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Fantasy vs AoS

Discussion in 'General Hobby/Tabletop Chat' started by PurpleandGold, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    50 Slayers are easy to deal with for WoC. I agree with you that relying on magic is not the right avenue of approach against Dwarfs, luckily I don't need it. 50 Slayers have a huge foot print and absolutely no defensive capabilities. Shooting-wise, 1 single hit from a Hellcannon will do a number on that unit. For the price of 50 Slayers, I could have 3 Hellcannons if I wanted to. You can fit a lot of tiny dwarf bases under that small blast template (a picture perfect shot can hit 21 guys). The blast is strength 5, so it will wound you on 3's and since you have no saves that is a mathematical average of 14 casualties. Admittedly, that is a direct hit, which only happens just under a third of times... but remember I can afford 3 hellcannons for the cost of your slayers. If you are lucky to get across the field, I would be able to mop up that unit in close combat with the very same hellcannons that whittled them down with shooting.

    The hellcannon is just one option; my Hortennse Lord can fly to the flank of your Slayer unit and drop a strength 4 breath weapon template on their head. With optimal placement you can hit about 30 guys. Then I wound on 4's and that results in 15 casualties. That is 180 points worth of Slayers for a breath weapon that cost me 30 points. Since my Lord can fly 20" and pays no heed to intervening units or terrain, there is nothing you can do to stop me from lining up the perfect shot every game. Or if I wanted to, I could simply neutralize your entire unit with that same Lord who is stubborn and will never die in combat... but I have no need to do that because I can kill your unit outright.

    That covers WoC shooting, now on to our specialty... close combat. Like I mentioned before, MoN and MoT Warriors units will beat your Slayers. The math you provided is incorrect. I've run the numbers and the Slayers lose. I'll probably breakdown the combat in a post following this one. It is important to note that my Warriors come out of core, while your Slayers come out of special. Now imagine what a 600 point unit of Skullcrushers (who are rare choices admittedly) will do to your poor Slayers!!

    Lastly, you mentioned your 15 inch charge range. That is your best case scenario, and will only turn up mathematically 1 in 36 charges. Your average charge range is only 10 inches. Yes, Warriors of only have a 1 inch better charge range and a 2 inch better march, but that is my point, you're putting far too much stock into uber large units of infantry. While it is true that an infantry death star can do well, it is also true that they can also be beaten or neutralized. In the case of your no armour save movement 3 dwarfs, this is doubly true.

    Fair enough.

    For the record, I am OBVIOUSLY not arguing that Tomb Kings are a better army than Dwarfs, because TK are far worse. Tomb Kings are in the bottom tier in terms of power level, while Dwarfs occupy the middle to middle-high tier. However, in terms of your Slayer unit, you might have just helped even the odds.

    First off, due to TK's Arrows of Asaph special rule, TK shooting ignores all modifiers to hit and not just cover. Long range means absolutely nothing to us. I'm not sure where you got the idea that only cover was negated. One of my favourite lists (my first TK list) features a Khalida-star unit of 75 skeleton archers. Due to her special rule, they hit on 4's and have the poisoned attacks special rule. Assuming a frontage of 20 models and the rules for volley fire, that gives you 20 + 20 + 10 + 8 = 58 shots! On average that will cause 16 wounds a round to your Slayers. So 3 rounds of shooting and you are dead. Even if a few of your guys were to make it into the archer unit, they have too many bodies and would be able to kill off the remaining Slayers themselves. Of course, being a death star itself, my Khalida-star can be countered as well, but it just happens to work out very well against your slayers. Not to mention if the TK player gets Righteous Smithing off, then that doubles the effectiveness of the Khalida unit. Now Dwarf anti magic is great as is TK magic, so that would be an interesting battle.

    Admittedly, the vast majority of TK lists do not feature the Khalida-star, but we actually don't need it against your Slayers. A couple of Screaming Skull catapults (which are found in just about every good TK list) will do very nicely. Although not as strong as the hellcannons mentioned above, they are dirt cheap. A couple of rounds of shooting and the unit will be cut down to size very easily.

    Perhaps not, Dwarfs are not my specialty. However, I do know that no competitive Dwarf list would field 50 Slayers. 600 points for a movement 3 unit that has no save is suicide. Slayers are a sub-par unit and are typically not featured in serious lists at all, let alone at the unit sizes you are talking about.
     
