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8th Ed. High Elf Tactica (detailed)

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Scalenex, Apr 11, 2012.

  1. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I’ve played my Lizardmen versus High Elves and I’ve played High Elves versus Lizardmen. I thought about collecting HEs myelf and I pondered their book thoroughly. That being said I haven’t seen every unit in action and I certainly haven’t seen every possible LM unit match up against every HE unit.

    Part One: High Elves versus Lizardmen

    The Basics: All non-character High Elves have roughly the same stats.
    M5 WS4 or 5 BS4 S3 or 4 T3 W1 I5 or 6 A1* Ld8 or 9
    *Only Sword Masters have two attacks.

    All High Elves have Always Strike First, even with great weapons. With their high initiative they nearly always get the reroll against LM barring magical items or spells that counteract that. Combined with their high WS, they hit most of the time. Their low Toughness score means we wound them pretty easily. HE Infantry have Armor Save 5+ or 6+, so unless you are planning to send your reptiles at their cavalry or characters, you don’t every need anything about Strength 5 to bring down pointy ears.
    HEs have a lot of redundant units. Two Core unit archers , two Core unit Spearmen options, two great weapon elite infantry, two heavy cavalry options, and two chariot options. That’s of little tactical import, but I find it mildly amusing.
    The Ulthuan forum has a Tactics index which makes me weep with jealousy you can go for all the HE elf information you long for,
    http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=36153

    High Elf army lists are often built around large blocks of elite infantry, large number of cavalry, and/or large numbers of shooters. Most lists are more balanced and have mix of the basic types.

    Core

    Most HE collectors dream wistfully of their upcoming 8th edition rule book when their Core will be revamped. It’s largely viewed as overpriced and a little flat, especially in comparison to their elite infantry (which are awesome). Most HE lists strive to keep their Core expenditure as close to 25% as possible.

    Spearmen: High Elf spearmen get an extra rank of supporting attacks versus the spearmen of other races. This means lots of attacks. ASF means lots of hits. The hits are S3 so they don’t score a lot of wounds, particular against units with good saves. If you are fighting these guys try to support any unit fighting them if you can, but they are on the whole probably a minor threat related to the rest of the units on the list. Toughness 3, AS 5, they die fairly easily against most things north of a skink.

    Archers: Basic elf stat line with long bows, light armor option. Missile fire is less threatening in 8th edition than in previous editions. With the right spells for support they can be dangerous. There shooting can’t be ignored in any case as LM are likely to field small squishy units of skirmishers. I’ve seen them kill more in close combat than with shooting. They still have high WS and ASF, so they can fight about as well as spearmen. When you are so concerned with the elite infantry it’s easy to let the archers you’ve been ignoring all game get a flank charge on one of your engaged units. Usually HE lists take a mix of spearmen and archers, but every once in a while you see someone taking archers for all of their Core. In which case you can either expect to be spammed with units of ten or be facing blocks of 20-40 that start up in wide lines to shoot and then close up into ranks when you get into charge distance.

    Lothern Sea Guard: Are spearmen and archers too dull for you? Try a hybrid! These guys have spears and bows! Sea Guard are viewed as a subpar Core choice. Archers are cheaper and shoot slightly farther (long bows versus bows). Spearmen are cheaper and don’t have to buy the shield as an add-on. When you do see them, they tend to be deployed as archers who can fight rather than as spearmen who can shoot. Usually in groups of 20 lined 10 wide, they’ll shoot at you as much as they can, then condensing into four ranks of five as enemies come within charge range.

    Special, Cavalry

    Ellyrian Reavers: Fast cavalry. Can have spears, bows or spears with bows. I haven’t seen them in play much being viewed as one of the weaker HE Special units. They are viewed as inferior at running interference versus Great Eagles and inferior to the other cavalry at killing things. That being said, Ellyrian Reavers are greater threat to us than most other armies. Fast Cavalry is always a threat to skirmishers and we have a lot of them.

    Silver Helms: Pretty vanilla. 2+ AS (though shields are theoretically optional making them 3+ under a cheap skate general), M9, S3 (5 on a charge). Like any other cavalry if you can deny them the charge they are a lot less threatening. Because of their high armor save and low toughness they are tempting target for Salamanders, but keep in mind that Elves are fast. If your Salamanders get charged they will probably die.

