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8th Ed. No Love For Lord Kroak?

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Discussion' started by Albeon, Aug 8, 2013.

  1. Albeon
    Jungle Swarm

    Albeon New Member

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    Im wondering about Lord Kroak, is he usable now?
    Before he was way to many points, but now hes much cheaper.
    I love the model and his fluff.I wanna give him a try.
    Running him with an unbreakable Temple guard unit sounds interesting.
    What do you guys think?
     
  2. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

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    Welcome to the forum!

    In one of the other threads, he was mentioned. He has been substantially improved. I have yet to get the book. It will probably be a while before I get a chance to play him. I am sure someone can give some more insight.
     
  3. DavidSS
    Skink

    DavidSS Member

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    I absolutely love Lord Kroak in this Army Book. He only has his one spell, but it deals damage to EVERY enemy unit in 12"(10+), 18"(18+) or 24"(24+). And he can spam it until he runs out of power dice. Even better, he can now cast this spell through skink priests. Just imagine flying a priest with cloak of feathers behind (or just straight up in front of) enemy lines, and spamming this spell. It's going to tear down on any army greatly. His cost is about 200 ss.
     
  4. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    I am definitely going to try him out this edition, In the other editions I just couldn't squeeze him in the army.
     
    DrMad likes this.
  5. Nakki
    Skink

    Nakki New Member

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    Here's my take on the Venerable Lord Kroak.

    I would rank lord kroak as the second best special character (after Tetto) in the new book. I think he is really great at what he does. As back in the good old days kroak is prob best in big games where you can take a second slann to give you the utility that kroak lacks. you need to make sure your list is not reliant any any buffs other than Wildthang which you can get from the skink priests. But to kroak!

    1) He makes your temple guard unit flippin awesome! Unbreakable and -1 to hit from ranged and combat attacks. Throw him in a horde of temple guard and i would give it a banner for some speed (Jaguar o_O) to help it not get chaffed to oblivion.
    2) his spell aint too shabby 2d6 s4 hits is nice, and if your fighting undead or deamons GG. But of course the best way to use this is through your skink priests, particularly one with a cloak of feathers! It might even be worth taking a trogolodon so you have a more survivable vassal to throw into the middle of your enemies lines. The beauty of this is that you should be able to be hitting half your opponents army with 2d6 s4 hits by turn 1.
    3) another factor going toward his awesomeness at making OP temple guard unit is he can't miscat!!!! no more blowing up half your temple guard unit with miscasts not to mention.....no miscasts is epic......
    4) this dude doesn't die! T5 6W 3+ WARD SAVE. Other Than flaming magic dwarf cannon balls -_- this dude is pretty unkillable so no need to worry about charging the unit in as fast as you can!
    5) Finally, the kicker. HE IS 400 POINTS. 400!!!! Lord kroak is apparently our cheap choice now.....who saw that coming.....

    I think the ideal place for kroak is in a 800 point temple guard deathstar charging down the middle of the board in a 3k+ game. Given that, at 400 points he is going to do just fine in 2400 pts!

    Pros: makes beefcake temple guard units. Serious damage potential if enemy does not deal with you vassals. Cheap!!!

    Cons: 1 trick pony. If you let your vassals die your going to have trouble doing serious damage with him. Your army will lack the massive utility that we all got so used to from 7th edition (he can't make your I1 lizards move 20 inches a turn an always strike first =/ )


    P.S. : can we discuss how mad I am that GW is trying to tell me Skink Oracles on Trogolodons discovered the Golden Pyramid of the Turtle Islands instead of Lord Kroaks head skink priest Ten-Zlati....... they be trollin on my fluff yo!
     
  6. Soteks Prophet
    Skink

    Soteks Prophet New Member

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    Exactly my thoughts. I had a mini nerdgasm when I connected those - fly the skink behind enemy lines, cast mini-lizard-nuke ad infinatum until enemies die leaving one skink that's buzzed out of his mind! :jawdrop:
     
  7. forlustria
    Kroxigor

    forlustria Member

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    dwarf flaming cannon will not touch him in a templegaurd unit as he has the palanquin rule AUTO PASS look out sir
     
  8. Anton_S
    Temple Guard

    Anton_S Member

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    He certainly sounds interesting, especially with the cheaper TG and casting through skinks. How does no miscast work, can he still IF? I'd be tempted to 6-dice it every turn through whatever priest is closest to the enemy. But in games up to 2500 I guess it would get old fast as a playing style.

    It's also nice that they finecasted him, I always liked the model but I've been reluctant to add another big lump of lead on a flying stand.
     
  9. forlustria
    Kroxigor

    forlustria Member

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    the mo miscast thin is that he ignores a miscast on a 2+ but takes a strength 6 hit (which I guess he can save with his 3++) on a roll of 1 he takes the miscast as normal.
     
