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8th Ed. Let's Talk Skink Armies

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Ronisman, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. Ronisman
    Saurus

    Ronisman New Member

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    I know you all have seen multiple threads on skink lists, but I started this one because after searching the vast jungles of the internet I have yet unanswered skink quandries.

    The idea here is to make a list as competitive as possible whilst applying the no saurus limitation (I am thinking no slann as well, but I might get flamed on here for that lol.) This will provide a great themed army that is good enough to play close games with the locals. I feel like I'll have more fun with this than if I made a cut-throat tournament lizard army and just stomped all the people around here in our friendly games (most of them won't have nearly the most competitive builds for their respective armies).

    Down to the issues:

    Rare slots will be salamanders. I'm pretty confident in this pick.

    Specials will be chameleons. I feel like terradons are totally unneeded given all the chameleons.

    Here's where I am much less certain. I cannot decide on stegadons. Some people swear by them, and some people say they're only good for getting killed by war machines and ranged attacks.
    Do you think they are more needed in a skink list than a normal one? Even less needed?
    Can I go without EOTG?

    Here's another one: kroxigors. This is another unit people seem to either love or hate. My line of reasoning is that in the absence of saurus, you must take one or two skrox blocks (depending on points) in order to fill the role of a saurus regiment as best they can. I have seen it countless places that these are flanking units.

    In a skink army, can they fill the role of the main line?
    Should I forego skrox and literally take like a million units of skirmishers and just try to never get into close combat?
    Should I forego skrox and use stegadons instead as a saurus replacement?

    I sincerely appreciate any advice you knowledgeable and experienced forum members can provide!
     
  2. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Well variety is usualy better than spaming one unit.

    you could substiture some of our skink special characters for a Slann,
    or maybe just a Skink priest on the EotG.
     
  3. Lord Tsunami
    Salamander

    Lord Tsunami Member

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    i get the feel that you are still thinking in terms of the old army selection process. you say "special units will be chameleons", but even in a 1000p battle you could bring 500 points (could, not should ;)) of chameleons. Same for salamanders. in a normal battle you are only allowed to bring no more than 6 salamanders (2 units of 3) but that only costs 450 points, and in the standard 2400p battle you could bring another 150p worth of rare units (2 razordons for example). again i say COULD and not should.

    moving on, if you are a reasonably competent general and face normal "all comers" lists you could potentially avoid getting too humiliated with armies consisting of Skrox, skink skirmishers, chameleons, teradons, salamanders and either stegadons or kroxigors for some punch.

    it will not be easy though, and you will run in to difficulties since you will not have the combat punch from TG or saurus characters. Skrox are not awful, but they die in droves, and since you cant bring a slann (and are thus stuck with heavens lore) you will have fairly mediocre buffs for them too. also, you will have a MUCH worse magic phase in general since you are limited to lvl 2 mages and dont get the extra power dice.

    in small battles of 1000p or so, you could probably do well, since you cant really bring huge characters there. also the board is usually open enough for you to escape the enemy for a long time and whittle it down with skink fire. in a more standard 2400p battle though you will have trouble staying away from the enemy, and you will most likely have to face them straight on sooner or later. that is rarely a pretty sight. you will be inferior in magic and combat, and probably not too superior in fire power (though 6 sallies are NASTY). You will be fast, but it will be hard to exploit that to its fullest. to top it off you will have horrible leadership. you could get it up to 9 by combining stegadon helmet with the Ld banner, but that would cost you two characters and they will both have to be in the same unit, so the bubble will be small, and you want to be mobile.

    it is always fun to try, but dont be surprised if it doenst work.
     
  4. Ronisman
    Saurus

    Ronisman New Member

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    Thanks for the replies so far! Fortunately, a lot of my games in the near future will be lowish in points where hopefully the weaknesses of skinks won't be too woefully highlighted.

    I'm actually not too worried about leadership (although I can't argue I wish it were higher). With cold-blooded you've got about an 80% chance to pass leadership without re-rolls. A "normal" army with let's say a leadership 9 general only has an 83% chance. Not too bad. Cold-blooded rocks :p
     
  5. Taipan
    Temple Guard

    Taipan Member

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    If they snipe your Scar-Vet or Chief BSB however, you revert to Ld6, which even with Cold-Blooded is not very reliable.