    Dragon Princes of Caledor: The same as Silver Helms in most respects with a few bonuses. They have a +2 Ward Save versus flaming attacks, +1 I vs. Silver Helms, a +2 Ward Save versus flaming attacks, +1 Ld, and a +2 Ward Save versus flaming attacks. Given that they have a +2 Ward save versus flaming attacks, any HE player who realizes just how nasty Salamanders are will point them at your Salamanders. Given the +2 Ward save versus flaming attacks, you need to be careful sending your Temple Guard against them if you are like me and like to give them the Banner of Eternal Flame. Dragon Princes can take magic standards and the HEs have a banner that grants Strider for only 15 points, many players choose to take said standard so not to lose 30 points per failed roll on dangerous terrain tests. EDIT: It’s worth pointing out the riders have two attacks each.

    Tiranoc Chariot: Vanilla chariot. M9 like all elven horsey units. One of the few things on the HE list with T4. Like most chariots, when it’s not charging it’s not a threat. At 85 points a piece, a HE player can theoretically spam you with them Chariots, but most want to spend their Special points on some elite infantry.

    Lion Chariots: White Lion chariots are like Tiranoc Chariots only they have M8 instead of 9 and Cause Fear. Both the riders and the mounts hit at higher Strength though the impact hits are the same. Even on the receiving end of the charge, these units aren’t pushovers.

    Special, Infantry
    The Special choice infantry are the MVPs of the current army book. Unless the army is relying heavily on cavalry, most armies will have 2-3 blocks of elite infantry. All three of the top choices below can take magical standards.

    Sword Masters of Hoeth: They are priority one to bring down with LM shooting . They have ASF depite their great weapon and they have two attacks, that many S5 attacks are hard to overcome in close combat. At toughness 3, AS 5 they drop pretty easily to Salamanders and poison shooting. Since they outclass every unit on the LM unit in close combat you need to shoot them down to a manageable size before they reach your infantry blocks or dinos.

    White Lions of Chrace: White Lions are nearly as dangerous in close combat as Sword Masters. They only get one attack, but their one attack is at S6. They are also Stubborn and have Forest Strider. Most important for a LM player’s view, their lion pelts plus their heavy armor gives them an armor save of 3+ versus shooting attacks so they laugh at skink fire and even get a 6+ save versus Salamanders. They are thus harder to whittle down via shooting than Sword Masters. Forest Strider means our skirmishers have to work harder to force them to take dangerous terrain tests. Thin them out with spells if you can, unlike their DE equivalents, their fancy pelts don’t give them a bonus save versus magic.

    Pheonix Guard: Pheonix Guard hit at S4 (thanks to their Halberds), have a 5+ AS and WS 5 like the two elite infantry units proceeding them. What sets them apart is that they cause Fear and have a 4+ Ward save. The ultimate anvil, they are very hard to kill. When equipped with a Razor Standard their killing power is pretty good and they become an omni-unit capable of dominating offense and defense.

    Shadow Warriors: HEs archers with Scout. Not a popular choice on most HE lists. They have bows and fight with WS 5, but they still hit at S3 like most other elves. Since we don’t have a lot of war machines or other units particularly vulnerable to scouts, they aren’t a serious threat to LM armies. Chamo skinks are cheaper than Shadow Warriors by a fair bit, and will beat Shadow Warriors in a shooting contest as their foes lack poison and the camouflage. Shadow Warriors outclass regular skinks on a model per model basis (what doesn’t?), but regular skink skirmishers outclass them in shooting by far on a point for point basis. If you can prevent them from charging your skirmishers you can probably afford to ignore them entirely if you choose.

    Rare

    Great Eagle: High Elves are an elite army so they can take twice as many Rares or Specials as normal. High Elf units are so expensive the only unit you are likely to see HE generals doubling up on is Eagles. They are as useful for High Elf players as Salamanders are for us (though they do they fill completely different niches). They aren’t just for hunting war machines. To go over all the nasty things Great Eagles would do could fill a Tactica threat by itself….and here it is! Many of these same tricks work for Terradon riders, so it’s worth boning up on.
    http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=33028
    Fortunately we have a very easy counter for Eagle based mischief. With three wounds and no AS, Eagles fall prey to poisoned shooting fairly easily. They also are vulnerable to Lore of Heavens casters due to the Lore attribute and we have lots of those. EDIT: From a LM perspective, make sure they don’t make a suicide run on a Skink Priest with an EOTG.

    Repeater Bolt Thrower: Some HE players like these, some don’t. RBT have different ways they can fire. First one functions like a BRB bolt thrower with a 48 inch range. The second mode shoots six S4 shots with -2 to armor saves, also at 48 inch range. Either relies on the BS 4 of the shooters and can be boosted with the Curse of Arrow Attraction. Like most war machines, they can be killed by Terradons and Chamo Skinks fairly easily.

