most of the heavy stuff on the right flank. I placed the toad on the chariots because I was thinking that the odds were on my side in combat with horse archers, infantry or regular archers, and so, with the toad on the chariots, I wasn’t limiting myself.


    T1:

    He got first turn, shuffled up, didn’t get any magic off, and focused his shooting on the rippers… And killed 2. Damnit. What the hell is up with monstrous cav with toughness 2? Being inside the leadership bubble they hold, but suddenly that lone rider is really not that scary.

    In my turn, the rippers charged the horses (the archers were too far away to be a sure thing, and I really wanted to get into combat). The razordon puts one wound on the snakes. In cc, the ripper takes one wound from the horse archers, and deal none in return. He does hold though.

    End of turn 1, it looks roughly like:

    WP_20150518_21_18_26_Pro.jpg
    T2:

    The TK shuffle around, and doesn’t get any magic off. Two skink skirmishers go down, and the ripper kills two horse archers but is itself slain.

    In my round, the skirmishers shoot down 2 archers. I am slowly moving the general’s unit towards the snakes and chariots, keeping the razordon slightly ahead of me to try to mess up their charging.

    End of turn 2, it looks like:
    WP_20150518_21_38_05_Pro.jpg

    T3:

    In magic, “smiting” goes off with irresistible force on the bowmen. The miscast causes one wound on the hierophant. 3 skinks die to shooting (I forget what kind, probably skirmishers)

    In my round, nothing was within comfortable charging range, and I manage to miss all shots.

    After this pretty uneventful turn, the table looks like:
    WP_20150518_21_55_10_Pro.jpg

    T4:

    TK shuffle. Smiting is cast successfully on the archers, and desiccation is cast with IF on the skink cohort. In the shooting phase he kills 3 skinks in the cohort and puts one wound on the krox. The miscast kills one archer (or perhaps none).

    In my turn, I shuffle forward, the razordon puts one wound on the snakes and the skink skirmishers finally managed to kill the last horse archer, which they have been shooting at the entire game, pretty much.

    Unfortunately I don't seem to have a picture of this place in time, but really, not a lot has happened.

    T5:

    I have finally moved so close to him that he dares charging. The skeleton warriors and chariots charge the cohort, the snakes charge the razordon. The stand and shoot reactions put one wound on the chariots.

    The impact hits kill the kroxigor, TK wins the close combat, but all stick. I should have tried reforming at this point, but forgot. From this point onwards, we forget about fear checks (it wasn’t necessary while the krox lived). Given my leadership and the bsb’s presence, it probably wouldn’t have made much difference.

    Here we made the (probably wrong) ruling that since the OB had a different base size than the skinks, the skinks and skeleton warriors couldn’t touch each other, so the skeletons were forced to direct all their attacks on the OB, and the skinks couldn’t focus on killing the weaker skeletons. This was probably in my favour, since the OB was going to town, but it really was an honest mistake.

    In the other battle, the handlers managed to put the last wound on one of the snakes, bringing the unit down to two, but the razordon (with crew, obviously) was wiped out after that.

    In my round, I do 6 wounds, he does only one, and looses a bit to unstable (we also played this wrong, and mistook it for crumble, so we assumed he had to roll for the wounds).

    Status:
    WP_20150518_22_42_41_Pro.jpg


    T6:

    Snakes charge the skink cohort, smiting is cast on them (making them pretty terrifying, and regrowing a wound). My BSB is awesome and does 3 wounds to the chariot. The OB probably beheads a few skeletons. The snakes kill all my rank and file skinks, so only the BSB and the OB remain in the fight (neither of them have taken a wound yet).

    I should have reformed here to put the BSB into base contact with the skeletons, but we assumed that people in combat were glued in place (it seems that as long as those in combat keep fighting _someone_, then it’s fine).


    In my round, I decided to go all or nothing with the skinks, and charged them into the archers, making sure to get the maximum number of attacks possible (4) onto the hierophant.

    They killed him!

    In the other fight, we erroneously decided that since the snakes were no longer in base contact with anyone (since the rank and file were all gone) they were out of the combat. Since they still had double attacks (and the riders have killing blow…) there’s a pretty good chance they could have taken out either or both of the characters. So that error definitely played to my advantage. Anyway, the OB killed some more skeletons, but not enough to eradicate the unit. According to the crumble special rule, all units have to take a crumble test at the end of the phase in which the hierophant dies. This brought the archers down under half their starting size, and removed the skeleton warriors completely.

