1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The April Poetry Contest has opened for voting! For more information, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

8th Ed. Protection against TG worst enemy: the slann

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by pendrell, Mar 11, 2015.

  1. pendrell
    Skink

    pendrell Member

    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Hi there, my biggest paranoia is the slann miscasting and taking down half of the TG unit with it, so I am looking at alternatives to stop that from happening. The book gives two options: soul of stone and ethereal solo slann. I tried both of them several times but I haven't really been fully satisfied with any of them. Soul of stone is a nice addition but it is nowhere close to solving the problem. The only acceptable miscast is magical feedback all the rest is a catastrophe. Soul of stone increase the odds to get magical feedback from 18% to 36%, fine, but by no means solution of the problem. I stopped toying around Ethereal solo slann when I figured out how much it hindered the rest of my army. Sometimes it survived the entire game but it often crippled my movement phase because I had to make sure that it was protected at all times and was not dying because of the unstable rule. Let alone the price tag of a survivable ethereal slann. So I settled on TG bunkered slann with soul of stone and looked for magic lores that were "miscast friendly". For a long time I thought that the 2 best alternatives were the 8 signatures for the cheap casting cost which decreased the miscast chances and lore of life for the awsome throne of vines. However, the biggest problem with WD is that sometimes you need some extra punch and you need to cast the boosted version which in turn causes you to throw several dice at one spell along with the chances of miscasting. Lore of life is amazing, but you are not guaranteed to roll throne of vines and lore of life without throne of vines is mediocre.

    One thing I hadn't thought of is using SMOKE and MIRRORS for miscast protection. Does it work? the idea is keeping a skink priest within 18". When the time comes that you miscast, you first resolve the spell, then smoke and mirrors triggers so that you swap the slann with the priest and then the miscast triggers when your slann is out of the TG block and possibly out of combat. Anybody takes lore of shadow for this added benefit?
     
    Scalenex likes this.
  2. LawGnome
    Chameleon Skink

    LawGnome Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The way I see it, miscasts are an inevitable misfortune. I know of two ways to reduce the damage to the TG:

    - Option 1: Keep the slann on the side of the TG unit. Yes, this means he is exposed if you take a flank charge. However, it also means that 4 fewer TG will die. You still lose a lot of them, but not anywhere near as many.

    - Option 2: don't take the slann in TG. TG are great, they really are. However, if you are tired of losing a ton of points on a bad miscast, then consider these alternatives -

    1) Regular Saurus: The slann sits up front, and they are cheaper. That means that there are 3 fewer troops that die on a miscast. Also, you can take the egg to beat up anyone that thinks your wizard is now easy pickings.

    2) Skinks: The universal answer. These cheap little jerks die just as fast as TG do against a miscast, but at 1/3 of the price. Just treat the 100 points or so you spend on a skink cohort as extra slann protection, rather than as a combat unit. You run around, take arrows like a boss, and magic up everything you can.
     
    Scalenex likes this.
  3. Rettile
    Ripperdactil

    Rettile Active Member

    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    72
    Trophy Points:
    28
    OR go for many small spells instead of few big ones
     
  4. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Terradon

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    434
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It is not a protection, but what about the Earthing Rod?

    It will help if you miscast and the possibility of getting Magical feedback is easier.

    It will help a lot if you rolled a 12 on the miscast table.
     
  5. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

    Messages:
    251
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I'm not sure how I would feel if someone would use that tactic against me. I don't think the order is really that clear on which will trigger first since both the miscast and lore ability just says in the rules that after the spell has been resolved. So nothing really prevents you from doing that but I still would feel that it's a bit cheeky thing to pull off.