    Characters

    Prince: A naked Prince is quite unremarkable. Like all elves they have T3. They have Ld 10 and WS 7 though with a base strength of 4, they need a great weapon or a magic weapon to have a decent chance to wound. Princes have eight different mount options. The HEs have a huge variety of magical item options, so a Prince can fill almost any niche. The most common role they play is a heavy hitter riding with a large block of cavalry. The most unusual role is fighting wizard. They can take a 45 point item to cast spells as a level one High wizard leaving them 55 points to take other magic items making it superior to the Wizarding Hat.

    Noble: Basic mini-me of the Prince. They can do most things a Prince can do (except ride a dragon or griffon). They are also the HE’s sole BSB option. Most BSBs take the Armor of Caledor, 25 points for a 2+ save that can’t be improved along with a great weapon and a protective talisman of some kind.

    Archmage, Mage: High Elves are one of the few armies besides ours that can use all eight BRB lores, so you can expect about anything. High Elf armies get +1 to dispel attempts as long as they have at least one wizard alive. Both mages can ride horses or in chariots. Archmages can ride dragons or eagles too.
    HEs have one of the widest selections of useful arcane items and wizard friendly Enchanted items of all the armies with 7th ed army books. With the right item, HE wizards can choose their spells instead of rolling, take an extra spell, convert an enemy power die into one of their dispel die, gain a free power die (only once per turn though), manipulate miscast rolls of their enemies, ignore their first miscast, and/or make the wearer immune to non-magical attacks (but be able to attack themselves).

    High Elves also have their own unique Lore, High Magic. Generally it’s viewed as being less powerful than the more popular BRB lores but I’m summarizing it because it’s still a popular choice for HE players.

    Being a holdover from 7th edition, they don’t have the same mechanics for signature spells. Every caster of High Magic gets Drain Magic for free. They can swap their rolled spells for Shield of Saphery.

    Drain Magic, 7+: Raises the casting level of all spells (including HE spells) are +3 casting till the start of the HE’s next magic phase. It’s common to save one or two dice to cast this spell as the last spell every phase. Low magic lists lean heavily on this spell to nerf enemy caster phases slightly.

    Shield of Saphery, 5+: Buff spell grants one friendly unit within a 5+ Ward Save.

    Curse of Arrow Attraction, 6+: Hex that lets enemies reroll to-hit rolls on the target unit with BS based shooting. Not to be underestimated. With enough hits even S3 shooting will add up.

    Courage of Aenarion, 8+: Friendly units within 12” are stubborn.

    Fury of Khaine, 8+: Generic magical missile, 2d6 S4 hits.

    Flame of the Phoenix, 11+: Remains in Play, each target model in the unit takes a S3 hit, then next magic phase (EDIT the damage only happens on the HE turn) they take a S4 hit, then S5 on the HEs next phase. And so on and so forth until you are wise enough to dispel the nasty thing or the unit dies. This spell is basically High Magic’s answer to Dwellers and Final Transformation and should prioritized accordingly with your dispel dice.

    Vauls Unmaking 12+: Very situational in its usefulness, this is a Hex that nullifies magic items in a unit.

    Dragon Mage of Caledor: A level one or level two Lore of Fire mage that rides a dragon. They get a free power die when casting spells just like the Slann, but they don’t add +1 to dispel rolls like regular mages. You don’t take this guy for the spells though, you take him if you like dragons. When you see these guys take the field, odds are that the HEs lord (be he Prince or Archmage) is also riding a dragon. That’s why I got interested in collecting HEs in the first place, I have a fondness for giant reptiles and would love to field two dragons in a 2000-2500 point game.

    Special Characters: The High Elves have several special characters. The only one worthy of getting concerned about is Teclis. There are stores out there that prohibit Teclis and don’t restrict anything else from official books. I never played vs. Teclis myself, but I know Teclis is a better wizard than a discipline loaded Slann. Teclis gets lore master (in any of the nine lores), +d3 power dice and dispel dice every turn, achieves irrestiable force on any double, ignores one miscast per turn, and has a dispel scroll item that erases the spell it stops from the mind of an enemy caster for the whole game. He also has a sword that lets him wound on 2s and ignore AS for his one attack, but that’s not really important. if Teclis is in close combat he’s in trouble. You are directing every possible attack against him, right?