    Final look at the battle field:
    WP_20150518_23_25_49_Pro.jpg

    Thus, the final score was:

    228 to TK and 382 to lizzies :)


    Post battle thoughts:

    Rippers suck against arrows of asaph! I have no idea how to salvage that unit, except to just use them as a bullet sponge. Doing the math, 4 wounds requires 4*3*2*3/2= 36 shots. Since he only used 21 shots, 4 wounds was a bit high, but 3 is the expectation, and 4 is not extraordinary.

    Characters are strong in Warhammer (annoyingly strong, I would prefer them to just be slightly stronger than champions, actually, but I realize that's just me).

    I have found a clear problem with skrox: we need a non-skink general, and at this points-level, he has to hide in the skrox unit. However, a saurus only moves 4, which removes one of the strengths of the skink cohort. For the same points, I could have gotten 12 SW with full command, which would likely have fared better in the “death star” role that the skrox ended up playing. I have to bring them next time, but if I was free to choose, I might switch out the skrox with an SW unit, and then only bring the skrox back when they could just be a backup instead of the main event.

    Because of this, I am seriously considering putting the OB on a lizard, to bring the movement up. It feels a bit wrong, since his armour save will be something silly like -1+ (if that was allowed), but the low movement really has an impact. However, I am also loathe to kit out any particular character too much, since TK have such a varied number of ways to get KB.

    It’s difficult to say whether my no-magic gamble paid off or not. I never had to use the BSB reroll, but I do think that the extra leadership from the banner played in once or twice. Since I spent such a long time getting into combat, it’s unclear whether magic buffs would have done much to help me, especially since the main event was the rippers getting cleaned out. Magic could not have stopped that.

    I am struggling with the fact that I have to engage since he has the ranged superiority, but my present army list is unlikely to get the charge on him. I am thinking that in the future, a cold one bus will probably be very handy, despite how loathe I am to field them (I already have all my heavy cavalry needs covered in my other army...)
     

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  13. miturian
    Saurus

    miturian Member

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    Army Lists

    Tomb Kings:

    Heroes (300pts)
    -Liche Priest
    Lore of Light, Wizard Level 2
    -Liche Priest
    Hierophant, Lore of Nehekhara, Wizard Level 2
    -Necrotect
    BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Opal Amulet, BRB - Warrior Bane

    Core (395pts)
    -Skeleton Archers
    10x Skeleton Archers
    -Skeleton Archers
    Musician, 10x Skeleton Archers
    -Skeleton Chariots
    Skeleton Chariots, Skeleton Chariots, Skeleton Chariots
    -Skeleton Warriors
    Champion ,20x Skeleton Warriors ,Standard Bearer

    Special (205pts)
    -Necropolis Knights
    3x Necropolis Knights , Standard Bearer

    Total: 900pts

    Lizardmen:
    So, as last game’s winner, my army list was mostly unchanged:

    + Lords (189pts) +
    Sarus Oldblood [Cold One, Enchanted Shield, Light Armour, Luckstone]

    + Heroes (190pts) +
    Skink Chief [Blowpipe, Light Armour, Shield]
    Battle Standard Bearer [Standard of Discipline]

    Skink Priest Level 2, heavens

    + Core (262pts) +
    Skink Skirmishers
    14x Skink Skirmisher [14x Javelin and Shield]

    Skinks [Kroxigor, Musician, Skink Brave, Standard Bearer]
    12x Skink

    + Special (120pts) +
    Ripperdactyl Riders [3x Ripperdactyl Rider]

    + Rare (138pts) +
    Razordon Hunting Pack
    2x Barbed Razordon [2x Additional Handler]

    Total: 899pts

    I have added an additional razordon, given the OB a mount and bought back my caster. The reasoning behind these additions were that I wanted my razordons to be a bit scarier than last match, where I felt he could mostly just ignore it, having an OB that couldn’t keep up with his unit was annoying, and I needed to get some use out of my power dice. I picked heavens because I really wanted to punish him for hanging back like he has done until now, with a big fat comet :)

    After rolling for spells, we got the following: Urannon’s thunderbolt, comet of cassandora (yay!) for me, killing blow, desiccation, birona’s timwarp and shem’s burning gaze for him.