    You're going to be fighting a pretty uphill battle sadly. You give up two out of three advantages of Lizardmen (solid combat troops, amazing mages) for the dubious benefits of lots of Skinks. If anything I'd Steg spam (1-2 EOTG, 2-3 Stegs in Special), then fill out your army with Skrox and blowpipes (and of course Salamanders).

    EOTG is a pretty no brainer choice. It's your only reason answer to heavily armoured enemies outside of Skrox, and the 5+ ward on your giant Skink units will make them last a lot longer.
     
  6. vapor
    Razordon

    vapor New Member

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    All-Skink forces in low points games are actually pretty solid. I don't even add a unit of Saurus until 1k. The trick to winning with them is to use your speed to pick your fights with units that have been softened up by skirmishers, Chameleons, and sallies.

    500:
    Skink Priest
    Lvl 2

    Skrox
    22 Skinks
    2 Kroxigor
    FC

    11 Skink Skirmishers

    1 Salamander
    extra handler


    750:

    Skink Priest
    Lvl 2
    Plaque of Tepok

    Skrox
    22 Skinks
    2 Kroxigor
    FC

    11 Skink Skirmishers

    11 Skink Skirmishers

    7 Chameleon Skinks

    1 Salamander
    extra handler

    1 Salamander
    extra handler
     
  7. Lord Tsunami
    Salamander

    Lord Tsunami Member

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    yes, you have an almost 90% chance of making a Ld test on Ld6 with coldblooded and reroll, but when you start losing combat (and if you are not steadfast) it goes down very quickly. on -1 you have a 72% chance of staying and on -2 you have a 59% chance. if you had started on Ld 8, you would have a 90% chance to stay on -2.

    But, its great that you are going for a smaller point game, that makes things a lot easier.

    It is very possible that you cant afford an EotG in a smaller game due to %heroes. You will need something to tackle armour, and that means stegadon or kroxigors. i would surely bring a stegadon just for teh heck of it, but probably some Skrox too. however, id stick to a lot of fast units so you can control the movement of his main force, and then smash in with stegadon + Skrox at the same time in a suitable target. kill one expensive unit and all his small fast units and he will have a very hard time to catch up.

    btw, for teh sake of teh discussion it may be of use to know exactly what point size we are talking. there is a huge difference between 500, 1000 and 2000 points.
     
  8. Ronisman
    Saurus

    Ronisman New Member

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    Hmm, yes you're right. I will have to take great care with skrox units to maximise their combat res and try to keep my ranks higher than the enemy.

    Points wise we are doing a relatively slow escalation so for a while it will all be 500 - 1000 tops.

    I'm beginning to think I should relegate the skinks list to 1000 and below now (which some people do anyway I think). I am still undecided though, as I do like themed armies and personally I think the skink models look way cooler than the saurus (not counting temple guard which are awesome!).
     
  9. Bush_Craft
    Skink

    Bush_Craft New Member

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    Skink lists are totally viable at high point levels, my man. I had an experience with this lately, and I've been meaning to post about it. So, here goes way more than the obligatory two cents!

    I am by no means the world's greatest WHFB general. It's mostly 40K players in my town, so I usually travel to get to a few tourneys a year and that's my main experience. I'm much more of a painter than a player. That said, I took a skink-heavy list to a GT and did surprisingly well. 4-1, for 6th place overall out of 36 guys. Two massacres, two major victories, and I baaaaaarely lost by a massacre to the #1 guy. In my defense he was a competitive tourney player from Great Britain with a fearsome reputation, he was running the brand-new Ogre Kingdoms book that was full of...fun surprises..., we ran out of time as I was finally whooping on him at the end of the game, and it was EXACTLY 1001 points of difference! Damn...but full credit to him for his win! He ended up being really cool and we got tore up at the bar that night, where he admitted the skink list gave him fits he tried to hide from me. If anyone there had to hand me my ass and make me wear it as a hat, I'm glad it was him. [N810: You might know him, he plays out of Atlantis Comics in Norfolk. His name's "Owen" but it's spelled all crazy, with an "A" a few "E's" and "Y's" and I think there's a "Q" in there somewhere, too.] This isn't a highly streamlined competitive list of instant death, but if you really wanted that you wouldn't be running a skink themed army, right? Here goes:

