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8th Ed. Lets talk Ripperdactyls

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Pinktaco, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    I want to use these awesome models, but how? I've only fielded them a couple of times and they usually just die. Then I took another good look at them and was sort of "WTF am I supposed to do with them?!".

    Several times now I've seen people saying "just use them in a larger quantity". Fair enough, but how many and for what reason exactly? - I personally don't want to field these for warmachine hunting because in all fairness we got plenty for that already.

    Is it the killing-blow? I mean, if these guys doesn't deliver they'll probably die soon after (low initiative, WS, T and AS).

    So I figured I'd try to run som math on them. Now, I'm not that good at math, I never have been, so maybe my numbers are wrong, but here goes:

    @4 models wide, attacking the toad target, they deliver:

    2 attacks each = 8 attacks.
    D3+1 = average 1.5 + 1 (?)

    So that'll be average on 18 attacks.

    Half of those will be gone in the To Hit phase (against most targets), followed by a re-roll of 8, which will be cut to half.
    So an average of 12 attacks will go through the To Hit phase.
    Of those 12 attack against T4 models 6 will cause wounds of which roughly 2 will be killing blows.

    So out of an average 18 attacks they'll generate 2 killing blows and another 4 regular wounds (which will modify armour by -2).

    Then we can add the spear wielding skinks.

    Again, my math might be wrong, so do feel free to correct it.

    The issue is, that I've seen people claim these can do some serious things to cavalry units, but with an average of 2 KBs I'm just not quite feeling it. Am I wrong about this?

    8 of these will cost 320pts. Can these really last long enough to do what we except them to?

    Obviously if an Empire player decided to go with GW IC Knights they'll have a field day (AS of 2+ with a -2 modifier from the ripper and -1 modifier from 8 skinks + we'll strike first). But what about chaos knights with ensorcled swords, or whatever they're called. They come with T4, AS+1 and hit back with WS 5, I5, S5 2A.

    So uhm.. yeah.. I just need some clarification of what to expect from these guys, because I really want to field them and while I don't think that statistics is everything, I'd certainly like to know what my odds are, since I can have other warmachine hunting models and if I field them in larger units I can get either kroxigors or a stegadon.

    Oh right.. I forgot.. The ripperdactyls come with stomp. How does the various special rules work with that?
     
  2. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

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    In case my name didn't make it clear, I'm a ripperdactyl enthusiast.

    Let's look at 6 ripperdactyls going into the flanks of the following 3 enemies:

    - 50 Greatsword dwarves
    - 30 White lions
    - 12 Inner-Circle knights

    Only 4 get into combat, the other two are ablative wounds. I'll ignore the skinks for now, but note that 6 skink attacks will usually net you 6*(3/6)*(3/6)*(4/6)= 1 extra wound against most infantry.

    Against greatsword dwarves (600 points of dwarves vs. 240 points of rippers):
    Code:
    Attacks each = 2 + (1+3)/2 + 1 = 5 on average
    Attacks total = 5 * 4 = 20
    Hits = 20*(3/6) + (20 - 20*(3/6))*(3/6) = 15 hits
    Wounds = 15*(3/6) = 7.5
    Stomps = 4*(3/6) = 2
    Total = 9.5 wounds
    
    Dwarves do 5*(4/6)*(5/6) = 2.77 wounds in return.  Even with ranks and banner, Rippers win by a million.
    Against white lions (450 points of elves vs 240 points of rippers):
    Code:
    White lions do 5*(4/6)*(5/6) = 2.77 wounds.
    
    Attacks back = 2 + (1+3)/2 + 1 = 5 on average
    Attacks total = 5 * 4 = 20
    Hits = 20*(3/6) + (20 - 20*(3/6))*(3/6) = 15 hits
    Wounds = 15 * (4/6) = 10
    Stomps = 4*(4/6) = 2.66
    Total = 12.66 wounds
    
    White lions are devastated.  Even with ranks and banner, Rippers win by a million.
    Against inner-circle knights (330 points of knights vs. 240 points of rippers):
    Code:
    Knights do 2*(4/6)*(4/6)*(4/6) = 0.59 wounds
    Horses do 2*(3/6)*(3/6)*(3/6) = 0.25 wounds
    