    After setting up:

    WP_20150604_20_34_15_Pro.jpg

    We were in Khemri this time, and decided to battle over an old oasis in a narrow pass (we didn’t have impassable terrain along the edges though). Blue mats are swamps, cookie tray is a tower (with doors all around), red bee is a weird statue, and the basil is a tree with an extremely massive trunk ;) The red line at the back is where we agreed that the table ended.

    He has placed the necrotect and one mage in the skeletons, and the other mage in the middle archer unit.

    My rippers vanguarded up behind the tree in an attempt to weather the inevitable shooting, and the bloat toad went on the skeletons.

    Turn 1:

    Lizardmen

    After rolling, I got to go first. Since my threat range is exactly the width of the no-man’s land, I couldn’t shoot at anything, but just shuffled up:

    WP_20150604_20_39_24_Pro.jpg

    Ideally I would have placed the rippers behind the archers for maximum annoyance, but that was about an inch too far, so instead I’m hanging out right in their face, outside the front arc of the skeleton warriors.

    In magic I rolled 2+2. I used all four on comet, and got it off :) unfortunately my friend rolled double 6’s on dispelling :(


    Tomb kings:

    WP_20150604_20_53_34_Pro.jpg

    Chariots charge the skrox, and skeletons and snakes shuffle around. I think at this point my friend is regretting placing the building in the middle ;)

    The archers with the mage in runs into the tower.

    In magic, shem’s is cast on the rippers, and my friend tries to get off birona’s time warp on the chariots but fail (or is dispelled, I don’t remember). When the smoke has cleared, one ripper is down, and another is wounded.

    In shooting, he naturally throws everything at the rippers, but only downs the wounded one. Payback for his awesome shooting last game :)

    In close combat, the chariots kill two rank and file skinks, and are themselves obliterated. They put one wound on the krox. One of the chariots were killed by the stand-and-shoot, btw.


    Turn 2:

    Lizards:

    WP_20150604_21_25_07_Pro.jpg

    Ripper charges archers in the flank :)

    Razordons charge building.

    Winds of magic is 2+2 again, and this time I do manage to get comet off :) ! the marker is placed a couple of inches in front of the necro knights.

    In shooting I put all my skink shots on the snakes, resulting in two wounds :)

    In Close combat, the ripper kills 1 archer, 2 crumble, and it takes one wound itself.

    The razordons kill 3 archers, and they kill 1 handler back. I’ve put down that 3 skeletons crumble, though I must admit I don’t understand how that can be (it should only be two).

    Tomb Kings:

    WP_20150604_22_01_10_Pro.jpg

    The snakes and skeletons charge the skirmishers. I elect to stand and shoot against the snakes, and flee from the skeletons (my friend had let slip that he intended to charge with both, otherwise I would have fled from the snakes immediately). The skeletons fail their charge, the snakes redirect into the skrox, who also flee, making the snakes fail their charge as well.

    Magic:

    the comet gets another marker

    he rolls 4+6 powerdice, and manages to get killing blows on the archer unit in the tower, and desiccation on the OB. I tried to dispel the killing blow spell, but only managed to roll 13 on 6 dice… The KB spell raises 5 new archers.

    Shooting: the archers shoot at the skrox and put a wound on the kroxigor.

    Close combat: ripper kills 3 archers

    Turn 3:

    Lizards:

    WP_20150604_22_39_50_Pro.jpg

    We get into lengthy deliberations about what would happen if my OB charged the tower and challenged the caster. You can get in on the discussion by going here: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/refusing-challenge-within-a-building.16336/#post-130295 :) In the end we decide that the caster would be allowed to refuse the challenge, in which case I have no intention of putting my OB in a tower with 9 KB skeletons…. Since he is minus 1 to str and toughness, I don’t fancy charging the snakes either, and simply get into position to charge them later. The razordons are lined up to shoot the snakes (I can’t be bothered to charge the tower again, now that the possibility of downing the snakes completely has arisen).

    Both skirmishers and skrox rally.

    Magic: the comet comes down :) I roll distance 5 inches, and the comet puts 8 str 6 hits on snakes, archers in tower and skeletons, resulting in 1 dead snake, 7 archers and 4 skeletons. Not earth shattering, but very welcome :) I then get 3+4+1 power dice, and manage to get Urannon’s off on the lone snake. It dies, and my friend concedes the game.

