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AoS How to Protect Characters?

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Iskander, Jul 4, 2015.

  1. Iskander
    Chameleon Skink

    Iskander Active Member

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    Characters can't join units in this system. (From Page 1: A unit can have one or more models, but cannot include models that use different warscrolls.)

    However, I don't see anything resembling a "Look Out Sir!" Even the Temple Guard just get buffs to themselves.

    So, other than breaking LOS, how do you protect them from cannon fire, ranged attacks, magic, or so on?
     
  2. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    I suppose you don't? Stay away from ranged fire. I suppose with characters now having more wounds they don't die quite in the same way.
     
  3. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    It's really not much for us to get our characters to 2+ saves, and I'm sure that there's something available for re-rolling 1's while saving.

    Looks like artillery no longer denies saves - in fact, mortal wounds are a precious commodity.
     
  4. Iskander
    Chameleon Skink

    Iskander Active Member

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    ...it's five out of every six shots redirected, so, yes, that's a lot :)

    Also, the Empire Great Cannon has a rend of -2, which won't eliminate every save, but it will frustrate most, and ward saves don't exist anymore, so that safety valve is gone. This particular cannon does D6 wounds too. So, absent any balance rules I see no reason to not take four or more empire cannons every game, for every player.

    But you do make a good point about the re-rolls. That can help a lot.
     
  5. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    Crewmembers can be targeted now, they can only be taken in groups of 3 per artillery piece, and they are incredibly weak (aside from the cover they receive from their big gunz).

    No crew, no cannon. Terradons will absolutely devastate warmachines/stationary... especially as part of a Skink Patrol!
     
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  6. Avak786
    Saurus

    Avak786 Active Member

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    YES! On the antithesis to protecting characters, put ripperdactyls in this and watch them shred an unguarded character on the turn they arrive!
     
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  7. Iskander
    Chameleon Skink

    Iskander Active Member

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    This is quite plausible. Unfortunately, this anticipates exactly the kind of unbridled arms race that the lack of balancing systems causes. I can't take four skink patrols to counter your four cannons. The rules permit this, but my wallet (and patience, perhaps also my outmoded sense of pride) does not.

    ...though I guess nothing is stopping me anymore from taking four cannons myself... In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war machines ^_^
     
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  8. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    The tactics are there, man... a summoned Arkadon (easy) will devastate a group of warmachines. If they're not clustered, there's a tactic for that, too.

    Given the Bastiladon's abilities, even a non-summoned one can make cake of warmachines.

    Again, it does seem pretty well-balanced.
     
  9. Iskander
    Chameleon Skink

    Iskander Active Member

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    I assume Arkadon = Bastiladon? Sorry, that one's new to me.

    Anyway, your tactic is plausible. A Slann, assuming its player got to go first, so it's not slain immediately by cannonfire, and assuming the battlefield was small enough, could indeed summon an Arkadon within range of a cannon and then, assuming it rolled well, destroy it right away. (I'm not sure if you use the Cannon's save or the Crew's save, since the Cannon warscroll expressly makes the crew part of the unit? But if that was true, why would they have different Saves? Also, why would you ever target the Cannon, since they're so much tougher? Can crew move between cannons? The cannon rules talk about "its crew," not "any crew..." Ugh. Topic for another thread :p )

    Unfortunately, the remaining cannons, with two shots each at full strength, probably still destroy the Slann. The Arkadon probably lives though, which is genuinely interesting, though I'd expect it to die on the next turn.

    I suppose after that, nothing stops me from taking five Slann, and summoning five Arkadons. But then, we're back in the arms race.

    Anyway, thank you for demonstrating that there are ways I hadn't thought of to protect heroes - aggressive offense, creative summoning, forward-thinking army selection, and so on. That'll give me some things to think about down the line :)
     
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  10. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    Just trying to bring Balance to the Force. ;D
     
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  11. elzettako
    Jungle Swarm

    elzettako New Member

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    there is precious little about any sort of army structure
     
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  12. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    But the Light side ruled for centuries with the Jedi dominant. Balance requires evil to win for a long time.
     
