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Tutorial Match play Lists I often Use

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by LizardWizard, Feb 25, 2019.

  1. General Grivious
    Saurus

    General Grivious Member

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    Hi, What a mistery...
    I would like to know how do you make this list work? You must be a genius strategist and be very lucky xD, I try this list with some variants (replace the ScV with more skinks and basicly a Astrolith bearer) and they (LoN legion of blood or something like that) literally liquidated me ... The Knight saurus does affraid even a gobelin haha, and if you have the option to charge wirh both rippers and SK, who hit first? My knights were destroyed T-T
     
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  2. LizardWizard
    Skar-Veteran

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    It is certainly not an easy list to pilot. It requires very strong decision making. The list is more about delaying your opponent's ability to access the board than about causing mass casualties. Being a single drop list also allows for control over the tempo of the early game which can be a tremendous advantage on certain battleplans. Deployment and understanding the list's path to victory for each given battleplan are the two most crucial elements of effective use.

    Essentially this list plays the actual game and is only concerned with scoring the objectives. I have had more than one tournament match where I killed less than 300 points of units, but scored double or triple the victory points of my opponent. The Rippers can be quite devastating, but I am generally looking to cause as many enemy units to be engaged in combat as possible while simultaneously abusing the pile in rules to prevent the enemy from achieving effective combat . I use the Knights to pin units into combat and create proximity snags for my opponent to prevent pile in or retreat.

    Idoneth and SCE can be very difficult matches due to their ability to deepstrike as well. Which makes it problematic to control the movements of their units and often requires careful measuring and the mass summoning of skinks.

    In terms of using the Saurus Knights and Ripperdactyls you should always swing first with the Rippers. I normally also use the Knights to support the same fight that the Rippers are engaged in when possible. It is rare that my knights kill anything meaningful. They are mostly there to zone the board and create pathing obstructions for my opponent. Their drums allow them to cover impressive distances.

    I tend to have slightly below average luck with my dice. It is why I favor units such as Ripperdactyls and Razordons who produce a high volume of attacks which can help counter balance the dicey nature of the game. Rippers also enjoy a staggering amount of rerolls.

    I have played this list against some of the top Idoneth, LoN, Khorne, and SCE players in the ITC rankins and thus far had great success. It is the only list that I have which has never lost a match for me. The list was undefeated even when I was in the stages of practicing it with my local club. However, it does require the ability to plan three or more turns in advance. To be honest, the list works because I designed it to do a very specific thing and I am skilled at making that thing happen. The only other player I know who has had moderate success with the list is someone whom I gave extensive coaching.

    There is a more exhaustive Q&A between myself and @Wilhelm Stürmer that is posted on this thread. I am not sure how effective he has been with the list, but I imaging he can give some decent insight as well. Sorry to have rambled for so long. Feel free to message me with any specific questions.
     
  3. Wilhelm Stürmer
    Ripperdactil

    Wilhelm Stürmer Well-Known Member

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    Starting here, the next four battle reports are a slightly modified version of @LizardWizard's 2K DT lost. I had decent success with it. I'm building towards the list again in the current 2K Escalation League I'm in. In the battles I've used it in so far, the main reason I didn't win two of the battles was poor decision making on my part and difficulty remembering all the abilities afforded by the list. I think I'll do much better with it this time around and look forward to trying it again.

    I would echo @LizardWizard's assessment of the list. I don't expect much of the Knights, but they do a good job holding up units, while the Saurus Heros, Rippers, and Razordons do the work. Meanwhile Skinks are running amok keeping your VP flowing. It's a great list, but definitely takes several games to get comfortable with.
     
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  4. General Grivious
    Saurus

    General Grivious Member

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    Thx very nmuch for explaining to me!

    First i would like to say that im searching to build my own unbeatable list :D....I want to be the very best, like no one ever was!!! okay okay focus xD

    I read the 4 battles, against Tzeentch no problem, in game versus Skavens i don't understand why he don't snipe Slann T1? the jezail shoot starpriest?... In my community there is 1 player Skaven and i have won 4 times and 1 loose...Shadowstrike are very strong against him!
    The game vs DoK is exactly what happend to me yesterday against LoN- 2 charges are very bad for seraphon, especially with rippers and Saurus K, because they saves on 5 .... saying this I started to analyze the list PRO/CONS of Dracothion BT

    PRO:
    - Get one drop, so decide who go first
    - More CP (good but Command Hability of Seraphon are Meh, to reroll charges and other i suppose)
    - TP from heaven who allow to control (for a few moment) map territory
    (Forgot some one? pls tell me !!!!)

