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AoS New Seraphon player - ADVICE

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Lordmariskal, Nov 20, 2015.

  1. Lordmariskal
    Jungle Swarm

    Lordmariskal New Member

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    Dear Friends,

    I am a new SERAPHON player and I would appreciate your advice to build a FUN and BALANCED list that is able to win some battles when played Smart.

    I am playing in a community that uses Age of Sigmar SDK points systems and is limiting HEROES usage to a máximum of 2. To build our lists we use the WARSCROLL BUILDER web http://scrollbuilder.com/.

    To start my army I have build the following 1.500 points LIST. It is based on SKINKS (shadowstrike starhost) and on MONSTERS (thunderquake starhost once it reaches the 2.000 points).

    I thank you your advice, comments, tactics and synergies that could be improved.

    1.500 points (SDK SYSTEM + 2 HEROES MAXIMUM)

    HEROES
    • Slann Starmaster (140)
    • Saurus oldblood on Carnosaur (282)
    UNITS
    • Ripperdactyl Riders x 3 (126)
    • Skinks x 24 (240) - Boltspitters & Moonstone Clubs
    • Chameleon Skinks x 10 (190)
    MONSTERS
    • Stegadon (233)
    • Engine of the Gods (289) (keyword Skink Priest for Shadowstrike Starhost purposes)
    TOTAL: 1500 / 1500

    Thank you in advance for your help.

    Best Regards,

    Lordmariskal
     
  2. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Welcome aboard! :)

    Some questions:
    You have a limit of 2 heroes. EotG doesn't cout toward that limit?
    Why are you fielding the Saurus oldblood on Carnosaur? (Leaving aside that Lord Kroak is magnificent), you could take a less costly hero: I'm thinking to a skink starseer. At that point, tnx to Cosmic Herald + Curse of Fate, the EotG should summon that Carnosaur very easily.
    Are you sure about that 24 skinks? that numer is weird, IMO they desperately need to be at least 30.
     
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  3. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Best advice I can give you. The Seraphon can fulfill any role, but to be truly effective they have to commit to that role for the entire army. If you want shooting army, blast it out with dedicated skinks. Defensive? Temple Guard and only Temple Guard. Aggressive melee? Warriors with a Sunblood. Based on your list, seems to me like you want a ranged army with the skinks.

    First thing, get a Skink chief. He's dropped from the Battle Tome but he's still in the app so he's legit still, it seems. The model's gone now though, so getting it either second-hand or converting one (easier than it looks) would be necessary but you want him for that command ability that makes Skinks badass. Make him your general and drop the Oldblood from that list. Then make up for the lack of heavy fighting from the Oldblood by grabbing a Bastiladon because it's the best monster we have, but make sure it has the Solar Engine because that's where all of its good attack ability comes from. And always have Mystic Shield active on your Bastiladon because it makes it one of the best tanks in the game.

    Don't give your skinks clubs because melee and skinks do not mix. Skinks is melee is just a longer way of saying "massacre," they'll die if you breathe on them too hard, let alone if you smack them with a pointy stick. Give the skinks shields instead for that rend immunity, that'll save some lives. And never get in melee with your skinks, if you wind up in melee by accident, use your Wary Fighters ability to BAMF out of there as fast as possible. Keep the Boltspitters, though.

    Don't feel like you have to use your chameleons straight away, you can keep them camouflaged until an opportunity opens up to use them if you want. Do try to get them to appear in terrain, though. That 3+ save is worth it.

    Keep your Engine by your Slann to get the extra dice roll, it helps. Plus the Engine is largely useful as a support unit rather than a front line unit, so putting it on your back line is often bizarrely effective. Unusual for a monster, I know, but remember that you're not taking it for the monster. You're taking it for the reality-warping superweapon on the monster's back.

    Also have your skinks all in one unit so you can get that +1 To Hit horde bonus.

    Lastly, use your melee units like your Bastiladon and Rippers (and maybe your Engine if you need to) to act as buffers between your skinks and your enemy melee units, preventing them from charging your skinks and letting your skinks shoot at the tarpitted enemies, especially effective if you use the Bastiladon.

    I hope that helps.
     
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  4. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Another couple of basic questions.
    What models / units do you have? How's your meta, regarding proxy?
     
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  5. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Also this is wrong. You want the Slann rather than the Starseer because the Slann can summon and throw out a Mystic Shield for the tankier units that need it, plus the Slann has a much greater utility than the Starseer with its constellations. The Great Drake meshes extremely well with Skinks.

    Also yeah, welcome aboard. It's nice to see a new face! :D
     
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  6. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Maybe I wasn't clear.
    I'm not saying "take a Starseer instead of a Slann"
    I'm saying "take a Slann AND a Starseer, instead of a Slaan and an Oldblood"
     
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  7. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Oh lord, my mistake. :sorry:
    But on that point, the Skink Chief would be a better call for the second hero. He'd make a great general for this army due to his Skinkpower Command Ability.
     
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  8. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Don't worry ;)

    That said, I agree on the Skink Chief. With only 2 heroes, it would be more effective for a main skinks army... the Starseer makes sense if you want to max you chances with the EotG.
     