    WP_20150604_22_53_07_Pro.jpg


    Post battle thoughts:


    We still have clutter issues :( Hopefully it will get better when there are fewer calls for rules-look-up’s, and less multifunctional terrain ;)

    My razordons are still misfire free :) I guess not shooting a single time in this match helped them keep the record clean ;)

    I really can’t put my finger on why this game came out so much better for me than usually (where I have been on my back foot the entire time). I think the narrow table helped me a lot, since my higher mobility meant that stuff didn’t get in each other’s way. My friend also usually doesn’t charge until turn 5, and getting that chariot out of the way early was helpful. However, my razordons would probably have shot them to pieces if given the chance, so I’m not sure how much he would have gained by waiting. My friend pointed out that I have inadvertedly created an avoidance list, which is probably true.

    I have to bring the heavens priest next match as well, but even if I wasn’t forced to, I think he’s a very nice choice against the type of TK lists that my friend has been bringing until now (though I doubt he’ll come without dispel scrolls next time…), as long as he gets his comet ;)

    Rules mistake:
    We thought that the defenders could perform their stand and shoot at short range, since we’re told that they will hold their fire if the enemy is out of range. However, we have since discovered that that was incorrect (they will apparently shoot as soon as the enemy is close enough, instead of waiting until they can get a good shot).

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any ideas on how to improve the list? I have 300 points to spend for the next battle. I originally thought they would be used on a slann, but that is impossible with the OB already in the list (since we stick by the 25% lords rule). The lazy option is just to stick two laser turtles in there (I would have to proxy one), which might also be very powerful, but do people have other suggestions? A unit of 6 krox would be a death star :)

    I’m a bit worried about sepulchral stalkers, to which I don’t really have an amazing response (except laser turtles…), but most likely my friend will bring a warsphinx – I think he has been looking forward to big monsters :)
     
  14. miturian
    Saurus

    miturian Member

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    The armies:
    My list:

    Same as last game, with two added bastiladons:


    + Lords (189pts) +
    Sarus Oldblood [Cold One, Enchanted Shield, Light Armour, Luckstone]

    + Heroes (190pts) +
    Skink Chief [Blowpipe, Light Armour, Shield]
    Battle Standard Bearer [Standard of Discipline]

    Skink Priest Level 2, heavens

    + Core (262pts) +
    Skink Skirmishers
    14x Skink Skirmisher [14x Javelin and Shield]

    Skinks [Kroxigor, Musician, Skink Brave, Standard Bearer]
    12x Skink

    + Special (120pts) +
    Ripperdactyl Riders [3x Ripperdactyl Rider]

    Bastiladon 1 (looks deceptively like a pokemon)

    Solar Engine

    Bastiladon 2

    Solar Engine

    + Rare (138pts) +
    Razordon Hunting Pack
    2x Barbed Razordon [2x Additional Handler]

    Total: 1199pts


    He brought:

    + Lords (235) +

    Liche high priest, hierophant, lvl 4, dispel scroll


    + Heroes (204) +

    Necrotect, dragonhelm

    Tomb prince, great weapon, dragonbane gem, glittering scales

    +Core (327)+

    22 Skeleton archers, fc

    3 chariots

    +Special (432)+

    3 Carrion

    3 necropolis knights

    3 sepulchral stalkers

    1198 in total



    Spells:

    He got

    Usirians incantation of vengeance (hex that causes dangereous terrain tests and reduces movement)

    Ptra’s incantation of righteous smiting (extra attacks)

    Khsar’s incantation of the desert wind (bubble that gives everything an extra movement phase)

    Djaf’s incantation of cursed blades (killing blow)


    While I got:

    Curse of the midnight wind (rerolling 6’s)

    Chain lightning


    After deployment and vanguard:

    WP_20150611_20_59_58_Pro.jpg

    I have put the bload toad on the archers. Not because I intend to charge them (I’d actually like to tie up the chariots), but because it’s nice to not have to worry about getting in a fight with them J

    I got first round:


    Turn 1:

    Lizardmen

    After movement:


    WP_20150611_21_06_41_Pro.jpg
    The rippers move up to be in everybody’s face, and be virtually impossible to charge.