    Attacks back = 2 + (1+3)/2 + 1 = 5 on average
    Attacks total = 5 * 4 = 20
    Hits = 20*(3/6) + (20 - 20*(3/6))*(3/6) = 15 hits
    Killing Blow = 15*(1/6) = 2.5
    Other Wounds = 15*(3/6)*(1/3) = 2.5
    Total = 5 wounds
    
    Almost half the knights are dead.  Rippers win by a million.
    Against infantry, as long as you can prevent the unit from turning to face, the ripperdactyls will tear through them like a hot knife through butter. Against knights, the numbers are smaller, but the ratios are basically the same.
     
  3. Sleboda
    Troglodon

    Sleboda Active Member

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    Well, I've already learned something. I was all set to question you guys on why you were getting Stomp attacks with Flying Cavalry.

    Then I read the book.

    I see that they are Monstrous Cavalry with the Flying Cavalry Special Rule.

    Nice!


    EDIT: Also, thanks to RipperDerek for showing just how critical it is to get a flank attack with this unit. It really changes the numbers compared to a frontal assault.
     
  4. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

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    Yes - DO NOT send them in the front. They will all die before they do anything!
     
  5. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Right, thanks for your superior math :D

    Do you ever field 2 x 6 units?

    *EDIT*

    Against an Empire player a high magic slann could do quite well. Buff the WS and initiative of the rippers (so they hopefully can be boosted to 5). This will make all our models hit before and have an easier time getting the hits through. Since we assume WE get the charge off our skinks will also be hitting at S4. It's not much, but if they have their WS boosted and are attacking AS5+ units they can still do something.

    Against elf it'll be pointless to buff our WS and Initiative. The Dwarf hammer unit comes with WS5 and ASL.
     
  6. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

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    My style is maybe different from what other people would advise. However, I usually run one small block (3-4) and one larger block (6-8). The small block goes after warmachines and chaff, while the bigger block goes after whatever target seems juiciest.
     
  7. Ondjage
    Razordon

    Ondjage Member

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    Damn derek, thats a lot of rippers! Sounds like fun :D
     
  8. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

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    Two units of 3 to 4, or a unit and a hero on a ripper, hitting both flanks, murders the unit.
    If you're fighting to more than one side, you cannot turn to face.

    -Matt
     
  9. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    How come that this is ALWAYS the answer to squishy units?

    "Put it in the flank?"

    for the price of 4 rippers you could almost just get a steg who also punches in the front :p
    (that said I understand the difference and is experimenting with ripper lists myself)
     
  10. rantapanda
    Kroxigor

    rantapanda Member

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    haha indeed.

    also how do you guys manage to circumvent the rippers to the flanks? with the frenzy they seem to have good chances to charge into units that are facing them, unless theres a general or bsb around.

    how well do u feel this strat works. id love to try this mass ripper style :D
    i saw a youtube replay with death slann, tetto and loads of skinks and rippers. liz player lost but it looked awesome.
    some of the charges went into fronts of units so :(
    maybe use it against armies that dont have that many unit blocks? and those who have a bit more blocks, tie a couple with scarvets/ob and flank.. or just surround everything with rippers and hope they dont get demolished with magic or shooting :D, hope they pass charge tests and then charge over everything into rear of units?

    tl;dr ripperderek how do u use these guys really :D ?
     
  11. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Difference being that on the charge the steg will get D6+1 impact hit along with 5 S3 attacks from skinks, 3 S6 from itself and a thunderstomp on D6. A maximum of 16 attacks from the beast and 5 from the crew for a total of 21. After the charge that will be a maximum of 9 S6 + 5 S3.

    The rippers will be able to make a maximum 24 S4, rerollable, armour piercing, killing blow attacks + an additional 6 S4 attacks (S3 after the charge). With 6 rippers they'll continue to make this amount of attacks for some time while the steg loses the impact hit after first round and is relying on the thunderstomp to do the heavy lifting.

    The rippers come with more wounds and more attacks for nearly the same points. Obviously the rippers can roll something ridiculous when rolling for their D3+1 frenzy attack, but so can the steg with its impact hit/thunderstomp.