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  9. Lordmariskal
    Jungle Swarm

    Lordmariskal New Member

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    Dear Friends,

    Thank you very much for all your great advice and help.

    1. You are completly right! EotG counts as a hero, so I will eliminate one hero from the list to free space for the EotG.

    2. I agree that the hero Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur can be summoned and hence it is a waste of points to include it in the list.

    3. I take note that skinks with boltsspitters & Star Bucklers are optimal since they can shoot at maximum range and have a +6 save. I also take note that skinks in numbers of 30 are desirable due to + hit bonus.

    4. Unfotunately in my community only warscrolls inlcuded in the battletome are allowed so I can not use skink chief.​

    Considering all your advice I have tuned my list. Bellow is the result.

    HEROES
    • Slann Mage-Priest (140)

    UNITS
    • Skinks x 30 (330) - Boltspitters & Star bucklers
    • Chameleon Skinks x 10 (190)
    • Ripperdactyl Riders x 6 (252)
    • Salamanders x 1 (55)
    • Skink Handlers x 3 (24)
    MONSTERS
    • Stegadon (233)
    • Engine of the Gods (289)

    TOTAL: 1513 / 1500
    Please, let me have again your advice and comments on the list and regarding general tactics playing SKINKS armies.

    Also, let me know your opinión about using Lord Kroak in bigger games. In bigger games, where 3 heros are allowed, I am planning to play with Slann + Starseer + EotG. Do you think it is wise and optimal to replace (Slann + Starseer) with only (due to points restrictions) Lord Kroak in their place?

    Thank you a lot in advance.

    Lordmariskal
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
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  10. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Slann + Starseer + EotG is an Amazing combo (note the capital letter).

    But on the other side, Lord Kroak is probably our best character, and a top tier in the whole AoS.
    4 spells / turn is a big deal, and multiple casting of celestial deliverance rocks (especially if you boost the range with a standard bearer, and there's no reason why you shouldn't).
    Comet's call means free mortal wounds with no range limit.
    His command ability is absolutely good.
    He's almost invulnerable.... surround him with a unit of temple guards, alongside with Chakax, and he'll be unkillable.
    Now you have an unkillable mage that can cast (and summon) 4 times / turn, and if the enemy tries to smash the bunker, he will taste all the power of celestial deliverance.

    In CC, he fights almost as an Oldblood (range 3'', 2d6 Attacks, +3/+3, rend -1)... note that with a range 3'' it means you can hit hard even if you are in a safe position, behind the curtain of your guards.

    Lord Kroak is so good it hurts.
     
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  11. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    It's common belief that Kroak is just better than a Slann in general. This common belief is absolutely incorrect, Kroak is not better than a Slann. "But Bainbow, don't you field Kroak instead of a Slann?" Why yes, hypothetical voice, yes I do play Kroak. The reason for this is because Kroak is not better than the Slann, he's the same as the Slann.
    When looking at Kroak, you need to take into account that while he is undeniably a more powerful wizard with better spells and four casts per turn rather than the three that the Slann gets, he offers practically no utility outside of basic summoning. The Slann, meanwhile, can offer +1 casting, rerolls of 1 to hit, bonus saves against shooting, the ability to grant Fly to any unit, etc. The Slann may be a weaker caster, but he is a far better support character, and support characters are infinitely valuable in AoS as synergy is a massive thing in the game.
    So, the question here is what's the better option for you, Kroak or the Slann, massive attack or great support. Well the key here is your playstyle and army. If you favour a defensive strategy like I do, filling out your side of the board with ranks of Temple Guard and daring your opponent to try to break your lines, then you want Kroak. Think of Kroak like a Dwarf's cannon, you use his Comets to soften the enemy while they trudge towards you, killing off heroes so that by the time they reach you, their army has less synergy, allowing you to mop the floor with them. For bonus points, you then spam Celestial Deliverance when they get into melee to really hurt them, making an effective Kroakbomb trap that your opponent just walked right into.
    The Slann, meanwhile, is perfect for an aggressive army. Partnered with a Starseer, the Slann becomes an excellent support to help your hordes wear down on your enemy. Giving the Slann the Great Drake constellation, which if you didn't get at the start of the game is made easier by having the Starseer cast Curse of Fates on your Slann to get the nice +1 to the Constellation change roll and to guarantee you don't roll a 1, will make your attacks hit much easier for everyone in your army. Should you start to feel the burn and have your attacks repelled, switch to the Staff constellation for the +1 to casting. This, combined with an Astriloth Bearer, a Curse of Fates, and if you're lucky some Arcane terrain, will net you a great +4 to casting, greatly improving your odds of summoning double the models of whatever unit you summon, allowing you to very quickly bring in some much desired backup.
     
  12. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    I'm not sure I totally agree.
    They cast almost the same spells... Kroak in a greater number and also have the comet and celestial deliverance.
    The command ability of kroak is usually better than the Slann's (you can mitigate it using the starseer for more dices... but I could say that Kroak and the starpriest together give you a ton of rerolls).