    CONS:
    - Cost of the battalion: 860 /with ScV on CO and 1000 on Carno - All of this for 44/49 Wounds (30 wounds saving on 5)
    - Put the slann at risk - Magic - Shooting - Charges? (example battle 2 against Skavens - get lucky staying at 1 wound xD and against DoK)
    - 5 Knight Event boosted don`t do several damage - they aren't tanky and also they are just 5 models, so capture Objectives and resist on it are not a good choice for them
    - A problem with this list playing with Shadowstrike starhost is that you cannot make 2 charges or more when the rippers charges, because Saurus K are going to die in ripost of enemy unit...(Example DoK battle)
    -If the doble TP on Slann doesn't work?
    - I think its easy to counter it when you understand that the important unit are :
    - the Skinks (if they die you can't grab/score objectives, and summon new is in the end of turn so loosing time to moove/tp them)
    - Slann (easy kill if you stay in enemy territory and don't have doble turn)
    - Attack the Saurus K with some less important stuff (im shure that they event cannot kill a magician if he charge them xD)

    So, i know that Saurus K are not here to make damage, but it would not be better play 10 Saurus Knight on heaven buffed with 3CP of the Scar Vet on CO an maybe an Astrolith Bearer? (its probabely stupid but well ^^")(he can be on heaven right?)

    And finally, if the purpose of this is make a very strong presion on enemy territory why not play with 40 Saurus Warriors and TP them back to enemy units - 40 Saurus Warrios (360 points) are going to die but entertain enemy (+shadowstrike turn 2 :p ) for 2 or 3 turn while skinks grab VP? And maybe with doble tp with Astrolith Bearer into the unit of Saurus Warriors xD ....

    Searching the true in the lustria World, i said: THX for answear and sorry for my grammar :)
     
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  5. Wilhelm Stürmer
    Ripperdactil

    Wilhelm Stürmer Well-Known Member

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    @General Grivious He can't snipe my Slann T1 because I hide the Slann behind cover. Jezzails require LoS. Since he's primarily a summoning battery and his unbinds are board wide I always deploy him behind or in cover and towards the back of my zone.

    I've not tested 10x Knights and an AstroBear, but for me, I'd rather have a Carnosaur.

    I wouldn't call the Slann an easy kill. On a BW (which I use until 2K) he's got a 3+ save and depending on the Ulgu defense Artefact, he can be untargetable by melee (once), or -1 to be hit. And there's always the Seraphon Artefact. Great Rememberer gives you two chances at a 3+ teleport, so it's good odds you won't be stuck in enemy territory. IIRC, any time that's happened to me, it's been due to me forgetting to use LoSaT, not because it didn't work. Plus, I can often teleport him into cover, making his Save better. He's not super hard, but if you don't make poor decisions with him, he should survive just fine.

    Yes, Knights are a tax, but they make for a good screen and can do some work. Trust me, I have plenty of issues with Saurus units, but they can be effective.

    The one drop makes a huge difference. Determining how the game starts allows for so much opportunity, especially when you leave your opponent guessing at how they should deploy, because you have 4-5 units that aren't deployed.

    This list absolutely requires a high level of strategy and little room for error, but it's not restrictive and makes for a serious mind game to the opponent.
     
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  6. Canas
    OldBlood

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Knights are best at minimum size, if you want to have 10 just get two units. A unit of 10 is simply quite unwieldy and the majority of buffs we can place on them are AoE anyways. The flexibility offered by being able to split them into two groups and the overal more general ease of movement far outweights the benefit of getting serpent staff on 10 models at a time.

    Also, they're about the only saurus model that isn't a genuine tax, they're the only ones even resembling cost-efficient and the only ones that can do their job without requiring to be buffed with everything we got. The depressing thing is just that their job isn't very impressive and glamorous as it mostly involves dying in droves while chipping away at the enemy. On the bright side, it's slightly more glamorous than a skinks job, skinks don't even get to chip away at the enemy :p
     
  7. LizardWizard
    Skar-Veteran

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Yeah, I had one game where my opponent jovially threw dice and said "didn't expect that" when I gave him first turn. Mind games are real with this list:D Part of the reason I like the list is because of the psychology involved. If you are good a feigning your intent during deployment you can cause your opponents to make some serious mistakes. I have had more than one opponent tell me my list would never win more than one game against them. Or they say something along the lines of how they made a bunch of misplays.
     
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  8. GuaDan
    Kroxigor

    GuaDan Well-Known Member

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    Shouldn't we all?
     
  9. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    I will wait the next battletome for that.
    For now 3 will suffice. :p

    Now that i think on it, i should try to play a narrative campaign, Kurks style...3 EotG, 2 stegadon, 3 bastiladon... :rolleyes:
     
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  10. Nart
    Razordon

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    I hope, new battletome will give us battle trait, that makes bastiladons and stegadons battleline, allowing to field true thunderbeast army.
     
  11. Caleb ex nihilo
    Saurus

    Caleb ex nihilo Active Member

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    How do you deal with the FEC Gristlegore general in your DT/SS list?
    In my experience, shadowsyrike doesn't work vs him as he will attacks twice before Rippers ever get a chance (and he usually can clear 6 rippers in one attack phase when he is kitted properly).

    I've killed him with bastiladons and with double turns of 8 razors.

    Just curious what your strategy is against FEC Ghoul King on TG in gristlegore.