    The good thing about rippers is that they're M10, with the drawback of frenzy and low Ld. You can reform them for free so that they're looking away from your opponent, but then they wouldn't be able to charge in the following round. At least they aren't as big cannon magnets as the steg is.

    Ultimately I think it's a matter of preference. Personally I'll try the rippers out because I think they could be a fun addition to the army, if used correct. The steg is fun too, but almost always comes along when I play so I wouldn't mind giving it a little less attention if this opens up for a new playstyle :)
     
  12. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    oh I agree, its just that it seems that "put it in the flank" seems to be the golden answer to anything in warhammer these days :p

    that advice usually comes across like a slick semi-condescending tv-show host with a smirk smile:

    Cavalry losing combat?
    Put it in the flank!

    Your monster dies too quick in combat?
    well kiddo, thats cause you didnt "PUT IT! IN THE FLANK" *pointing with two fingers to the camera still wearing his disturbing smile with far to white teeth*

    Cant beat that elite infantry? take your own and DO WHAT WITH IT PEOPLE? *hand to his ear*
    *Audience goes*: PUT! IT IN! THE FLANK! *while the words appear as graphic on screen*


    In todays episode of "Put it in the flank"
    our contestant Pink-ta-co (he deliberately refuses to pronounce your name properly!)
    has to figure out how to make his Skink Cheif on a rip-pah-dact-yl win combat against a kay-OZ Blo-hot-thir-hir-stir!
    *theme musik and applause*
     
  13. hdctambien
    Terradon

    hdctambien Active Member

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    Can anyone else hear a new Beyonce hit single "To the Flank, to the Flank. Everything you own in a rank to the flank!"
     
  14. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

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    Getting fliers in the flank or rear of a unit is much easier than getting a Stegadon or your COR there. Not only do they move much farther, they can make vanguard moves, and they can fly over units to get access to their rears. Depending on what's defending the flank, they can also annhilate chaff and then overrun into the flank more easily due to longer charge range and swiftstride. Also, there are tons of units that the COR and Stegadon will lose combat and break against, even if you do get a flank (dwarves, white lions, executioners...). Whereas, the rippers will destroy the whole unit almost single-handedly.

    That said, the general strategy is to tarpit the target unit with something hard to kill, like a Stegadon or a defensively kitted cowboy or a large steadfast block of infantry, and then send in the rippers to murder the unit once it's been parked.
     
  15. Eladimir
    Salamander

    Eladimir New Member

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    My issues so far have been the init of the rippers. With a unit of only 3 you have to strike first to have any chance of damage. And at init 3 there are many things that go before you neutralizing them before they can strike. I like them as warmachine hunters because of the immune to panic but gotta be careful on the frenzy.

    Needs more play testing and I should proxy a bigger unit and try that before shelling out for more.
     
  16. hdctambien
    Terradon

    hdctambien Active Member

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    I haven't had much success with 3 Rippers for all the reasons you listed. Also, if my opponent has any shooting at all he can whittle down those 3 rippers to just 1 or 2 before they get into any sort of combat at all.

    I'm thinking I need to run 5 or 6 of them just to have 2 or 3 rippers left alive to fight when they finally get into combat and get a change to strike.
     
  17. Prof
    Saurus

    Prof Member

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    Right - get a new thread going and we'll write that no1 hit in a jiffy!
     
  18. Professor_Skink
    Skink

    Professor_Skink New Member

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    Hey Long time follower, first time poster, and it's interesting you say that the rippers die so easily. I mean yeah toughness 3 sucks but they have a 4+ armor. In the games I've played with them that AS saves them alot more than 5+ AS terradons. What would you say to stay away from to make sure they don't die?
     
  19. Khornefed
    Skink

    Khornefed Member

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    Stay away from WoC Warriors for one, esp halberdiers. You wont like their chariots either.

    Really, any multi-attack St5+ opponent with higher init is going to be murder on ya. You might bloody your opponent, but you are not going to have much left.
     
  20. Professor_Skink
    Skink

    Professor_Skink New Member

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    I cringe at the thought of Str. 5 at my rippers... But say you were running rippers in a list against chaos, what would you send them against to be the most effective?
     

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