  10. Andrinor
    Saurus

    Andrinor Member

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    Yeah, he is really boss and totally a viable choice over a standard Slann. The ability to cast his spell through Priests is just sick. Couple more points:

    - His Wizard level can never drop below 1.
    - If he ever forgets his spell, he immediately remembers it. This for me was the biggest fix that he needed. Also, if an enemy steals or borrows his spell, they immediately forget it.
     
  11. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Hmm this might actulay be a decent list to put a Troglodon in (Kroak can cast through him). :smug:
     
  12. olderplayer
    Chameleon Skink

    olderplayer New Member

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    Compare him with a similar 400 point Slann. He gets +1 to ward saves (worth about 15ss or mroe going from 4+ to 3+ ward). He makes the unit -1 to hit in close combat and BS shooting (which is huge, like Mark of Nurlge probably worth a lot with the TG block) worth at least 1ss per model and as much as 2ss per model in terms of survivability, or at least 50 and as much as 100 points in a decent TG unit. He makes the unit unbreakable and is unbreakable (note that the model ihas the unbreakable special rule even without TG and also makes its TG unit unbreakable). That means that the Lord does not break and get run down like happens the to Slann if his unit dies or the unit hs a really bad dice roll on a break test (or gets hit with a spell that lowers LD and then fails the break test). He has a miscast limitation that generally keeps him from being blown up early in the battle and limits severely the chance of decimating the TG or saurus unit he is in, whereas miscasts can, even with soul of stone, often kill a lot of TG models because of the Slann's footprint in the unit. That has to be worth at least 50 points.

    His point cost is just low enough that at the standard 2500 point battles in our tournaments, you can spend 225 on an oldblood, which is enough for a great weapon or cheap weapon and 5pt magic shield option, armour of destiny and dawnstone in Kroak's unit.

    However, he does not have to wide selection of augment and hex spells of a Slann and cannot take magic items, so you need skink priests for the magic defense of a dispel scroll, cube, or sceptre of stability (combine with cloak of feathers) and lore of beasts for wyssans (less need for heavens for iceshard with the death mask although great if stacks with death mask -1 to hit). This, his base value is probably a bit less than a Slann. It is also apparent that he cannot be the BSB. But, his one spell is awesome when paired with a skink priest in a fast skrox or skink skirmisher unit or with cloak of feathers in terms of ability to fly out. into the midst of the enemy army. Note that his spell targets "all" enemy units within 12" and is 2D6 S4 hits and can be boosted. Thus, it apparently over-rides the typical BRB restrictions on direct damage spell targets being in front arc but iand appears to over-ride the limit on not casting ito target units in combat (another FAQ to ensure correct??). However, unlike the previous version of the spell which explicity says that it can target models in cc, this version does not have that explicit language. Furthermore, against TK, Daemons, and VC armies he gets 3D6 hits.

    Start with a base value of 250, add 50 for death mask, 30 for +1 ward (adding +1 ward when already at 4+ ward is worth double or more of adding a 6+ ward worth 15 points in the BRB), 30 to 50 for unbreakable, and 50 for miscast limitation. Under that approach, Korak is undeer costed.

    Tetto is the only other undercosted special character and is an interesting alternative to a Slann build run in a skrox unit horde where he can stay in the second rank and the re-roll 1's to cast 5/6 ot the time, boosts the casting ability of him and the skink preists quite a bit. Loremaster Heavens is very good, 5+ ward save for a model in the second rank of the unit is good, pal keeps him safe from dreaded 13th (minor given likely size of unit), and Eye of Old Ones is pretty big with D3 units able to vanguard and get out there faster. But he is not broken. base value of 50ss, plus 15ss for ward save, plus 15 to 25ss for pal ability to keep out of combat, plus 15 ss for loremaster, plus maybe 50ss for re-roll 1's when casting ability allowing casting wyssans and other spells with two dice much more reliably (but re-rolling 1's is a must and increases the risk of miscasts considerablywhen throwing 2 or more dice at spells).

    I ran similar numbers on Kroq-Gar. and he was just barly worth his point cost but very vulnerable to cannons and stome throwers. The problem with him is that he knocks out the ability to run a slann, forcing you to either spam skink priests with multiple dispel items (scroll, cube, sceptre).

    Gor-Rok might be just worth his points cost or is slightly overcosted. He gets +1T over scar vet and is abile 5/6 of the time to avoid multiple wounds and KB, +1 sscaly skin, re-roll to hit and PF on 5+ with his magic weapon, and +2 AS with his shield (plus reduced risk of dangerous terrain test), but he has no light armour, no ward save, and no re-roll of armour save option on a two wound model with I3.

    Tehenhuan is the only other special character of interest because of his high LD for a skink and ability to allow for a decent oldblood or light slann in the lord slot. A lvl 3 lore of beasts wizard with 5+ scaly skin, and 5+ ward is pretty good. Not sold on running him with jungle swarms given a 5+ AS amd 5+ ward and 3 wounds is not a lot and his +1 S sword on the charge + poison is not worth much with 3 attacks., nor is his I1 D6 Ws2 S2 poison snake cc attack. You would almost pay that price for a lvl 3 beats caster with a 5+ AS and 5+ ward and that leadership if you hid him in a skink bunker screened by other units but if you add up what is worthwhile, he really is probably overcosted by 15ss.
     