    He’s got two weak points (besides barely fighting better than HE archer in close combat) and that is S2 and T2. Anything that forces a strength or toughness test will cause Teclis a lot of problems. Hence the Blood Statuette of Spite is sometimes thought of as a Teclis killer. Becalming Cognition is naturally standard issue for fighting Teclis, but that will only get you so far.
     
  2. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Part Two Lizardmen versus HEs

    High Elves are an elite army and their units are expensive as a rule (not that Lizardmen are cheap per se). Make sure you can wield numerical advantage whenever you can. You want to deny them steadfast whenever possible and try to double team units when possible. HEs are mobile as a rule, don’t let them engage your units one at a time. If you do, the HE elite-ness will shine brightly, and you’ll lose your army piece by piece.

    Any list strategy can work versus HE in the hands of a skilled general, but you are probably better off taking a Traditional Army or Saurus Army. If you play a Skirmisher list you have to be very careful versus enemy cavalry. It’s one thing to keep a few skirmishers away from the charging horses of death, but it’s another to keep an entire army of skirmishers out of harm’s way. A Fast Attack LM army would be pretty effective against most HE shooting and infantry block lists. HE mobile units tend to outperform our mobile units so a Fast Attack LM list will be disadvantaged against a HE list based around their mobile units.

    Core

    Saurus: With their two attacks, superior Strength, T, and AS for comparable cost, Saurus outclass all the HE core. Superior WS and ASF can’t be discounted, so don’t take your Saurus’ superiority for granted. If you can double team HE Core do so and take them out quickly before the HEs can get a supporting charge of their own in. Saurus will die in droves against most HE elite troops without support of some kind.

    Skink Cohorts: Skroxigor aren’t a terrible choice for making supporting attacks, but they are less useful against HEs than against most opponents. The S6 hits the Kroxigor inflicts are overkill since S5 is all you really need in most cases. Skinks are one of the few units we have that HE Core can wound easily, so be wary of giving your opponent free CR points if your units don’t have the ranks to maintain steadfast. EDIT: I have had an about face on the use of Skroxigor. I think they have a good niche fighting White Lions and to a lesser extant Swordmasters since the enemy attacks will be wasted on the puny Skinks and the Kroxigors can cut through the White Lion's armor quite easily.

    Skink Skirmishers: Given how easily skinks die against HE’s you want to think through any supporting charges you are considering with skinks very carefully. If skinks were purchased for their CC prowess, no one would use them against any army of course. Sacrificial skinks are good at redirecting charges away from your more valuable units. As usual they are good whittling things down with shooting too.

    Jungle Swarms: HEs mobile and don’t usually hit very hard. You could use them to stall enemy units with a swarm (that’s why we have swarms right?). HEs do score a lot of hits though so your swarms won’t last very long.

    Special

    Chameleon Skinks: Chameleon skinks are good at taking out Repeater Bolt Throwers. They are also great for knocking out eagles or thinning out sword master blocks. There are plenty of low AS targets in the HE army to keep Chamo skinks busy all battle. Just make sure they stay out of the charge arcs of eagles and cavalry.

    Terradons: Good for your standard Terradon tasks of going after war machines, assassinating wizards, destroying fleeing units, and the like. Anything the Eagles can do Terradons can do (though not as well since they cost more per unit).

    Temple Guard: Temple Guard will cut through HE Core without breaking a sweat. Against elite HE elites expect a high body count on both sides (unless you have the TG fighting a block of Phoenix Guard, then you’ll have a lot of dice rolling on both sides with relatively little blood spilled). Don’t count on the Temple Guard’s stats to win the battle for you even with buff and hex spells. HEs are more mobile than we are, so you have to be careful to avoid your Temple Guard being flanked.

    Cold One Cavalry: HE Cavalry is slightly overpriced. Saurus Cavalry is very overpriced. A heavy cavalry slug-out will probably not go in your favor very often. COR have their place making supporting charges to our infantry or clearing away light units like Reavers and Shadow Warriors, but they are probably a subpar choice versus HE.

    Kroxigor: Kroxigor are a subpar choice versus HEs. As mentioned before, S5 will wound elves on 2s and negate most armor saves, so the Kroxigors S6 hits aren’t really necessary. They are expensive per model and numbers tell. Even spear elves should be able to beat Kroxigors without a lot of fuss through high numbers of hits. If you have Kroxigor fighting HEs, try to point them at the enemy cavalry where their high Strength attacks won’t go to waste, or use them to make supporting flank charges so they don’t have to face as many attacks.

