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AoS Lord Kroak's Great Summoning (2000 points) OP or not?

Discussion in 'Seraphon Army Lists' started by Oh_Man, May 30, 2019.

  1. Oh_Man
    Cold One

    Oh_Man Well-Known Member

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    Lord Kroak: 450 points (Leader 1 of 6)
    Saurus Astrolith Bearer: 160 points (Leader 2 of 6)
    Engine of the Gods: 220 points (Leader 3 of 6, Behemoth 1 of 3)
    Saurus Eternity Warden: 140 Points: (Leader 4 of 6) Artifact: Coronal Shield
    Skink Starpriest: 80 points (Leader 5 of 6)
    Skink Priest (Priestly Trappings): 80 points (Leader 6 of 6) Artifact: Light of Dracothion
    10 Saurus Guard: 180 points (Battleline 1 of 3)
    10 Saurus Guard: 180 points (Battleline 2 of 3)
    10 Saurus Guard: 180 points (Battleline 3 of 3)
    Chromantic Cogs: 60 points (endless spell)
    Geminids of Uhl-Gysh: 40 points (endless spell)
    Balewind Vortex: 40 points (endless spell)
    Prismatic Palisade: 30 points (endless spell)
    Eternal Starhost: 150 points (Battalion)
    Total: 1990

    Key Points
    • 19-22 Celestial Conjuration points per round (Lord Kroak + Balewind + Cogs + Astrolith Bearer).
    • Engine of the Gods summoning either 10 Saurus Warriors, 20 Skinks, 3 Terradons or 3 Ripperdactyls per round if I roll a 14-17 from 3 dice (1 dice can be rerolled).
    • Potentially a second Engine of the Gods could be summoned in round 1 if my Astrolith Bearer rolls a 3+.
    • Saurus Guard are at 2+ saves and rerolling failed save rolls due to Eternity Warden, Batallion and Celestial Rites from Skink Priest.
    • Saurus Guard Polearm damage increased from 1 to D3 if they do not move or charge, and attacks increased from 3 to 4 if near their Eternity Warden. Jaws do double damage if wound roll of 6+ (Skink Starpriest: Serpent Staff).
    • Palisade to block line of sight on Lord Kroak and Geminids for mortal wounds and debuffs.
    • Light of Dracothion to stop a critical source of mortal wounds (this build's greatest weakness?). Coronal Shield for debuff.
    Thoughts? My question is I have 6 terradon/rippers on sprue at the moment. Should I make terradons or rippers? Summoning from EoG I can get more benefit out of the once per battle boulders, and rippers from EoG can't have bloat toads, so i'm thinking terradons.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
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  2. GuaDan
    Temple Guard

    GuaDan Well-Known Member

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    I would skip the Eternal Starhost entirely, add as many EotGs as you can and stick to Skins as battleline.
    Rippers summoned on turn one allow for the placing of a bload toad.
     
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  3. Oh_Man
    Cold One

    Oh_Man Well-Known Member

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    Why is this?
    Only from the EotGs, not from regular summoning. Is the chance of that very high?
     
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  4. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    With more than a single EotG? Yes

    Listen, the list can be improved, especially cutting away things that don't really serve you.
    I'm not a fan of eternal starhosts and guards... but if you want to keep them, well, throw away the priest (no serious bites to be buffed), 5 guards and all the endless spells Geminids and Palisade. you will save enough points for a second EotG

    But what really bothers me, is Kroak itself.
    If you use him as summoning machine, you basically just gain 1 spell (3 CCPs / turn) over a basic Slann... for an additional cost of basically 200 pts!
     
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  5. Oh_Man
    Cold One

    Oh_Man Well-Known Member

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    So what is the problem with eternal starhost? Just that it takes up room for another EoTG? Problem is I don't have another EOTG at the moment is all so I gotta stick with one for now.
     
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  6. GuaDan
    Temple Guard

    GuaDan Well-Known Member

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    The Eternal Starhost does not have much value in current meta: too many armies hit hard and fast, with loads of mortal wounds. Guards and Warden are slow and tough but extremely prone to MW output.
     
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  7. ILKAIN
    Terradon

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    Right now the eternal Starhost is simply not worth the points. you'd get more out of a Sunclaw if you really want to use Saurus bodies. definitely drop the eternal and priest, freeing up 910 points.

    @Killer Angel he cant drop the Starpriest. while you are right the bites are not worth the buff, that's his only other caster and is needed for the endless spells, especially the turn one Chronomatic Cogs if he is intent on using the Kroak as a Conjuration battery.