  13. Yanko
    Skink

    Yanko New Member

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    As for Gor-Rok, keep in mind that he is also stubborn.
     
  14. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Wonder if it would be worth it to run Chakax in Kroaks huge Temple Guard unit? :shifty:

    Ps. Don't forget about Tenehuan's ability to keep Swarms from getting "squished".
     
  15. StarFyre2000
    Jungle Swarm

    StarFyre2000 New Member

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    One hing that is kinda strange in Kroak's rules:

    Eternity Guardians says:

    If Lord Kroak joins a unit of Temple Guard, all models in he cmbined unit gain the Unbreakable special rule.

    Does this mean the TG unit can have other charaers suh as a scar vet or a lord on foot and hen when kroak is added, everyone becomes unbreakable?

    is this a way to allow us to add normally non unbreakable chars to the unit?

    Sanjay
     
  16. rothgar13
    Saurus

    rothgar13 New Member

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    As per the rulebook, I would say that if Kroak joins a unit of TG, no other characters may join, because of Unbreakable. However, if Kroak joins a unit that already had the characters in them, I think you can circumvent that limitation. A bit odd, but that's how it seems to read.

    In any case, Kroak sounds like a pretty good deal to me - if you have Skink Priests with Wildform, all you're really in the market for are damage/nuke spells, and he delivers big time in that regard, along with a bunch of side benefits. I'm a fan this time around. :)
     
  17. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    I just scored a Lord Kroak model (along with plenty other LM goodies) and I am very much wanting to try him out. And his new price tag is jaw-dropping! Just have to rely on Beasts/Heavens for buffs and hexes, which is definitely doable. Plus we can double up on Deliverance of Itza spam and Burning Alignment with the Engine. Talk about horde control.
     
  18. Spiney Norman
    Kroxigor

    Spiney Norman New Member

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    Chakax could join Kroaks unit because his is unbreakable with TG, but that's not a terribly efficient use of points since you'll be paying for unbreakable twice, but as you say I don't think any other character can join Kroaks unit because of the unbreakable clause.
     
  19. olderplayer
    Chameleon Skink

    olderplayer New Member

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    I did an analysis of the points value of Chakax. He costs almost twice as much as he should. He special abilities and ward save are only active in a challenge, which is a serious issue when the unit is charged by something with no character or the character can decline the challenge.
     
  20. Bon ban
    Skink

    Bon ban New Member

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    I've used Kroak in a couple of 2000 point games recently, this is my impression:

    His drop in points comes at a slight cost...
    Deliverance of Itza is direct damage, therefore it can't be cast on units in combat; as it is a multi-unit targetting spell my opponent said that, as one of the 5 units within 12 inches of kroak was in combat I couldn't cast i as it would effectively target the particular unit that was in combat. This should be FAQued but if my opponent is right then his one spell is very situational.

    @Mazdamundi, as awesome as a slann bsb on ancient stegadon sounds, it screams cannon magnet and you risk losing your main spellcaster, your bsb, and an already expensive monster. I just wouldn't risk it in a competitive list but in fluffy games why not?

    @Kroq-gar, a tad too expensive to use in 2000pts games, and it isn't even worth the price tag. A tooled up oldblood would eclispe Kroq's power and cost less.

    @Tehenhauin, one of two good spellcasters (for skinks), it reminds me of elven loremasters; quiet fragile, above-par magic and good combat ability for a wizard. I haven't used him but possible uses could include squeezing a lord level wizard into 1000pts or at the head of a huge tode of unbreakable, un-squishable jungle swarms. Cue Sotek themed armies.

    @Gor-rok, in my opinion the best saurus special character. A 2+ armour save is nothing to be sniffed at (just don't go up against vampires and chaos lords) and a solid magic weapon. Sauris' number 1 stumbling block is hitting the enemy, primeval fighter on 5s and re-rols mean that he will be hitting most of the time and strength 5 should do the job required. Oh, and I would love to see the look on my opponent's face when a blood knight or two fail dangerous terrain tests when charging Gor-Rok.

    @Chakax, similar to Carhaydran, a situational character who is absolutely amazing in challenges but is a bit fragile and weak against infantry to be worth his points. Could be nice to see him leading a death star of temple guard made unbreakable by him.

    @Tetto'eko, the perfect anti-gunline character. Lots of static shooters? Stick a comet there. Saurus take too long to get there? Make them vanguard. The only dissappintment is that he's level 2 which is odd considering his fluff.

    @Tiq'taq'to, still got the ridicolous name, and unfortunately hasn't been made much better. His ambushing ws4 terradon unit would be nice but terradons are a bit squishy for such a large point investment.

    @Oxyotl, still a sub-par choice. 10 chamo skinks cost around the same and are a lot more survivable and have a lot more shots. I'm afraid this little guy will continue to collect dust at the back of display cabinets for the next few years...
     

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