    Stegadons: Stegadons are awesome versus HEs. S5 hits will take down a lot of elves and the HEs lack hard hitting artillery that so many other armies have that’s so fanatic at bringing down our large dinosaurs. That being said, they aren’t invincible and need infantry support to survive long enough to kill their points worth of enemy troops. Any unit can bring a Stegadon down with enough light hits. The elite infantry units are more than a match for unsupported Steggies. Sword Masters and White Lions will bring down a Stegadon pretty quickly laying down high strength attacks. PG can tie up a Stegadon and win a war of attrition, ignoring half the wounds inflicted on them and nickeling and diming a Stegadon to death. Keep in mind that elves are a very mobile force, particularly when they lean heavily on their cavalry. Don’t let them get the charge on your Steggies and deny you your impact hits.

    Rare

    Salamanders: High point units of T3 troops make Salamanders very happy. Salamanders hit hard enough to be okay making supporting flank charges too. Keep in mind that Dragon Knights have a 2+ Ward Save versus fire. A wise HE player will make sure Dragon Knights are between your Salamanders and his infantry blocks at all times. Not every list has dragon knights, but you’ll want an anti-knight contingency plan in case the situation comes up.

    Razordons: I only tried Razordons versus HEs once and they were stuck with only White Lions to shoot at so they accomplished little. I can only speculate that a reasonable variety of S4 hits will put the hurting on HEs. You are probably better off taking Salamanders or Skink Skirmishers for shooting your foes.

    Ancient Stegadons: The S6 hits are unnecessary against most HE units but the improved AS and stand and shoot do give them advantages over the regular Steggy. It’s debatable whether it’s worth the extra points. If you prefer Ancient Steggies over the vanilla variety, don’t let this thread stop you.

    Characters

    Slann: Slann are good against most armies and they are good against High Elves. Even without Teclis, the High Elves mighty arsenal of arcane items makes them formidable in their magic phase. It’s important to be able to answer their magic tit for tat. Becalming Cognition and Cupped Hands are nice for magical control like with most armies. Against a non-Teclis army Becalming Cognition isn’t necessary but it comes in handy.

    The Slann are usually the primary target of most of our opponents. If you go with a Temple Guard bunker, be ready to fend off lots of magic thrown at it. If you go with the lone Slann you have to be extra cautious. HE don’t have artillery that can seriously threaten a Slann, but they do have Eagles, Shadow Warriors, three cavalry choices, and a variety of flying characters. All of which could theoretically force your Slann in close combat and kill him.


    Lore Selection for Slann
    Life is a good choice as usual. Anything that boosts the survivability of your units is a good idea. High Elf units area expensive point wise so if you can force a battle of attrition with Life buffs on your side, you are probably going to win eventually when their forces run out.

    Light is an excellent choice versus HEs. With buffs to boost WS, I, and bestow ASF it can potentially nullify the HEs advantages in close combat and lets your troops superior Strength and Toughness carry the day. Banishment is great for knocking expensive chunks out of elite units, especially Dragon Knights.

    Death is an okay choice versus HEs. Purple Sun isn’t worth much given the high Initiative scores elves tend to have, but the Strength and Toughness based sniper spells are deadly. HE heroes like everything else, cost a lot of points so losing them hurts. Knocking their S and T on Elves further to skink levels is also nice as is dropping their Ld down a peg. If you aren’t into character sniping, Death is probably not for you.

    Shadow is an okay choice versus HEs. Hexing an enemy’s strength and toughness isn’t as critical with elves as with other armies but it doesn’t hurt. Hexing the weapon skill is always nice. Okham’s Mindrazor is still badass even if S8 is a little overkill against elves. It should be your go-to spell for fighting heavily armored cavalry. If you are fielding a lone Slann, the lore attribute and Steed of Shadows can keep your Slann away from their mobile units charge arcs. Pit of Shades is not very effective given their high I though.

    Heavens is okay if you are running with a skink priest or two. It’s probably not a good idea to give Heavens to a Slann or take Tet when playing HEs. HEs move around a lot, so Comet of Casandora is harder to strategically position. HE shooting shouldn’t be discounted, but Iceshard Blizzard isn’t as useful here as it has against more artillery heavy armies. Forcing re-rolls of 6s and 1s is good for mitigating their close combat mightiness of the HEs. The HEs have a lot of expensive units so the two lightning attacks can score some painful hits on their cavalry of their elite infantry (especially white lions which are hard to thin out with regular shooting). HE armies tend to have a lot of flyers so the lore attribute is worth keeping in mind.

    Like with fighting most armies Beast is a subpar choice unless you build your army around the Lore of Beasts specifically. About the only thing to distinguish Beasts in a LM/HE fight versus any other fight is Flock of Doom’s S2 attacks are more impressive against the HE’s low toughness and armor saves than against most other armies.