  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Actually it's the exact opposite of cockiness, it's based purely on math. Pure pure statistical mathy goodness, zero ego involved! .... okay, maybe a little ego, but it doesn't affect the results of the mathematical calculations.

    As I mentioned in my previous post, your mathematical analysis is incorrect.

    Here is breakdown of the Warriors vs. Slayers match-up.


    The Units

    50 Dwarf Slayers (with GW because they perform better than AHW) @12 pts/model = 600 points

    33 MoN Chaos Warriors (MoN, Halberds) @18pts/model = 594 points


    Assumptions/Scenario

    Slayers will use their great weapons because they are more effective than additional hand weapons. For the sake of this breakdown, I chose not to include champions because they make little difference on the calculations and open up unneeded complexities based on challenges and potential eye of the gods rolls (an unlikely a free daemon prince, might shake things up too much). The assumption is that both units are in hoard formation, so 10 model frontage. Even with the smaller base size, all 10 Warriors in the front rank are in base-to-base due to diagonals.

    Also, for simplicity I will round all casualty results to the nearest whole number.

    To Hit, To Wound & Saves

    Slayers: Hit on 5's (WS4 vs. WS5, MoN -1 to hit), Wound on 3's (S5 vs. T4), Warriors have a 6+ armour save (after strength modifier)

    Warriors: Hit on 3's (WS5 vs. WS4), Wound on 3's (S5 vs. T4), Slayers have no saves


    Round 1 (33 Warriors remaining, 50 Slayers remaining)

    33 Warriors (20 + 10 + 10 = 40 attacks): 40*(4/6)* (4/6) = 18 casualties

    32 Slayers (10+10+10+18 via deathblow = 48 attacks): 48*(2/6) *(4/6)*(5/6) = 9 casualties

    WoC win combat, Slayers are unbreakable.


    Round 2 (24 Warriors remaining, 32 Slayers remaining)

    24 Warriors (20 + 10 + 4 = 34 attacks): 34*(4/6)* (4/6) = 15 casualties

    17 Slayers (10 + 7 + 15 via deathblow = 32 attacks): 32*(2/6) *(4/6)*(5/6) = 6 casualties

    WoC win combat, Slayers are unbreakable


    Round 3 (18 Warriors remaining, 17 Slayers remaining)

    18 Warriors (20 + 8 = 28 attacks): 28*(4/6)* (4/6) = 12 casualties

    5 Slayers (5 + 12 via deathblow = 17 attacks): 17*(2/6) *(4/6)*(5/6) = 3 casualties

    WoC win combat, Slayers are unbreakable


    Round 4 (15 Warriors remaining, 5 Slayers remaining)

    15 Warriors but only 6 in base contact (12 + 5 = 17 attacks): 17*(4/6)* (4/6) = 8, which removes the last 5 Slayers

    0 Slayers (5 via deathblow = 5 attacks): 5*(2/6) *(4/6)*(5/6) = 1 casualty

    Slayers are completely wiped out and 14 Chaos Warriors remain to celebrate and toast their victory to the dark gods :)! I could have substituted in sword and board MoT warriors and the results would be similar (but it would take a bit longer).


    MoT warriors would have a 5+ armour save and a 5+ ward save. Don't forget that the MoT ward save stacks with the 6+ parry save.

    God I love WoC :D
     
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  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I agree that if you play without tactics in 8th edition you still have a chance of winning, it is a dice game after all. However, be honest, if a player is playing without tactics against someone using tactics, way more often than not the tactically sound player will win.
    That is extremely simple. But it can be countered. As I said before:
    • uber spells
    • templates (this is not a great choice against specifically the ironguts deathstar due to their large base size, but against most others it works)
    • other death stars
    • redirection and neutralization
    • and I should add my personal favourite: the WoC Hortennse Lord! (there are a few other armies that can also pull off some sort of variant of this build, even if the WoC version is the best)
    So the simple tactic that you describe will work if your opponent doesn't use the appropriate counter tactic. But against a great player your Irongut Star + Mournfang will likely fail. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the list that was dominating the tournament scene.