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  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Too bad AoS is the JarJar Binks of the wargaming world. Messa play any models I want!
     
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  14. hdctambien
    Terradon

    hdctambien Active Member

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    Does the Temple Guard rule stack?

    Sworn Guardians: Temple Guard were created to protect their masters. If this unit is within 8" of any Seraphon Heroes, add 2 to its Bravery and 1 to the result of any save rolls for it.

    Lord Kroak is a Saraphon Hero. If you have Kroak next to several units of Temple Guard can you give him a Bravery of 14, 16, 18, 20? Or heck, it would only take 3 units to give him a 1+ save!

    Maybe start the game with Kroak + Eternity Warden + Oxyotl and try for sudden death (opponent needs to drop at least 4 models) ... choose Seize Ground for a short game or Endure for a long game and immediately disappear Oxyotl and have Kroax keep summoning Temple Guard + Comet + Deliverance until round 4 when you use your rerolls from Kroak to try to get second turn and then Oxyotl returns to the board within 3" of the terrain piece he needs to be in.

    Additionally, you can have (how many skinks do you own)/5 units of Chameleon Skinks "in reserve" so they don't count against your starting models but can ambush as needed to clear enough space for Oxyotl to appear near the terrain (he'd need about a 3" radius somewhere near the terrain) and to make sure you don't get tabled.

    It would take a LOT to kill Kroak so you shouldn't get tabled. If you don't get Sudden Death then you're not up against a very large force and it'll probably ocme down to a summoning game to dynamically build your army on the fly. And with only 3 models you shouldn't give up a Sudden Death to your opponent.

    Probably not a super fun army to play or play against. And probably the Temple Guard ability isn't supposed to stack, but GW had pretty good "this ability doesn't stack" wording in the 8th edition books... not sure why they wouldn't have said something like "if a Seraphon Hero is within 8" of a model with the Sworn Guardians ability then it gets +2 Bravery and +1 armor save" if they didn't want the ability to stack...
     
  15. Iskander
    Chameleon Skink

    Iskander Active Member

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    The Temple Guard rules are ambiguously written, but I read them as adding to the stats of the Temple Guard, not of the Heroes.
     
  16. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    Seems they don't stack... same deal as the Solar Engine thing of 8th.
     
  17. spawning of Bob
    Skar-Veteran

    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    It's poorly worded but not completely ambiguous. The TG get the buff. (Poor wording, you are back! How we missed you!)

    In the second sentence This unit (singular) is the subject of the first phrase. "within 8" of ant Seraphon hero" is an adjectival phrase about that subject. (you can switch it with any adjective and it still makes sense: If this unit is cuddlesome, add 2 to its Bravery and 1 to the result of any save rolls for it. Well it sort of makes sense.

    The adjectival phrase refers to heroes (plural). After the comma, the sentence say its (singular) and it (singular) about the subject. If the sentence had read any Seraphon hero that would have made the sentence ambiguous. I also looked at the gender of all Seraphon heroes - if they were all male that would weigh against "it" and "its" referring to the hero rather than the unit. Turns out that LM are gender confused.

    Fun fact - named characters in the LM scrolls are referred to as "he" generic slann, skink priests, old bloods etc are all referred to as "it". For another race that doesn't reproduce sexually, all generic orcs and goblins are "he". Daemonettes of Slaanesh are all "it" - the writer didn't take a close look at those models.

    Back to cannons. Put a unit in front of the Slann and hope that they FAQ the weak-ass line of sight rules very soon. (7th edition slann used to bob up and down behind his TG - he would only poke his head up to cast spells - this was conceptual LoS rather than 8th's qualified true LoS (No, you may not shoot at my feathers, weirdo.)
     
  18. hdctambien
    Terradon

    hdctambien Active Member

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    Thanks Bob! Also, thanks English Language, that's why we can't have nice things!
     
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  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Don't hate the language... hate the GW!
     
  20. Korhedron
    Saurus

    Korhedron Member

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    Bob, you are awesome. That is all.
     

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