    Magic: I remember the roll as being average. Bastiladon tries to shoot snakes, but is dispelled. Fortunately chain lightning goes off on the carrion, and makes its way all through the army. After the dust has settled, carrion has taken 5 wounds, 4 on snakes, and 4 on chariots.


    TK:
    WP_20150611_21_32_25_Pro.jpg
    Carrion charges rippers
    Archers reform to get hierophant out of overrun-range

    Magic is 4+1, and I let him get desert wind off, since I want to keep him from getting double attacks on the archers. Apparently bubbled desert is a pretty nice spell, so he gets 3w back on carrion, 1 wound on snakes and 2wound on chariots. Bummer

    He then puts cursed blades on the carrion, bringing them back to full health.
    In shooting, the archers and chariots kill 6 skirmishers

    In close combat, carrion takes 3 wounds, rippers two, so combat is a draw.


    Turn 2:

    Lizardmen
    WP_20150611_21_59_49_Pro.jpg


    Stuff moves up, he dispels all my magic. I find that bastiladons are not as good at drawing out dispel dice as I thought, given that a lvl 4 is almost guaranteed to beat a low roll on few dice, and if I throw a lot of die at it, suddenly the bound spell is the main act. This is pretty annoying.

    In shooting the razordons put three wounds on the chariots, rippers & carrion do 1 wound each. I am not impressed by my birds at all.

    TK:
    WP_20150611_22_23_44_Pro.jpg


    Chariots charge the skrox, take one wound from stand and shoot. Snakes charge the skrox. My friend first made sure that my skrox would have a very good chance of running off the board if I fled, so I held. Fortunately the snakes fail their charge (rolled a 4 with swiftstride…).

    Stalkers don’t appear.

    In magic I spend all my dice on blocking smiting, he gets KB on the chariots, and desert wind on everbody. This heals 3 wounds in total on the chariots.

    In shooting he kills 7 additional skirmishers.

    In close combat, carrion takes 1 wound, wipes out the rippers. Useless dinos.

    The chariots kill the krox and 7 skinks. This way the skrox loose steadfast and break, loosing the bsb and the standard. I don’t remember how many wounds I do in return, but clearly not enough.


    Turn 3:

    Lizards:

    To keep spirits high, my friend suggested that bastiladon 1 charge the archers to try and snipe the hierophant. I go along with it, and actually make the charge J

    OB + skinks rally.

    Bastiladon 2 charges the chariots in the flank.

    Magic does nothing, and the razordons put 3 wounds on the snakes.

    In close combat, bastiladon 1 kills the hierophant, and but flees from combat, proving himself to be a regular ninja turtle ;) Unfortunately the flee roll puts him right in front of the snakes.
    Bastiladon 2 does no wounds to the chariots, but wins combat by 2.

    TK:
    WP_20150611_23_36_13_Pro.jpg
    Snakes run down bastiladon 1

    Stalkers appear at the back

    Archers reform and put a wound on the razordons, or something like that

    Stalkers kill rest of the skinks, and puts two wounds on the oldblood (there were two few skinks left to guard him from the shooting).


    Turn 4:

    Lizardmen:
    WP_20150612_00_01_03_Pro.jpg
    I charge the old blood into the necropolis knights (to get away from the stalkers).

    The bastiladon finally manages to get a shot off, and rolls ….. 1… killing 1 archer. There seems to be very little point in this dinosaur.

    The razordons kill 4 archers.

    The OB kills 1 snake.

    TK:
    WP_20150612_00_04_10_Pro.jpg
    (picture is taken before the combat with the OB had been resolved)

    Archer unit, having reformed to a combat unit (more ranks), charges the razordons. I think I kill a handful from stand and shoot.

    Stalkers kill last skirmisher and puts a wound on the priest.

    OB finishes off snakes and reforms.


    Turn 5:

    OB charges the stalkers, since that is probably the only way I can get rid of them.

    I try to cast curse on the stalkers, but it is dispelled with IF on two dice…

    I think this is when the razordons are killed by the skeletons.

    And the OB is killed by the stalkers (he was only on one wound)…. Damnit.

    At this point I forfeit the game.


    At the end I have 250 pts on the board, and my friend has about 550 (including the 100 for downing the OB). If I had rolled a 3 instead of a 2 on the last armour save, it would have been almost exactly 450 each, and a pretty interesting final round (though he would probably have shot my priest to pieces in his next round).


    Post game thoughts:

    Finally I can get rid of the stupid, useless flying lizards.