    Sure it is. If you employ a simple strategy, which I analyse and find a simple counter to, that is the tactical move on my part. It may be a simple tactic, but it is still a tactic. Sometimes if you want to drive a nail into the wall, you just hit it with a hammer!

    Not to mention that all the other strategies I mentioned still apply.

    That's one thing I love about 8th edition, there is such a range of tactical strategy that can be employed. Tactics range from the extremely straight forward point and click approach all the way up to the tiniest of nuances. If the game only worked under the strictest of tactics, it would be very good at all because it would be closed off to the vast majority of people.


    Not all countermeasures will be available in all army lists. As a general, when list building you have to plan for some countermeasure, otherwise you have devised a poor list. But of course, I must concede that a bit of the rock-paper-scissor effect does exist within WFB in terms of setting up armies.
     
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  4. Killer Angel
    Skar-Veteran

    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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    Flames cannot ignite when debaters are so reasonable. ;)
     
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  5. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    But it is still a sound investment to carry a Dragonbane Gem at all times! :D
     
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  6. Killer Angel
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    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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    Especially for TK Player... ;)
     
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  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Touche!

    It's nice to get some 8th Edition discussion in! Too much AoS around these parts (for my personal liking).
     
  8. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Terradon

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    Ah, now you're including allied missile weapons! So that means I can bring a few Organ Guns into play against your Chaos Warriors! Each one fires 2 artillery dice worth (up to 20) Strength 5 Armour Piercing shots and only misfires on a double-misfire - I will hit you on 4s, wound you on 3s and you once again you will have only a 6+ save - Organ Guns are found in all competent Dwarf lists especially now that the 8th Edition book has really upped their performance - a single one would be able to kill around 4 or 5 Chaos Warriors in your unit every turn, and that's without Runes. Two or 3 would be able to kill around a third of your unit every turn. 3 turns later and you would be dead. It would be far too fair on you if I didn't soften up your Chaos Warrior unit with shooting first. I could also include one or more Grudge Throwers or Flame Cannons with lovely template weapons - the bane of hordes everywhere. So if I played really brutally I reckon there would be less than 20 Chaos Warriors by the time my Slayers got into melee with them.

    Also, if the Slayers charged they would wound on 2s in the first turn as they get an additional +1 Strength on the charge (Resolute) and if I rolled a 5 or 6 on the Ancestral Grudge table they would also hate your Chaos Warriors, so I would be able to re-roll all my failed rolls to hit in the first turn - I would probably be able to kill 48 * (2/6 +2/6) * 5/6 *5/6 = 22 Casualties to your 18 - Dwarfs win the combat and Chaos Warriors need to take a leadership test on a -4 penalty, testing on a paltry leadership value of 4 after combat resolution. If you stay, you will have only 11 Warriors left.

    Next round: WoC: 22*4/6*4/6 = around 10 Casualties
    Slayers: 32*2/6*4/6*5/6 = around 6 Casualties

    5 Chaos Warriors left, 22 Slayers remaining
    Next Round: WoC: 10*4/6*4/6 = 4 Casualties
    Slayers: 22*2/6*4/6*5/6 = 4 Casualties
    Slayer win because Chaos Warriors have no banner by this time and Slayers outnumber them, take a leadership test on a -2 penalty, I.e. a leadership of 6. If you stay, your one Warrior will be butchered and there will be at least 20 Slayers toasting their victory in the name of Grimnir! They may not survive against any other units themselves but can back up other Dwarf units in fighting other Chaos units.

    Regardless on whether I charge or you charge, Slayers would do their job as a suicide bomb, as they would certainly make your Chaos Warriors pay dearly. Of course it all depends on the dice too - sometimes my Slayers would get an amazing set of rolls, sometimes your Chaos Warriors would get an amazing set. The Dice Gods know about things like that. I'm sure you'll agree there. I don't play competitive anyway - I just thought of using 50 Slayers for the fun of seeing 50 Dwarfs with Mohawks wear down a unit of overpowered armoured villains.

    The Dark Side doesn't always win...:cool:
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
  9. Killer Angel
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    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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    Well, artillery in 8th tends to be overpowered for its cost, and dwarven one is the most reliable of the game.

    It's like saying that in a brawl i am stronger than you because my cousin is Bruce Lee...
     