    2500ish pts

    Characters 623/625 pts
    Skink Chief (General)
    -Light Armor, Shield
    -Magic Weapon: Dagger of Sotek
    -Enchanted Item: Blood Statuette of Spite
    Skink Chief (BSB)
    -Light Armor, Shield
    -Battle Standard Bearer
    -Magic Banner: Skavenpelt Banner

    Skink Priest Lvl 1
    -Engine of the Gods mount
    -Arcane Item: Dispel Scroll
    -Talisman: Dawnstone

    Core 890/+625 pts
    25 Saurus Warriors
    -Hand Weapon, Shield
    -Full Command
    25 Saurus Warriors
    -Hand Weapon, Shield
    -Full Command
    10 Skink Skirmishers
    -Blowpipes
    10 Skink Skirmishers
    -Blowpipes
    10 Skink Skirmishers
    -Blowpipes
    10 Skink Skirmishers
    -Blowpipes

    Special 465/625 pts
    5 Chameleon Skinks
    5 Chameleon Skinks
    5 Chameleon Skinks
    4 Terradons
    3 Kroxigors (165 pts)

    Rare 515/625 pts
    2 Salamanders
    -Extra handler
    1 Salamander
    -Extra Handler
    Ancient Stegadon


    This was, in the words of the Tournament Organizer, "The most unorthodox Lizardmen army ever." It's not fine-tuned, but it is viable, and it does lay a nasty hurt on the other guy. It made most people's heads explode seeing it deployed, and how it was played. The trick is to think of them as wood elves. Avoid combat, dance the skinks, and dance the stegs. No, really: Stegs have 12" march, 6" move and shoot, and can face any direction when moving (take a good, long look at the rules for "single models" on page 27 of the LRB, there's a lot of perks to them!). Dance them to the rear and flanks, shoot the blowpipes and blast the engine for a few turns. THEN go in for finishing charges. Bonus, they take attention away from the sallies who are your REAL heavy hitters. The saurus were so-so at best, and got face-raped at their worst. Entirely my fault, they just shouldn't have been used like I did. Poor guys, they fed a lot of ogres for a LONG time... :depressed: The frenzy banner didn't help them that much (and YES it can be used on sauri, it can only be CARRIED by skinks. Restrictions on magic items are for who can have it, folks, not for who it works on. If a sword of killiness in the VC book said "Vampires Only" that doesn't mean it only hurts vampires, am I right?). The killing blow chief was a notion that didn't pan out well, he didn't fight much (naturally!). The trick to keeping the chief BSB banner alive is to reform your saurus units until they're wider than the opponent, keeping him out of combat (because, being on a 20mm base in the midst of 25mm, he has to be placed on the sides) and them frenzied. RAWR! GROWL!
    The most important thing of all is to run the terries and chamos at any warmachines and other suitable targets right from the start. Get RIGHT UP IN THEIR FACE and don't back off. The end result is a bunch of chamos and terries slapping their precious cannons around, skirmishers and stegs running every which way turning the sky black with blowpipes and blasting the Engine, and two blocks of frenziable saurus moving up for the kill (well, they were SUPPOSED to...LOL) while salamanders melt dozens of models a turn from safety. Priests shut down magic a wee bit and the odd comet or chain lightning on your turn doesn't hurt any. It's a maelstrom, and it's ugly. I wasn't kidding when I said people's heads were exploding. The real strength of this list is that it takes the initiative from the other general, forcing him to play your way, and if they have a hard time adapting from the "run your armies at each other and butt heads" strategies that most folks play then they reach for the aspirin by turn two.