    Fire is a subpar choice versus HEs, it doesn’t lay damage down thick enough to justify forgoing another lore. Dragon Knights are all but fireproof. Most fighty characters will have the same armor and thus have the 2+ Ward save versus Fire.

    Lore of Metal is probably the weakest choice of all against this army. The HEs only have two units with high AS and one of them gets a 2+ Ward save versus flaming attacks. A 5+ Scaly Skin won’t help your skinks much versus even Core elves. The combat buff is nice and you always have the option of permanently rusting the 5+ AS of various HE units to 6+ so your Saurus can kill them easier, but you are probably still better off with any other lore.

    Old Bloods and Scar Veterans: If you want your Saurus Characters to wail on rank and file, this is a rare case where two hand weapons is probably a better option than great weapons. Rank and file elves are pretty easy to wound and aren’t typically well armored and Saurus characters inflict S5 hits without any boosts. A Carnosaur is probably overkill against rank and file elves, but they are fantastic for chewing up monstrous mounts of enemy characters. The HEs have a lot of dragon options and other monstrous mounts options, but that doesn’t mean HE players use them every game. Most of their special mounts fly, so a HE player who is half-awake can avoid letting the Carnosaur reach them most of the time.

    I haven’t seen a lot of LM vs. HE character duels. What few I have seen are tilted towards whichever side spent more points on their character. I like magical items that boost WS of Saurus characters or grant ASF for fighting HEs to counter the HEs advantages. Most HE fighty characters take great swords so you need to be expecting S6 hits if you are planning to duel their leaders. HEs have so many magic item options their builds are hard to predict (apart from them taking great weapons most of the time).

    Skink Priest: Basically your standard cube/scroll caddy. There’s nothing HE specific to put here except that since the HEs lack cannons or equivalents an EOTG is less vulnerable than against most armies.

    Skink Chief: After one or two attempts with disastrous results, I haven’t tried a skink chief versus HE since. They can’t really last more than a round of combat versus anything north of HE Core. I don’t see what you could equip one with to justify the cost, outside a Southlands theme army built for fun over competitiveness. A Stegadon War Spear Chief is viable if you don’t mind the thought of him being slain off his mount in the first round of combat. I would recommend using a regular Stegadon to save points since you only need really S5 impact hits.

    Special Characters: HEs don’t really seem that vulnerable to lore of Heavens so you can leave Tet at home. HEs are likely to sprint at you so Tik’takto’s ambushing adds little. If you want to field a SC, I would recommend Kroak for good old fashion direct damage or Mazdamundi. The HE’s don’t have any really heavy artillery, so Maz is less of a liability than he would be against most armies.
     
  3. Eladimir
    Salamander

    Eladimir New Member

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    Excellent post and very detailed. Thanks alot. I read the Eagle Tactica, I highly recommend that to anyone and everyone for a greater understanding of strat in this game.
     
  4. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart New Member

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    Good read, well done!

    I'll add a couple of thoughts since I have been a HE general for a long time.

    Silver helms are a pretty useless option now given they take a reverred special slot and Dragon Princes are superior in every way, so they probably won't get seen much. Dragon Princes, while they did take a hit in 8th as with all heavy cavalry, are still a fantastic choice. As mentioned, the immunity to flames make them harder to bring down, but be careful against them or they will hurt you badly. Luckily with cold blooded, we have a fair chance of surviving their charge, and should win the war of attrition due to high toughness. It is worth noting that even when not charging, a unit of 8 (6 across with 2 behind) will dish out 15 s3 attacks going first and rerolling misses followed by 6 more s3 attacks from the horses. Saurus should be able to handle that, but many a time mine have managed to win long drawn out combats against large ranked units.

    Lion chariots are another choice that are very very hard hitting, but quite fragile. Try to bring them down with poison before they reach combat. Even without impact hits, that thing is dishing out 2 s6 attacks (rerolling misses) and 4 s5 attacks every turn which is pretty much the average output of most chariots on the charge. When it charges and adds d6 impact hits to that, it is capable of really swinging a combat against you.

    I actually find in 8th edition seaguard are a lot better than they used to be and are definitely worth taking. This is especially so against armies with not a lot of shooting like LM. I'll happily move my seaguard block up to 10" from your saurus then sit there shooting and wait for you to charge - with a lion chariot sitting nearby for a counter charge. You charge my unit of 24 seaguard, I stand and shoot with ~18 s3 shots, then I hit first in combat with 25 s3 attacks (rerolling misses again). Its all s3 but 43 is a LOT of attacks for anyone except heavily armoured tough troops. I also often put a noble with great weapon in seaguard units to provide an additional 3 s6 attacks, which is often an additional 3 kills.

