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8th Ed. Odd issue with shields and Ward saves

Discussion in 'Rules Help' started by SilverFaith, Sep 2, 2014.

  1. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    Had an odd issue yesterday. A bystander (unofficially the one playing the "judge"), decided to rule that Charmed Shield can't be used in cc when using a 2-handed weapon. It was a Vampire hero with a Halberd, who was indeed unable to use his shield in CC, but the shield in question was charmed shield.

    I reminded him of his save after he took the first wound (which was pretty important, because I had hit him with Piranha Blade), but the "judge" said the shield, and thus the ward save, could not be used if he was using a halberd.

    We both argued against it for a few seconds, but then just relented, as he was sorta appointed as the judge of the fight (ironically to avoid rules disputes), but it just seemed... off.

    Have anyone else run into this problem, and what did you do? Or what would you have done?
     
  2. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    If you have a greatweapon/halbred then you can only use your shield against ranged attacks,
    * because you aren't using your weapon then?
     
  3. LawGnome
    Chameleon Skink

    LawGnome Active Member

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    The judge had it right. The charmed shield works as a shield. The rules state that a shield cannot be used in close combat if the model has a 2 handed weapon.

    The charmed shield basically works as an autoblock function: while you are wielding it, it guides you to stop the first shot. If it is on your back, it can't block anything.
     
  4. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    I'm aware of this. I just never really saw the "ward save" as part of "using the shield". It just states you get a 2+ Ward save aggainst the first wound suffered, with no mention of needing to actually use the shield.

    Requiring to use the shield makes it sound more like a PARRY save, which it doesn't seem to be. We've always run it as something you can use against anything, shooting and artillery included.

    Might be misreading the effect completely here.
     
  5. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    yea, from what I can tell, GW assigns attributes to objects (weapons, armor) and unless otherwise stated, equipment does not imbue the player with attribuses.

    So the parana blade causes d3 wounds: not because is causes the user to have magic arms,
    but rather because it has nasty rows of magicly sharp jaged blades.
     
  6. borkbork
    Ripperdactil

    borkbork Active Member

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    Nope...it states against the first HIT....not wound.

    But on the other hand i do agree with you that it is a totally unclear issue. Indeed you cant use your shield in combat if you are using an halberd, but i does nowhere say that you have to really use your shield for a magical effect to work. And fluff wise you could simply see it as a one use magical cocoon radiating from the shield that will envelop the owner.

    However for a thing like the Enchanted shield it seems to be more clear that you will have to use the shield to apply the armor save bonus. Therefor you can also argue that you will have to be using the charmed shield as well for the magical effect to apply.
     
  7. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm with N810 here. If you can't use a shield at the point of being hit, you can't use it's special ability.

    <rulebending>
    The blade gives the user "Multiple Wounds (D3)" special rule. Meaning that you could legally argue that all wounds caused are D3 wounds.
    </rulebending>

    But that's being a jerk. I only be a jerk to players who make power-lists
     
  8. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    My only issue with this reasoning is that it also means you can't use it to block a cannonball, which is pretty much my primary reason for ever taking it in the first place. The shield is only worth it against things that WILL wound, that also causes multiple wounds. IE wounds on 2+, ignores armour (or at least most of it) etc.

    I think my primary surprises was that someone ruled otherwise. my local group have used charmed shield against cannonballs/shooting/everything since forever, it only came up because he suddenly used it in CC with a two-handed weapon. I just can't help but think that, if you have to phyically use the shield, then that would make it a parry save... which doesn't seem to be the intended use.
     
  9. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    :rolleyes:
     
  10. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    Well yeah, you can only use the shield when not in CC. But unlike Enchanted Shield which specifically says it counts your armour save as +2 rather than +1, the additional effect for Charmed shield have no such specification. In fact, it just says "the bearer", which does not mean you HAVE to be USING it, but rather just "have it on your person".

    Unless GW just uses the words to mean someting entirely different than they actually do. Wouldn't be the first time. (Looking at you, "unmodified" leadership.)
     
  11. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Yea... good luck getting an oponent that agrees with you.
     
  12. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    Eh, we were two players who thought it made sense to use the ward save, no matter what the circumstances. it was the judge who ruled we couldn't.

    And it was my opponent who wanted to use it, not me. So I don't think that will be a problem.
     
  13. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    You can't block a cannonball in combat anyway. Not to mention a look out sir.
     
  14. Screamer
    Temple Guard

    Screamer Member

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    I would say:
    Yes, you can discount the first hit with a charmed shield in CC even if you're wielding a 2-handed weapon since it says bearer of the charmed shield

    But, remember, it's the first hit, not the first wound. Makes a WHOLE lot of difference.
     
  15. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    Sorry if this is a stupid question, but does this logic also apply if the bearer of the Charmed Shield has a magic weapon?

    I ask because in my last game, a Nurgle DP with Sword of Striking/Charmed Shield used the shield in CC against my ally.
     
  16. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    I would say, my conclusion is: Charmed Shield is NOT a parry save, and doesn't need to be actually equipped to be used, but merely have to be in your possession (IE: can be used without actually using the shield itself). You only get the armour bonus from wearing a shield if you use the shield, but the Ward save is always active, until you take the first hit.
     
  17. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    You need a mundane hand weapon and any kind of shield you get the parry bonus. *

    *I think
     
  18. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    In terms of a normal parry save, it says "if you use a hand weapon and a shield, you get a parry save". Under magic items, it specifies you can't parry with a magic weapon OR shield. "A magic shield is threated as a normal shield, but cnnot be used alongside a hand weapon to gain a parry save".

    Unless otherwise stated, of course. (looking at the high elf magic item that explicitly grants a +4 parry save).

    This is also why I don't believe the charmed shield save is a parry save. Furthermore, it discounts a HIT, not a wound, which makes it significantly different than that of a parry save.
     
  19. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Nevermind then, I must be thing of old rules. :oops:
     
  20. lordkingcrow
    Temple Guard

    lordkingcrow Active Member

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    I don't think that reasoning means you couldn't use it against a cannon ball. You can. Just because cannon balls hit automatically doesn't mean it wouldn't work against it. It still "hits" it just doesn't have to roll to hit. As for a cannon ball in close combat... It's an impossibility. You cannot fire a cannon into friendly troops, therefor, you cannot fire a cannonball into close combat. There is always a way to try and wiggle what you want out of the wording, but common sense should prevail. It's a shield, designed to deflect things coming at you. Therefor, if your not using it, it doesn't help you. If it was designed to protect you at all times, it would probably be a ring or necklace. As I see it, the judge is correct in his ruling.
     

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