    Also, I really have to do something about the stalkers, and I don’t know what. I have to keep important high-armour stuff in combat so it doesn’t get shot, and it seems skink-based shooting will be very useful, either on top of stegadons, or as skirmishers.

    And I clearly do not know how to use bastiladons against lvl 4 casters. The bound spell seems to be too easy to dispel to really draw out dice. Has anyone got any ideas for how use them efficiently?
     

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  15. Trociu
    Chameleon Skink

    Trociu Active Member

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    Personally I love to throw at least 4 dice on solar beam (when I have Slann), mostly 6 (without Slann). Of course it doesn't work every time but usually I like to have bastiladon with me, especially at low points. It can drain dispel dice, or could be good after your main spells were dispelled.

    I like the format you are playing, now I am convincing my dwarf friend to this :)
     
  16. miturian
    Saurus

    miturian Member

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    yes, I understand the 6-dice choice, because we don't worry about miscasts - but my problem is that with 4 dice, we're not just drawing dispel dice - that's a lot of dice in most magic rounds. On average we get 7 dice (not counting channels), and if you spend more than half of those on one spell, then I don't think that the opponent is put much at a disadvantage to dispel it. Even though he will on average only have 3.5 dice, if he has a lvl 4, he can dispel with fewer dice than I used to cast it, and I won't have the dice to cast whatever it is I don't want him to block.
    Do you agree with this, or am I seeing the scenario wrong?
     
  17. Trociu
    Chameleon Skink

    Trociu Active Member

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    Once I was told that mostly you should use 1 dispell dice more than opponents throw, because you obviously need better result than his. Furthermore, better not to use dispell dice for failed attempts - so you want to be sure you get to dispell. Of course you don't use this when opponent had thrown 4 ones :)

    This way when you use 4 dice out of 7, you opponent should use 3 dice + 4lvl caster leaving him with only 1 dice+ 4lvl caster. Bastiladon gets dispelled, other spell not.

    Good idea may be also to throw other spell but leave this 1 dice for basti. Opponent probably will have no dice and with basti you have like 70% chances to get it on 1 dice. Of course that is really dependand on situation.

    As I see you were unlucky with bastiladon. Yes, beam of Chotec often can be main act many times, I don't think it's bad. When you get it, it can be bad, average, or good spell. And you got the bad one. Maybe that made your attitude towards basti, or maybe mine is made of the first battle when i god good version :D
     
  18. miturian
    Saurus

    miturian Member

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    hmm, I just realized two rules mistakes we have been making:

    I have been using the skink's toughness instead of the ripper's toughness, not being aware of the rules errata (the rippers would most likely have been a lot more useful with that change)

    if chariots got resurrected in the turn they charged, we assumed they got impact hits too. they don't. that would actually have made a pretty big difference in the last game. oh well.
     
  19. borkbork
    Ripperdactil

    borkbork Active Member

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    I actually like to one dice the solar beam.
    it is 3+ so with one dice you have a 66% chance of casting.

    And i either use it as my first spell. Which, if cast succesfully will cause a huge dilemma on your opponent. Cause if he uses only one dice as well he will have a 33% chance of failing (regardless of modifiers) and to lose the wizard for the remaining magic phase. Or he has to roll 2 dice and he will be in a bad position for the rest of the phase. If he is smart he will roll a single dice, but will make sure he uses a lvl 1 or 2, instead of his lvl 4. But if he only has a lvl 1 that will also mean you have a better chance of getting through.

    Or I ll save 1 dice for last, when all his other dispel dice are spent.
     
    n810 likes this.
  20. miturian
    Saurus

    miturian Member

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    So, my friend and I decided to skip to the end on this one, and do 2k pts, random scenario, random terrain.