    The way to avoid that happening is to make your long range more deadly than mine and force me to charge. Neutralise any bolt throwers, pick off a mage if you can, and have skinks and especially salamanders hanging around for fire support. That will make the elven general rush to the relative safety of combat!

    I don't use sword masters or white lions due to their fragility, but my Phoenix Guard (along with Dragon Princes) are more often than not my most valuable unit. 4+ ward saves, s4, a noble in front for s6, ld 9 or 10 with a bsb nearby they really are a tough unit for elves that can also deal some decent damage. There isn't an easy counter for them aside from the usual buff/hex, just be wary of them and try to choose what they will be up against. A horde of cheap models will keep them busy for the game, or a tough and hard hitting unit should eventually be able to bring them down.
     
  5. Ejpok
    Temple Guard

    Ejpok New Member

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    Hello,
    Just want ti add my 2 cents.

    "Death is an okay choice versus HEs. Purple Sun isn’t worth much given the high Initiative scores elves tend to have, but the Strength and Toughness based sniper spells are deadly. HE heroes like everything else, cost a lot of points so losing them hurts. Knocking their S and T on Elves further to skink levels is also nice as is dropping their Ld down a peg. If you aren’t into character sniping, Death is probably not for you." <- you forgot to add unless he has loremaster cloack archmage in a unit. Or a BSB with the banner that prevents all spells from casting on that unit.
    HE in my area usually play with 2x30 or 3x20 White lions, a Light Archmage, a Light mage and a Light BSB(he has the itiem that makes him a mage). No one takes RBT, come one 2 wounds?!:> Wl's shread almost all infantry they encouter with equal ease... Chosen of Tzeench are an exeption due to WS of 3+
    Overall thier current AB is just plaing boring becasue of the silly and weak core choices, and the whole army is based on special units..
     
  6. Phoenixphire
    Jungle Swarm

    Phoenixphire New Member

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    Not a huge deal, but worth noting if you;re taking a Skink Priest anyway.
    Heaven's Lore attribute doing D6 strength 4 hits along side the spell.
     
  7. Enginseer
    Skink

    Enginseer New Member

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    I disagree with some of your assessments with the high elf army and I'd like to point out some things to look out for that you may have overlooked.

    Source: I have been playing high elves for about 8 years.

    First of all: magic. Magic turns the high elf army from a highly competitive army into a monster. If you are playing against a high elf general worth his salt in a competitive environment (i.e. not just a friendly game with a mate) expect the lore of shadow - it's perfect for accentuating the high elves' strengths while minimising their weaknesses. I know you have access to a rulebook or army builder so I'm not going to waste my time recapping the spells for you, but there are three things you should be aware of in particular.

    1) The pit of shades makes up for the high elves' lack of template war machines and _will_ cause you to cry like a baby as you try to pass your initiative tests. (steggies, saurus, slann will all go down kicking and screaming)

    2) Occam's mindrazor is your worst nightmare. 205 points for 20 spearelves with full command and this spell will mean you will be dealing with 21 S 8 attacks at WS 4 with ASF and reroll to hit. The magic phase in the current edition is designed to favour the person whose turn it is, and so expect the high elf player to put everything they can into making sure this spell can go off. Things you can do: A slann with the becalming cogitation is probably mandatory in higher points games. Should this be too pricey, I would highly recommend a lvl 1 skink priest with the diadem of power.

    3) Normal mage hunting is not as easy due to the lore of shadow attribute. The high elf general will easily just swap the mage out for a fighty character.


    Characters; High elf characters are almost always going to be equipped with a great weapon. They're 8 points for + 2S ASF. It really is the most effective option. You may come across someone that takes one of two of our magic bows (either 3x S5 shots or acts as a bolt thrower). This is all the variety you can expect from character loadouts. I would be more worried about items like the battle banner (+d6 combat resolution), or even the foliath's robes (ethereal)

    Also, because T3 is not a good place to be, you will only see a high elf price if he's riding a dragon. Otherwise again he's not worth it.

    You should be aware that unit champions of elite units can take up to 25 points of magic items. Be particularly careful of suicidal bladelords. These swordmaster unit champions can take an item which allows them to reroll to hit, reroll to wound, and have you reroll successful armour and ward saves. Afterwards they die. Coupled with 3 x S5 KB attacks means they can really ruin your slanns or oldbloods day.