    For that 910 points I would add in a second Starpriest (80 points), 6 rippers (280 pts) 40 skinks (pipes and shields; 240 points) 2 units of 10x skinks (120points) and take the shadowstrike battalion (170). that will bring you to 1980, and give you a lot of Early board coverage, Alpha strike protection and some deepstrike "pick an enemy unit and delete it" capability. You can also add in quicksilver swords for 20 points just in case you run into a Chaos opponent. (12d6 mortal on 5+ if chaos, only 6d6 if not; but its only 20 points so there's no real loss if you don't use them when you don't face chaos)

    I understand not having models for the "optimized" list, which is why I mostly tried to keep the changes to things you would most likely have (or already said you had ready for the EOTG). Im also not a fan of completely changing someone else's list to fit what I think it should do, which is why I mentioned the Sunclaw battalion if you wanna use Saurus bodies instead of skink. (I forget the points cost of the battalion but the sunblood is 120, and you can take a full 40 warriors with spears for 360, two units of 10 warriors with clubs for 100 each, and that leaves 230 free for the battalion and some skinks or razordons)

    good luck and happy summoning.

    I sincerely suggest having at least one unit of rippers on the board at the start of the game. this will guarantee at least one toad on the board for any rippers you summon after turn one with the EOTG. one thing to look at is the percentage of your army that is being invested into a certain strategy. the 910 points of the eternal + priest was a purely defensive and inflexible 40% of your army. Seraphon SURVIVE on flexibility. on mobility. one could argue we don't actually win games... we just lose them slower than our opponent does lol.
     
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  8. LizardWizard
    Skink Chief

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Here is how I run summon Kroak.
     
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  9. ILKAIN
    Terradon

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    I think his issue was he only has 1 EoTG.... your 4 are a bit out of feasibility for him lmao.
     
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  10. LizardWizard
    Skink Chief

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Opps, missed that bit. lol
     
  11. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    My bad.
    I wasn't talking about removing the Starpriest (which is needed to cast) but about the priest, that doesn't cast.
    But in my mind i mixed them, giving the serpent staff to the priest.
     
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  12. Oh_Man
    Cold One

    Oh_Man Well-Known Member

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    So ive got 3 terradons assembled atm. 2 bolas and 1 skyblade.

    6 more on sprue. Based on wat I'm reading I should assemble all 6 as rippers?
     
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  13. Ray Richards
    Skink

    Ray Richards New Member

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    I'd do 6 rippers. They hit harder especially if your by a bloat frog. They can be used more often than the terradons.
     
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  14. ILKAIN
    Terradon

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    RIPPERS ALL DAY LONG. Terradons have their place, and in fact its arguable that after turn one your EoTG summons should be Terradons... but if you don't have a shadowstrikes' worth of Rippers assembled but have the ability to do so... that's what you should be doing.
     
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  15. Oh_Man
    Cold One

    Oh_Man Well-Known Member

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    Well, it isn't just purely summoning. What I like about Kroak is he has two beastly damage spells. Meanwhile Slann Starmaster has a useless spell for my matchup (affect battleshock of chaos units). With Astrolith Bearer giving +1 casting rolls and 8" spell range and Balewind Vortex giving 6" spell range and Master of Order battle trait giving "If Slann casting roll is 10+ range is increased 6" Kroak can be unleashing spells from across the map!

    Is there any benefit to summoned Terradons having the ability to drop bombs vs Ripper's lack of ability and lack of spawned bloat toad along with their summon? Like, if I kept summoning Terradons, they would all start with a fresh payload of bombs that I could immediately drop. Rippers don't have that 'once per battle' thing. So are Rippers still better despite that?
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  16. ILKAIN
    Terradon

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    in turn one the rippers from the EoTG WILL bring a toad. summoned with conjuration points they will not. after turn two you need to evaluate your opponent and the mission to determine with is a better summon (ripper vs terra) IMO after turn two theres a valid argument to be made that in a decent number of situations the terradons are the better choice. but never on turn one with the EoTG.....NEVER...*insert "watching you" emoji here* lol
     
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  17. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    well, not "immediately". You summon them at 9" from enemy and they cannot move, and you need to fly over a unit to drop the cargo.
    So, you need to charge with some substantial bonus to drop the bombs in the turn you conjured them, otherwise you will be forced to do it in the following turn.
     
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  18. ILKAIN
    Terradon

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    actually they cant even do it then, rocks are dropped only during the movement phase
     
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  19. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    ...and this is a hint, if someone was wondering if I use more rippers or terradons. :p
     
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  20. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    Terradons can shoot in the turn they are summoned, though. That can be a good thing to have as an option.
     
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