    But to also answer to the latter part of the question. I don't think that shadow is really that great lore for lizardmen. Not sure if it's that great for any other race for that matter. Only thing it really has going for it is the miasma but other than that I don't really think of it as that viable. The spells are ok but when you can compare the lore to death which is really similar but the spells are just way better and easier to cast overall the shadow seems to be lacking something. - So, no I haven't considered this. :)

    BR
    Agrem
     
  6. Skinquisitor
    Kroxigor

    Skinquisitor Member

    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Put the slann in a skirmisher unit, and forget killing tg-s forever.
     
    Scalenex likes this.
  7. themuffinman873
    Chameleon Skink

    themuffinman873 Member

    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Personally, I cant bring myself to bunker a slann in anything but a TG unit, its like a square peg for a square hole. Heck, I cant even bring myself to go 5 wide and put the slann on one side, its always smack dab in the middle, 6 wide for that symmetrical look.

    I think we should get style VPs for the ridiculous risk we take.
     
  8. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

    Messages:
    251
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28
    This far I concur. :D
    Same for me as I rarely run my slann anywhere else but the TG. However my usual deployment is 10 wide for all the additional attacks gained. I don't really see any more risk here than going more narrow as the unit is stubborn anyway so the ranks won't do much good. Also my slann almost always sits on either side of the unit and rarely in the middle, only sometimes if I need the leadership bubble to reach somewhere the toad can move in the middle of the unit. :p

    BR
    Agrem
     
  9. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    702
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Spells and attributes are resolved before the miscast.
    This is how Wood Elves play their high attribute
    This is how High Elves play their attribute
    This is how Beast' attribute works
    This is how Fire attribute works.

    What you are proposing is as LEGAL as it is genius.

    You can EASILY build a lizardmen list that benefits HUGE from Shadow.
    Especially if you want saurus, tg and krox to shine.
    Lowering enemy strenght and WS is really benefits them.
    Lowering toughness really benefits your skinks

    Pit is awesome for warmachines and greater threats
    Steed of shadows is HUGE for Mounted saurus chars...


    I will try this.
     
  10. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,645
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am definitely going to add your miscast protection trick to the Shadow Slann tactica!

    Well spotted. I have often thought of using Smoke and Mirrors to save a Slann (and pulled it off once), but I never considered using Smoke and Mirrors to save the Temple Guard.

    I had a lot of fun in a 6000 point game with a Shadow and Light pairing (they swapped spells early so they each had two of each). Both Slann had Temple Guard bunkers with an Oldblood acting as Eternity Warden. One Slann bunker got overwhelmed so I had him smoke out to the other TG bunker. Suddenly the nearly dead TG had a very badass Saurus character backing them up, I managed to save the Slann and beat the enemy unit at the same time. Fortunately I never miscast that game.

    With an extra arrow in my quiver, I am probably going to take Shadow Slann in every two Slann game now...
     
  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    11,151
    Likes Received:
    21,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Awesome strategy. Nice find!
     
  12. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

    Messages:
    251
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Sorry but I don't fully agree on the first sentence. Here's my reasoning: It states on the pg 36. on BRB that spell is successfully cast when it is not dispelled - the resolving of the spell comes after. Some attributes say that after the spell is successfully cast they are applied when others tell you to apply them after resolving spells. Miscasts happen after resolving the spell.

    I don't have the WE book so I don't know the wording on it but HE states that after succesfully casting they get the ward save and therefore it is applied before the miscast. Beasts and fire are not that good examples as the attributes are applied even before dispelling.

    For example Life says that you regain one lost wound after successful cast, this I'd say is again applied before miscast. However shadow says that the attribute is in effect after the spell is resolved. Which is at the same time as the miscast should be applied.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that you could not do the character swap before the miscast as the rules don't state anywhere which should happen first and then I guess you should use the "player whose turn it is decides"-rule. To me this rule is rather stupid and I would like to see/find if there would be something other in the rules supporting the idea that some of these attributes are resolved first. :)

    A bit off topic but with this reasoning could you then apply the attribute after the miscast? For example death attribute takes place after resolving the spell so technically you could first lose the pool dice from miscast and after gain more from the attribute...?