    Cons: I didn't play a magic heavy list, but presumably this would not do too well against it. Skinks are notoriously susceptible to magic missiles (let's all pour a glass for fallen comrades now). I did school warriors of chaos, brettonians, a couple empire gunlines, and my *amazing* chamo skinks chased a Lord of Change all game and killed him off in turn 4 (among their other, many, Top Ten Highlights of the Tourney moments). Oh, my precious camo skinks...I have them modelled with naturally camouflaged ghillie suits (kinda like modern snipers), wrapped around trees and climbing out of water. They became known as the "Delta Force Skinks" by the end of the weekend. :D

    If I had to do it all over again? I'd take this:

    2500ish pts

    Characters 625/625 pts
    Saurus Old Blood (General)
    -Mount: Carnosaur
    -Magic Weapon: Blade of Realities
    -Enchanted Item: Potion of Speed
    -Magic Armor: Charmed Shield
    -Talisman: Luckstone
    Skink Priest Level 1
    -Arcane Item: Dispel Scroll
    Skink Priest Level 1
    -Arcane Item: Diadem of Power


    Core 680/+625 pts
    24 Ranked Skinks w/ javelin and shield
    10 Skink Skirmishers w/ blowpipes #1
    10 Skink Skirmishers w/ blowpipes #2
    10 Skink Skirmishers w/ blowpipes #3
    10 Skink Skirmishers w/ blowpipes #4
    10 Skink Skirmishers w/ blowpipes #5
    10 Skink Skirmishers w/ blowpipes #6
    10 Skink Skirmishers w/ blowpipes #7
    10 Skink Skirmishers w/ blowpipes #8

    Special 600/625 pts
    10 Chameleon Skinks
    10 Chameleon Skinks
    10 Chameleon Skinks
    4 Terradons
    4 Terradons

    Rare 595/625 pts
    2 Salamanders
    -Two extra handlers
    2 Salamanders
    -Two extra handlers
    Ancient Stegadon w/ giant blowpipes

    I'd maybe tweak to get in a cube of darkness, and maybe swap the terries for a baby steg and some kroxies for the cohort, but overall I like it and look forward to bringing it to the next one!
     
  10. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Nicely done, I find the trick with skink armies is to concentrate your fire at a unit or two untill they are dead and then go to the next one. a hundred or so poison shots should take out most units.
    oh yea the heavens spell that lets you reroll 1's is great.

    Ps. if you have any extra point you might try a musician on the cohort unit.
     
  11. Bush_Craft
    Skink

    Bush_Craft New Member

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    Exactly right, take down unit after unit with shooting while denying combat and watch the veins on their neck pop :D

    Good call on the musician, the list is still a work in progress and I'm not sure if the cohort will be run as a long, thin "stand and shoot" wall or a horde with kroxies in it to be a target that draws in their close combat units into the kill zone.

    Doesn't re-roll ones only apply in CC? Damn I can't remember it's been a few months since I played... :(
     
  12. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

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    No, the re-roll ones is on shooting and CC. I have a question though, you said that the Ancient Stegadon can move 12 inches and shoot. I thought it could not do that. Have you seen that listed anywhere? The same rule applied to the baby steg with the bow. Move and shoot, not march and shoot.

    Just wondering.
     
  13. Bush_Craft
    Skink

    Bush_Craft New Member

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    I apologize, I meant "move and shoot" not "march and shoot". I will redact my previous post to improve its Truthiness ;)
     
  14. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

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    No worries. I just wanted to make sure I was playing that right. Plus, if I could get away with it, march and shoot on the Ancient Stegadon would rock!
     