    (the game was over the summer, but stuff got in the way of my writing this batrep)

    The army lists were:

    TK:
    Lords:

    Liche priest, lvl 4 (hierophant, TK lore)

    Heroes:
    Lice priest, lvl 2, lore of death

    Necrotect

    Tomb Prince

    Core:
    40 skeleton archers, fc

    20 skeleton archers,

    5 skeleton horsemen

    5 skeleton horsemen

    Special:
    3 Necropolis knights, musician & standard

    3 Necropolis knights, musician & standard

    Rare:
    Casket of souls

    Hierotitan

    Screaming skull catapult



    Lizardmen:

    + Lords (415pts) +
    Slann Mage-Priest [Belcaming Cogitation, Channelling Staff, Harmonic Convergence, Resevoir of Eldritch Energy, Soul of Stone], lore of shadow

    + Heroes (286pts) +
    Skink Chief [Light Armour, Shield]
    Battle Standard Bearer [Standard of Discipline]
    Skink Chief [Berserker Sword, Enchanted Shield, Light Armour, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant, Ripperdactyl]
    Skink Priest [Dispel Scroll], lore of beasts


    + Core (715pts) +
    Saurus Warriors [Champion, Musician, 40x Saurus Warrior, Standard Bearer]
    Skink Skirmishers [15x Skink Skirmisher]
    Skink Skirmishers [10x Skink Skirmisher]
    Skink Skirmishers [10x Skink Skirmisher]

    + Special (580pts) +
    Bastilidon [Solar Engine]
    Jungle Swarm [3x Jungle Swarm]
    Temple Guard [Musician, Revered Guardian, 20x Temple Guard]
    Standard Bearer [Banner of Swiftness]


    The point of the list is to try out two new things: a fully kitted slann (they are the main reason why I got interested in lizardmen) and a big block of saurus with a buffing priest. I did not get any saurus characters because of all the killing blow running rampant through any TK list. The ripper chief is designed to get into combat and stay there, while the swarms are there to help the saurus against high-toughness monsters (I was sure my friend would be bringing sphinxes).


    We rolled “Blood and Glory”, with TK fortitude starting at 4 and lizzie starting at 5.


    For scenery, we at first rolled an obscene amount (I don’t remember, possibly 10 or something). Given that all our scenery still gets proxied, we decided to instead use a more manageable 5 pieces. As you will see below, the table still ended up looking horrible ;)

    We rolled altar of khaine, ghost fence, wall, haunted mansion and wizard’s tower. As you can see below, almost everything ended up in my end of the board, which probably did contribute to the final result.


    After deployment (and before vanguard) the table looked like this:

    1.jpg


    Note that the hierotitan is being proxied by a scorpion.

    I have placed the slann close to the tower, for obvious reasons (loremaster), and put the swarms out on the flank because they don’t care about leadership bubbles. I didn’t put them close to the saurus for two reasons: lack of room, and because there were no warsfinxes or similar (and I completely underestimated the hierotitan).

    Note that both units of snake riders are entombed beneath the sand.

    For spells, my priest swapped for the signature, the slann ended up with pit of shades, the signature, mindrazor and the extra movement one.

    I don’t remember exactly which spells he had (there were a ton), but he ends up with desiccation, the one that gives extra shots, killing blow, and purple sun, among others.

    My ripper chief vanguards up to be able to charge the archers.

    Tomb Kings went first.

    Round 1

    TK:

    WP_20150718_20_56_21_Pro.jpg

    No charges

    After channeling, 11 powerdice vs. 6 dispel dice

    He cast Desiccation on saurus, which I let through. In shooting, he manages to spook the 15 skirmishers and they and the priest decide to run off the board… In hindsight, I should probably have put the priest with the saurus, but I was forgetting how much shooting he actually had, and that the 15 skirmishers were outside of the leadership bubble…


    LZ:

    WP_20150718_21_25_49_Pro.jpg

    The ripper chief charges the front unit of archers.

    After channeling, there are 5 power dice and 5 dispel dice (my friend erroneously thought for the majority of the game that his casket also generated dispel dice, and I didn’t notice until later). I don’t get any spells through.

    The ripper chief kills 5 skeletons in combat (including crumble), and takes no wounds in return.


    Turn 2:

    WP_20150718_21_34_51_Pro.jpg

    The 40 archers trying to reform to get the hierophant out of the charge arch of the ripper chief, but spectacularly fails the roll for a free reform! Thus, they get a reform, but can’t do any shooting this round. Obviously this was pretty major.


    In Magic, TK generates 11 power dice versus my 7 dispel dice. He casts purple sun, it doesn’t hit anything, but lands in front of the saurus block.

    The snake riders come on the board directly behind thesaurus block, but one unit has to roll on the mishap table and is immediately destroyed.

    The hierotitan moves up, ready to charge the saurus.

    I don’t remember how the close combat went, but presumably I killed a few more archers.