    Also - eagles are the high elves' best friends. If you opponent has them he probably knows what he's doing.

    Now that I've betrayed my kind by divulging this information I think I may paint some of my spears as penance.
     
  8. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    I'd like to point out that two can play that game. All the comments about HE+Shadow Magic can almost be copy+pasted for our army.

    Not to mention the deadly "The Withering on a nice spendy unit >--followed by--> Steed of Shadows on a pack of Salamanders that seemed to be out of range" combo. It's like, "Right hook, left hook, uppercut, FINISH HIM"

    Oooh baby. Makes me giggle just thinking about all the blazing screaming girly elves and their blackened armor.
     
  9. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

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    I will have to try that.
     
  10. Moniker
    Kroxigor

    Moniker Member

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    From the BRB: 'Steed of Shadows is an augment spell that can be cast on the Wizard or a friendly character within 12'
     
  11. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    Uh oh... Looks like I have some apologizing to do... :rolleyes:
     
  12. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

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    Doh! I was hoping it said model, not character. Good try though.
     
  13. Ejpok
    Temple Guard

    Ejpok New Member

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    Hello,
    I just wanted to Add that Lore of Light, is getting pupular and pupular in my region....
    thats because of Phas protection, and the all mighty Banishment! The main High elf strike forece are White Lions, not Swordmasters. There are 2 reasons for this. Thie first is ofcourfe the 3+ save vs shooting, and the other, is the Str6. It is better than2 attacks with str 5 and a highie WS. But the main problem with HE is that they have insane magic items, spell destroyers, banners of Sorc, etc. Thier main disadvange is that they suck at core units:) But when you face a 60WL army accompanied by 3 Wizards with Light magic, that are in a unit than can't be targeted by spells It starts to get nasty, I try to sucide a Kowboy in the unit touchg the mage and hopig that 3 WL attacks won't kill it. But, here in Poland not many people use champions, but thats another story.
     
  14. Dog On Todd
    Kroxigor

    Dog On Todd Member

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    A few of my thoughts:

    I actually found skinks spectacular against HE.

    Throwing sticks at Sword Masters was phenomenal. You're 50 points pays for itself with 4 6's.

    Also, Skinks go down just as easily against HE special troops as your Saurus do.

    The way I fight them is ALWAYS use terradons. Always, always, always!

    Either bait and flee to keep their good units from moving forward much, or fly over those 10 swordmasters or prince horsies and drop some rocks then throw sticks.

    Every time I've played highelves, by the time they engage my large cohort blocks that throw at least 20 sticks first (as well as sally and terradon fire) I'm staring at 4 White Lions/Sword masters to my 20 skinks.

    Don't get me wrong, the skinks die in droves. But they always win!

    Saurus should still be taken and placed near archers though.

    (this was a horrible ramble due to lack of sleep).

    Summary:

    Terradons. Can't get enough!

    DO take Skinks.

    Saurus are cool, but I like Skinks more
     
  15. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

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    I must say that the one most common HE tactic that i see in competitive play is not addressed here at all.

    That would be a Arcemage with the book that made every double irresistible force, inside of a unit of lions which makes him stubbern and with 2 heros in the front rank which forced the mage into the back rank. and to top it all off with the magic standerd that makes no magic able to effect the unit.

    HOW DO YOU KILL THIS!!!!! its like the slann bunker just 10x better because no magic can touch it.
     
  16. Ferocious
    Temple Guard

    Ferocious New Member

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    charge it with 3 stegadons at the same time! xD
     
  17. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

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    they have S6 attacks that rerole misses. that will rip stegs apart.
     
  18. Ferocious
    Temple Guard

    Ferocious New Member

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    usually salamanders do the trick against white lions =)
     
  19. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    Skrox and Sallies are the best way to take down almost any elite units.
     
  20. ZaGreekie
    Chameleon Skink

    ZaGreekie Active Member

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    maybe i just have seen this combo to much but i think it is heavly being underestimated.

    with M5 they are not in shooting range for long.

    they rerole hits and are S6 so they rip threw everything we have in 2's

    and they are stubern meaning they can outlast anything we have (exept temple guard BUT they rip threw temple guard like butter.

    and i have easly seen a block of lions do 12 wonds per round of combat. a Skrox unit will not last more then 2 turns to that.

    Salimanders are good vs them but as a ELF player they shit there paints when they see salamanders and have there flanks well coverd. so only place you could get a shoot off is strate forwords at them honestly and that means next turn you are charged.
     

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