  15. Lord Tsunami
    Salamander

    Lord Tsunami Member

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    just for the record, no it wont. 100 poisoned shots (hitting on 6s) will cause 16,67 wounds on average BEFORE saves. yes it will hurt most units, but if you shoot at normal infantry it should kill around 11 of them (not nearly the whole unit, and if you shoot at the incredibly nasty fully buffed tzeench warriors (3+/3+ saves) you will kill less than 2. i understand you didnt mean it literally that 100 shots is the exact number, but it is important to the discussion. a hundred shots can be acquired easily, but you would need around 300 to take down a normal core infantry unit, and 1500 to take down a chosenstar. that is a vast difference ;)

    @bushcraft
    its interesting that you have managed to do well with a skink(ish) list and it should serve to broaden all our views. however the first list you posted seems like a slightly skink heavy list with gimped characters. Lets face it, the two skink chiefs really has nothing on their saurus buddies. Putting the skavenpelt banner in a saurus unit IS indeed a utility that is nice, but it gainst you 5-6 extra WS 3 S4 attacks, thats it. thats basically as much punch as an almost naked scar vet, but for much higher points.

    Your (first) army is much more mobile than average, but it still has two sturdy combat blocks to fall back on. Usually we would have 3, so basically you traded the TG deathstar (and slann) for more skinks. Your second army on the other hand is very different. there we can talk about a "true" skink army, since you lack any real combat units (24 skinks does NOT count ;)). this army will be much harder to play i think, since you have nowhere to hide really. you stay away or you die. simple as that. it may be fin to try though :)

    I would take this moment to advocate some skinks with javelins. if you are taking 8 units, you may aswell take a few of them with javelins. they really excel against enemy fast units with low toughness and armoursave. they can move up to a unit of fast cavalry and do 50% more wounds than blowpipers if you have to both move and shoot at long range. also, they are guaranteed a stand and shoot reaction against fast cavalry, and that pretty much means that they wont dare charge you. blowpipers are better if they can ever manage to get in close range or not have to move to shoot, but that isnt always the case. it is a good idea to bring some of each, since they preform different jobs.

    oh, and another thing: you do not buy oldblood from the same allowance as skink priests. you have written " characters 625/625" but you can have 625 points of lords AND 625 points of heroes, so you could mount one of the priests on an EotG if you tweaked a bit :) this may or may not be a good idea, but it could help with heavily armoured foes.
     
  16. Bush_Craft
    Skink

    Bush_Craft New Member

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    Yep, those skink characters sucked pretty bad. I didn't run the math on the banner, and it really wasn't cost effective (or game effective LOL). It was just shiny and pretty and I wanted to play with it. The upside to him is that it's easy to keep him out of combat if you roll around with Sauri, and can bounce from unit to unit giving frenzy to whoever needs it the most, while moving his BSB bubble around as needed. Beyond that? Tits on a bull... :depressed: Swapping those for a nasty Carny Lord with BoR will be a step in the right direction.

    And, yes, I keep forgetting that heroes and lords are two different percentage pools now. YAY! Time to redo this list for the better. An EotG will come in handy, maybe with Iron Curse Rune, and I can get that Cube of Darkness, too!


    Skinks w/ javs is a good idea, I'll prob swap out 3 or so of those blowpipe "squads" (calling them "units" is giving them too much credit, methinks...)

    Anyways, liek I was saying it's not the greatest list in the world but it is fun, unusual, and if anyone wants to try running skinks it's a solid place to start. Your mileage may vary, I have a slightly off-the-wall play style and like to keep guys on their toes. Who says MSU is dead in 8th??? :bored:

    Question for all: The EotG can still use it's powers if it marches, right? The book only says howdah weapons can't, that the Engine replaces those, and the only restriction on the Engine powers being used is "If the Skink priest is alive..." So, any internet consensus or FAQ I missed?
     
  17. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    yea prety sure the priest can activate the engine if the steg marched.
     
  18. Ronisman
    Saurus

    Ronisman New Member

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    So do you like taking terradons in addition to chameleons? I was going to go straight camos in favor of terradons, because I view them as filling virtually the same niche. I may be simplifying them too much though.
     
  19. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Yea they are kinda similar in their roles, usualy I have my teries rush up and drop rocks on the enemies scouts and then shoot the nearest war machene from the rear and then charge it the next turn.
     
  20. Lord Tsunami
    Salamander

    Lord Tsunami Member

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    terradons can be vital to breaking a gunline in "castle" formation. the warmachines will have cover save from the chameleons, but terradons can just charge over the protective troops and go straight for the jugular :)
     

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