    LZ:

    WP_20150718_22_30_45_Pro.jpg

    The swarms decide to charge the horse archers, and the saurus reform to face the snakes behind them.

    Otherwise skinks move up, and in magic there are 5 powerdice and an actual 6 dispel dice… (this is the casket messing stuff up). I don’t get to cast anything, and the purple sun fizzles out.

    In shooting, the skirmishers kill the casket!

    In cc, the ripper chief almost kills all archers (we are down to probably 1 archer and the priest)


    Turn 3:

    TK:
    WP_20150718_22_58_56_Pro.jpg
    The tomb prince from the big archer block decides to charge into the close combat.

    The snake riders and hierotitan also charge, and all make their charges.

    In magic, there are 4 power dice vs 5 dispel dice.

    My friend gets desiccation off with irresistible force on the saurus :(, the hierophant takes 1 wound. Archers and horses put 45 shots into the bastiladon, and don’t manage a single wound :)

    However, the catapult one-shots it :(

    In combat, 13 saurus are massacred, and only do 1 wound in return (on the snakes, I think).

    Meanwhile the haunted mansion is shooting at everybody (we decided that it would happily shoot into combat), and is actually doing more harm than I am (putting out a few wounds on the TK units).

    I think the ripper chief kills the liche priest.

    LZ:

    WP_20150718_23_33_39_Pro.jpg

    In magic, I have 4 powerdice versus 3 dispell dice, but don’t manage to get anything off (I really tried to get mindrazor off…)

    The skirmishers kill the catapult (clearly those little guys are punching way above their weight)

    In combat, the tomb prince murders the chief, taking 1 wound himself

    The saurus are further massacred, and run away, with only 4 left.

    Turn 4:

    TK:

    WP_20150718_23_52_05_Pro.jpg

    The horse archers catch the saurus.

    In magic there are 8 powerdice vs. 5 dispel dice.

    My friend casts desert wind on the archer block to get a reform. They again fail their free reform check, and can’t shoot at anything! That is spectacularly bad luck.


    LZ:


    Being now down to just my TG + slann, and the skirmishers, which will all surely perish in the next shooting phase, I decide to go for desperate measures: boosted pit of shades on the big archer block

    Stuff shuffles forward:

    WP_20150719_00_13_20_Pro.jpg

    In magic, I have 6 powerdice vs. 3 dispell dice.

    I throw all 6 at the spell, and get IF. The pit hits, and kills 14 archers, unfortunately all the characters make it (if the hierophant had perished, I would have won the game then per scenario rules).

    I roll…. 3 on the miscast table! That’s too low to be remedied by soul of stone. The blast covers the entire unit (except the BSB), and takes out 18 of the 20 TG…

    I call the game there, there is nothing I can do to remedy this.


    So… this was not a very satisfying game. At this point, we had been going for something like 4 hours (at least), and to have it all decided on two spells (his desiccation, my pit) felt very frustrating. Really, to have my entire combat block butchered because my friend got IF on a spell at power level 11, which was the reason why I had to go do something drastic like risking a miscast…. I was not in a good mood. It is definitely true that my friend also had some spectacularly bad rolls, and that the skirmishers were performing better than expected, but to have 415 pts of magic contribute absolutely nothing, and ditto for what is supposed to be the some of the best core infantry? If the saurus had at least left a dent in the attackers it would have been fine, but loosing something like 35 models and doing 1 or 2 wounds in return was just silly.

    I know people are saying to buff the saurus – seeing as I only got one spell through, and that on IF, it seems like I most likely would not have had the opportunity to do that. I maintain that bringing combat characters against TK is suboptimal – everything in this army has, or can get, killing blow, including the stuff that ended up butchering the saurus. Again, I wasn’t expecting them to just walk away from that, but this just made them seem pointless.

    I realise it might have gone slightly differently if the swarms had been in the combat, or been able to charge block the hierotitan.

    But, unless someone can point to some obvious mistake that was made in how we played the game, I have to say after this game I was feeling that perhaps leaving 8th behind will not be such a bad thing for us – it can be OK to have silly luck be an important factor, but not in a four hour game. If we could have just quickly played another one, and another one, then the fact that the outcome of the first one seemed to depend so much on things not immediately within our own control would not have been so frustrating.

    So, next game will probably be either KoW or AoS, we have yet to decide.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 12, 2015
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