    BR
    Agrem
     
  13. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    702
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not to ress-thread this, but I just thought we should refer to this tactic as "to frog jump" :D
     
    discomute, Bainbow and Scalenex like this.
  14. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

    Messages:
    7,765
    Likes Received:
    4,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    check out the throne of vines FAQ...

    Edit well you do get miscast protection from the spell before the miscast...
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    11,151
    Likes Received:
    21,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Love it! :happy:
     
  16. xhotlbeast
    Skink

    xhotlbeast New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    I constantly find im holding back the TG's just so the slann doesn't get into combat, or blow up our elite infantry. A friend also pointed out a 5 wide saurus block idea with a cheap scar vet to fill up the front rank therefore placing the slann in the second rank could be a good alternative. TG's are then freed up from looking after the timebomb and do what they do best.
     
  17. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    11,151
    Likes Received:
    21,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I can see how that tactic has some merit. The problem as I see it is that the Slann adds a lot of functionality to the temple guard. With the Slann in the unit, you instantly benefit from...
    • stubborn
    • immune to psychology
    • possibly some magic items with a unit wide effect (ironcurse icon, MR, etc.)

    So the Slann is both the greatest ally and the greatest enemy to Temple guard.
     
  18. xhotlbeast
    Skink

    xhotlbeast New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    They definitely do receive some great perks for letting the slann ride shotgun :)
    its just frustrating its such a double edged sword, what do you take when you bring a slann to the table? And what tactics do use with him?
     
  19. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,691
    Likes Received:
    822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This highly depends on your preference concerning the slann and magic lores, I'll however give a brief summary of some of alternative methodes you can utilize:

    1) The obvious one is to not place the slann right in the middle, yes it asthetically it looks the best, but putting the slann out to the flank mean that you've reduced models in base contact with him.

    2) Soul of Stone is another kinda obvious choice, doesn't need much explaining.

    3) Choose a lore with low casting value on the spells.

    4) Know your average. Average of a single dice is 3,5 so multiply depending on the number of dice you need to reach the casting value.

    5) Know the risk of miscast depending on the amount of dice. I'd wager that you'll likely want to know this when using 4,5 and 6 dice.

    6) Dont mindlessly risk your unit for a small augment/hex. Every once in a while you'll find yourself able to only use one spell and that one spell might have a casting value of 5-7. Spending 4+ dice on that is dumb and at times better just not to do (if your opponent have 6 dice left). You don't want to risk blowing up because of iceshard blizzard.

    7) Earthing Rod from the BRB allow you to reroll on the miscast table.

    8) I believe the Power Scroll now half the casting value, allowing you to cast 1 spell with a high value easier.

    9) I'm not sure if scroll of shielding have been changed to also protect against miscasts, I'm guessing no.

    To further secure yourself you have the following options:

    10) Slann with Wandering Deliberation + Book of ashur. You can now effectively 2 dice most spells and some spells you can risk with one dice. You can obviously always get a miscast on 2 dice, but that's rather unfortunate.

    11) Slann + Tetto'Eko with low casting value lore OR WD. Rerolling 1s is a very powerful combination since most of the time you'll risk getting broken concentration and Tetto almost eliminates that.

    12) The ultimative combination - combine 7 and 8 you can for sure cast you signature spells with no risk at all. Unless you use one dice and roll a 2. ._____.

    Moving away from the guards:

    13) A slann can still move about in a skink unit and gain Look Out Sir.

    14) Going Etheral although watch out for flying characters with magic weapons, runed cannons or getting charged by a unit due to static combat res.
     
    NIGHTBRINGER likes this.
  20. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,691
    Likes Received:
    822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This actually isn't wrong. What I mean is that we have to accept that our templeguards aren't exactly equal to many of our opponents elite units. Hold them back and swoop in late in the game to more reliantly finish off stuff like white lions and so on.
     

Share This Page