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  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The difference is that I was giving different unique options to deal with the Slayers and not units working in conjunction with my warriors. The warriors can beat the Slayers on their own without any need for help. Of course you can use your artillery to whittle my Warriors, that has been my point from the start: giant deathstars (including Warriors) are not invincible and countermeasures are available to defeat them! Of course my warriors will lose to your Slayers + Warmachines. But how is that fair, now you're fielding significantly more points?

    Now if you want to bring other units into the foray, I simply throw down my Hortennse Chaos Lord. I would argue that he is the single greatest non-caster Lord in the game. He would do such a number on your slow army and you would have very little that you could do in response.


    That is a lot of very favorable ASSUMPTIONS being made on your part
     
  11. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Terradon

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    You were talking about using Hellcannons - I was just saying that if you take Hellcannons to whittle my Slayers down, I would just take some Organ Guns to whittle down your Warriors - that's all. And I agree now on your point - Death Stars can be destroyed, although not with a Proton Torpedo up the main reactor in Warhammer...

    He would - I agree with you there. I took a sneak peek on Everchosen to research him - 3+ Ward and 1+ armour? That would annihilate any army! It's like my Phaeron with Sempiternal Weave and Phase Shifter - 2+ Save and 3+ Invulnerable has seen him take out a squad of Terminators by himself!

    Mere assumptions can become reality if you play tactically and have some luck on your side...:cool:

    But then Fantasy is a tactical game for the tactics conoisseur like you and me! :)
     
  12. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I guess we are in agreement then. Organ Guns can definitely do a number on Warriors, and they are to be feared. The only advantage the Hellcannon has is that is much more difficult to kill via anti-warmachine tactics. Of course, I'm not about to make the statement that WoC are going to out Artillery Dwarfs; Dwarfs are the best Artillery army in the game.

    The Hortennse Lord is amazing and my go to counter to take out or neutralize the nastiest thing my opponent fields. There are several different builds to him, but they all feature a 1+ armour save and a 3+ ward save (re-rolling 1's). Also, most Hortennse Lords also feature the Soul Feeder daemonic gift, which allows him to roll a d6 for each unsaved wound he causes (in CC), on are roll of 6 he regains a wound lost earlier in battle. Meaning that his heal rate in combat is typically greater than the rate he takes wounds.

    In addition to above, my personal setup is typically on a flying disc of Tzeentch, with a the Crown of Command (stubborn), Dragon Helm and usually a breath weapon.

    Other popular setups include:
    • subbing out the disc of Tzeentch for a daemonic mount (sacrificing the fly ability for even more punch in combat and immunity to killing blow) or
    • putting him in a unit so he doesn't need the crown of command and giving him a re-rollable 1+ armour save. That gives him a 1+ armour save (with rerolls) AND a 3+ ward save (re-rolling 1's).

    I like my setup because it makes him the most versatile. I sacrifice the tiniest bit of defense, for mobility which ensures that I engage my enemy on my terms (both in terms of when and in terms of who).

    Sure if you start to make a whole bunch of assumptions that all work in your favor, Slayers can beat Warriors. The analysis I gave you was a fair and even breakdown of the two units fighting in a vacuum.

    Statistically, the Warriors are more likely to land the charge because they have a superior charge range (even if the advantage is only 1 inch).

    Statistically, you only have a 33% chance of landing your needed Ancestral Grudge roll.

    So each of the factors you mentioned are statistically more likely to fail than they are to succeed. But you made the assumption that they are both simultaneously in effect, that is a very unlikely outcome! So we end up being back in the same spot, odds are that the Warriors beat the Slayers. And that is 600 points of CORE beating 600 points of SPECIAL. They are just my core tax, imagine if that were 600 points of Skullcrushers (rare). :wideyed:
     
  13. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Terradon

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    Games Workshop Meme.jpg
    Hope you can see the text OK. Made it myself words and all!

    :p
     
  14. Killer Angel
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    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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    Not SO clear, but I've read it. ;)
     
  15. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    Very good and funny :p
     
  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Hahaha... that's good!
     
  17. Killer Angel
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    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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  18. Aginor
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    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    Haha I didn't know that old model!
    He has sure come a long way it seems.
     

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