    Love the DT/SS list! Lightbulb clicked when I read your summaries of it!!
     
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  12. LizardWizard
    Skar-Veteran

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    I am glad you are enjoying the DT/SS list.

    I have switched to using Doppelganger Cloak on my ScV Carno souly because of the rise in Gristlegore at tournaments. The Carno deals with the General on Terrogheist/ZombieDragon and the Rippers deal with the other behemoths.

    I generally put my Razordon shots into the hero behemoth unless they leave their Abhorrent Archregents accessible to them and it hasn't summoned yet.

    If I am expecting to play more than one Gristlegore opponent at an events I even drop the SSshackles to bring the Oldblood with Doppelganger Cloak in place of the ScV. Dump your command points from the Carno (OB or ScV) onto itself if you really want the target dead.

    You also need to attempt to dispel the Chalice any turn it is on the field.

    One last thing, you want to have your Cogs set to movement on your first turn. This is to help ensure your Carno makes the charge while it is your turn when your cloak is actually usable. This means you need to have any enemy units you are afraid of tied up in combat to dampen the buffs to movement in their turn.
     
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  13. Acehilator
    Saurus

    Acehilator Member

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    @LizardWizard Does it make any sense to run your Shadowstrike 1k list without Razordons?

    I am using the release of Contrast paints as an excuse to start an AoS army, and looking to build a Skink/Monster- based list (TW2 Tehenhauin campaign is a great inspiration). Razordons are not available anymore, and I am not really keen on converting them (scoured the internets, did not see a single idea that I liked).

    My gaming environment would be casual/semi-competetive, but everybody else has Fantasy/AoS experience, I only played 40k for a bit over a year now. Most of my games would be against Stormcast, Nighthaunt and a bit of Skaven.
     
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  14. Canas
    OldBlood

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    You should be fine without the razordons, especially in a more casual setting. Just get them as your next investment once they become available again.
     
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  15. GuaDan
    Kroxigor

    GuaDan Well-Known Member

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    Does i make any sense to live without Razordons? :/
     
  16. LizardWizard
    Skar-Veteran

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Welcome to Lustria!

    The effectiveness of Razordons is hard to duplicate in our army. That being said you can certainly have good results with 1k Shadowstrike without them.

    Perhaps something like this:

    Allegiance: Seraphon
    - Mortal Realm: Ulgu

    LEADERS:
    Skink Starpriest
    (80)
    - General
    - Command Trait : Master of Star Rituals
    - Artefact : Miasmatic Blade

    Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (260)
    - Artefact : Doppelganger Cloak
    Skink Priest (80)
    - Cloak of Feathers

    UNITS:
    6 x Ripperdactyl Riders (280)
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

    BATTALIONS:
    Shadowstrike Starhost
    (180)

    TOTAL: 1000/1000
    EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1
    WOUNDS: 58

    Put the Feather Cloak Skinkpriest in the battalion. It should have more than enough movement to keep up with your Skinks and help to support your Rippderactyls and Carno. The list is three drops, which is less ideal than one or two, however you should still be setting the game's tempo in most cases. You could also fit a Slann in place of the Oldblood Carno.
     
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  17. Acehilator
    Saurus

    Acehilator Member

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    Thanks for the quick reply, although after lurking this forum for a few days I'm not really surprised. :p

    Man, that list looks strange coming from 40k, especially as a Tyranid player. So few bodies, lol.

    Any thoughts on just changing the Razordons to a Troglodon to keep the big Skink unit? Seems like a waste to not have a stronger unit to benefit from "The Trap is Sprung". And 50 Skinks with some proper jungle bases should look dope on the table :)
     
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  18. Canas
    OldBlood

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    A unit of skinks will Always hit like a wet noodle no matter how you try to buff em up. Don't bother with using them offensivly unless you can literally throw 100's at your opponent so he gives up in frustration :p
     
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  19. LizardWizard
    Skar-Veteran

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Terradons wouldn't be a bad replacement.

    40 Jav skinks can get some damage done. Their unit size bonus would make the unit 3+ hit 4+ wound. And with Stealthy Advance pluse their 8" movement there is a high likelihood of them getting in range to shoot. However, you might find it hard to Wary Fighter with a unit of this size. And with only an 8" range on their missile weapons you can expect to have them charged.

    1k AoS is a different beast from 2k. 2k is all about hordes of units to hold objectives, 1k is about killing and mobility.
     
  20. LizardWizard
    Skar-Veteran

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    As I think about it, you should take more Ripperdactyls and drop the skinks count.

    Something like this:
    Allegiance: Seraphon
    - Mortal Realm: Ghur

    LEADERS:
    Skink Starpriest
    (80)
    - General
    - Command Trait : Master of Star Rituals
    - Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm


    UNITS:
    6 x Ripperdactyl Riders (280)
    6 x Ripperdactyl Riders (280)
    20 x Skinks (120)
    - Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

    BATTALIONS:
    Shadowstrike Starhost
    (180)

    TOTAL: 1000/1000
    EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1
    WOUNDS: 70
     

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