    The only thing that the Slann really adds (and I agree it's not little), is the constellation effect... but in the case of the Great Drake, we also have other way to obtain that reroll (skink patrol for example)
     
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  13. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Kroak's Command Ability is indeed better than the Slann's, but if you're fielding an aggressive army then odds are you'll be wanting the Sunblood's Command Ability or the Scar-Vet on Cold One's because they have more attack-focused Commands.
    The rerolls to hit can be obtained other ways, this is true, but they either only work for Saurus or require you to pretty much field a Skink-only army to manage the battalion for the skinks, and then that only works for said skinks. The constellation gives you a much broader blanket effect that can be valuable in the opening turns. In addition, the Staff is something that nobody else can replicate save for the Astriloth, and that stacks with the Staff anyway.
     
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  14. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    True. I'm biased, because I actually tend to play just some TG "bunker", and the first killing is done by the skink patrol (Ripper / 2 chama units), by the summoned units, and by Razordons with handler (another unit that rerolls 1 without the need for the Drake). Plus a bastiladon / EotG of course. ;)
     
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  15. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Mm, the frog-for-you depends on your overall build. I'm mainly here now to specify that neither one is inherently better than the other and that it depends on your army type.
     
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  16. Freddy25
    Kroxigor

    Freddy25 Well-Known Member

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    I usually prefer the Slann, not for deep tactical reasons, but because:
    - I like A LOT more the Slann model;
    - I think it is A LOT of fun to play (while Kroak seems to me a kill-kill-kill-summon-summon-summon spammer);
    - I believe Slanns suit better or new "celestial beings" thing by having the ability to look at the sky and interpret/modify the constellation which you are fighting under.

    And Kroak is Kroak... awesome, of course, but the Slann can be my Slann, which makes him a lot better in my eyes! :)

    Edit: Whoops, I didn't remember it was a Tactic threads! My post doesn't fit very well in this section :oops:

    P.S. By the way, I think it would be surely acceptable to replace Kroak with Slann+Starseer taking into account points restrictions ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
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  17. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Oh you don't need deep tactical reasons to have a model you like, go for the Slann regardless of anything if that's what you like, more power to you. I'm not making my Eshin, Troll, or Ghoul armies because I think they've got good tactics, I'm doing it because I like them.
     
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  18. Lordmariskal
    Jungle Swarm

    Lordmariskal New Member

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    Dear Friends,

    Thank you again for your great advice that I will take into consideration when building and playing my army.

    1. Regarding Lord Kroak and generic Slaan, I have to say that due system restrictions (SDK or Azyr - in my community we use both systems) in small and middle sized games I will have to use generic Slaan in duo with Sarseer. Anyhow, due that Lord Kroak is my favourite aestheticaly and gamewise I will try to use him in big games when possible.

    2. I would appreciate your opinión/advice regarding bellow list that I have prepared for Azyr system games.​

    At APOCALYPSE level I can play Lord Kroak and I would like to play him protected with Temple Guard, but due to points restrictions I can not use Saurus Eternity Wardem with them, instead I can use Saurus Astrolith Bearer.
    • ¿Is it a good combo Saurus Astrolith Bearer with Lord Kroak?
    • ¿There are other options on complementing my monster+skink list as for example saurus Warriors or knights instead of using Temple Guard?
    • Azyr comp limits summoning of Lord Kroak to máximum 4 units at any given time, but it is OK to summon Heroes and Monsters ¿Which are in your opinión the recommended summons according to my list and play style?
    • Is it wise to have a unit of Skinks in my shadowstrike strhost or it would be better to substitute it by another chamaleon Skink unit?

    As Bainbow, I also like to play till some extend defensively and I tend to base my strategy in counterattaking.

    Below is the list:

    HEROES
    • Lord Kroak
    • Saurus Astrolith Bearer
    UNITS
    • Skinks x 30 - Boltspitters & Star bucklers
    • Chameleon Skinks x 10
    • Ripperdactyl Riders x 5
    • Razordons x 1 + Skink Handlers x 3
    • Saurus Guard x 10
    MONSTERS
    • Stegadon
    • Engine of the Gods
    • Bastiladon
    Thank you in advanced!


    Lord Mariskal
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  19. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    Is it only points that restrict you using Eternity Warden and if so could you drop the Astrolith bearer and some skinks or a couple of Chameleon skinks to fit him in?, 10 attacks is alot to give up.

    I'm not very experienced but the Eternity warden just seems to good to leave out.
     
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  20. Lordmariskal
    Jungle Swarm

    Lordmariskal New Member

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    Thanks a lot for your reply Crowsfoot!

    In Azyr Composition there is a limit of Hero points. For example in apocalypse syzed games the máximum is 15.

    As Lord Kroak value is 7, Engine of the Gods 6 and Eternity Warden 3, unfotunatelly they surpass the total amount of 15.

    Maybe an alternative is to include Astrolith Bearer (its value is only 2) and summon eternty warden during first turn. ¿What do you think?

    Best Regards,

    Lordmariskal
     

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