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AoS Realmshaper Engine - Let's Crack It!

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by RandomTsar, Mar 22, 2020.

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Do you think the Realmshaper Engine is Better Served as a Defnesive Feature or Offensive one?

  1. Defensive

    5 vote(s)
    13.9%
  2. Offensive

    4 vote(s)
    11.1%
  3. Somewhere In between/Situational

    27 vote(s)
    75.0%
  1. RandomTsar
    Saurus

    RandomTsar Active Member

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    RealmshaperEngine.jpg
    Realmshaper Engine

    Hey, everyone, I wanted to make this post to help discuss our terrain feature and what might be the best use case of it. Based on the rules and size of it, I don't think it's a simple kind of tactic.

    To get started here are some helpful topics.

    Realmshaper Rules
    Seraphon Battletome Pg: 62 & 63

    Placement rules from battletome:
    "When you choose a Seraphon army, you can include 1 REALMSHAPER ENGINE terrain feature (pg 63). When terrain is set up for the battle, any REALMSHAPER ENGINE terrain features must be set up by the player whose army they are a part of, before any other terrain features are set up, more than 6" from any objectives and more than 6" from the edge of the battlefield. Set up the rest of the terrain as described in the core rules. If both players can set up terrain features before other terrain features are set up, the players must roll off and the winner chooses who sets up their terrain features first."

    Tournament Rulings:
    *Nothing official yet, if you are a tournament organizer/attendee please share what tournament and what the decision for this terrain feature was/will be.

    GW Link:
    https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Seraphon-Realmshaper-Engine-2020

    GW Link to warscroll:
    https://www.games-workshop.com/reso.../Seraphon_warscroll_Realmshaper-Engine-en.pdf

    Garrison & Cover Rules
    Core Rule Book Pg:
    Garrison Pg: 10
    "Some terrain features can be garrisoned by units. When this is the case, it will be noted on the warscroll for the terrain feature.

    A unit can be set up as a garrison at the start of a battle if the terrain feature is wholly within the unit’s territory. Alternatively, a unit can garrison a terrain feature instead of making a normal move if all of its models are within 6" of the terrain feature, and there are no enemy models within 3" of the terrain feature or already garrisoning it.

    Units that garrison a terrain feature are removed from the battlefield and are assumed to be ‘inside’ the terrain feature. Units must treat a terrain feature garrisoned by the enemy as if it were an enemy model.

    The range and visibility to or from a garrisoning unit is determined to or from the terrain feature instead. A garrisoning model can attack and be attacked, cast or unbind spells, and use abilities, but cannot move. A garrisoning unit counts as being in cover if it is attacked. In addition, subtract 1 from the hit rolls of attacks made against a garrisoning unit.

    A garrisoning unit can leave in your movement phase. When it does, set it up so that all models from the unit are within 6" of the terrain feature and more than 3" from any enemy units. This counts as their move for that movement phase.

    Many terrain features that can be garrisoned include flat areas upon which models can stand. Only garrisoning models can be placed or moved onto the flat areas (other models that can fly can move over flat areas but cannot finish a move or be placed on that area unless they are part of the garrison). Doing so is purely decorative; these models are still treated as garrisoning the terrain feature for rules purposes. "

    Cover Pg: 7
    "Add 1 to save rolls for a unit if all of its models are wholly on or within a terrain feature when the rolls are made. This modifier does not apply in the combat phase if the unit you are making save rolls for made a charge move in the same turn, and never applies to units containing models with the Monster or War Machine keyword that have a Wounds characteristic of 8 or more. "

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjABegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0fGS3Yp5nwG6D-UKVVilsZ

    Dimensions of Terrain Feature
    Foot Print: 6" by 6"
    Other Dimensions for Proxies
    Total Height: ~7" (magical energy bits make it variable)
    Each slab: 1" tall, 1/4" offset for slant, 1/4" offset for next slab. Slab 1: 6x6, Slab 2: 5x5, Slab 3: 4x4, Slab 4: 3x3Thick
    Snake Idols: 1.75" Tall, .75" Long, .25" Thick
    Portal: .5" Thick, 2.5" Diameter

    (*Disclaimer I do not actually own one, so the dimensions may vary slightly BUT dimensions are from trusted measurements and images comparisons*)

    With a 6"x6" area, we have a substantial mass we get to utilize to disrupt the board and potentially dish out mortal wounds. A few things come into play we'll know the deployments before placing it but not which side we'll be on and we do not know what other terrain will be on the board.

    Every time we place it we will need to think of it as both offensively and defensively.
    The best position for if we get it, or the best position to disrupt the Opponents deployment.

    I hope to fill out this post and the next two with the best-suggested use case/deployment of our terrain feature depending on Aggressive and Defensive strategies for each battlefield deployment type.

    If anyone has already gotten experience with the Realmshaper Engine please share your feedback!
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  2. RandomTsar
    Saurus

    RandomTsar Active Member

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    In general here are the tactics I've picked up from the thread. What are your thoughts (opposition or otherwise) for each one? I'll edit the OP to include them.

    (When referencing them might help to include the number)
    General Tactic Ideas
    1. LoS blocking, based on scenario and opponent place terrain in such a way that will cause your opponent to adjust their deployment and first turn moves ie middle between two zones - Goal would be to try and move units behind it to increase turns without shooting
    2. Plan to place it mostly in a starting deployment zone, with just enough out to make an opponent not auto Garrison it. Make them spend a movement getting in. Same for us though
    3. Depending on how your game group tackles the scenario rules, plan to bring an 'Arcane Ruins' as your primary terrain. Setup the two terrain pieces on opposite deployment zones, causing your opponent to choose which bonus to give you (and with our bonus rules we shouldn't be affected by their negative primary terrains)
    4. Place the piece in such a way to limit the deployment in the backlines, to the point where you leave enough for a wizard to LoST behind it (using the large base size and LoS to ensure your wizard can get in next turn)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From our further discussion, the placement is very dependant on your list, as well as your opponents. To help the communication and planning of strategies I have mapped out all of the matched play battle plans, with an accompanying scaled terrain block. Use your photo editor of choice to help plot our terrain pieces placement.

    I mostly play on a half board due to size limitations, so I included an appropriately scaled version for that as well.

    AOS Battle Plan Layouts GHB2019 Standard Table Scaling - 4by6.png

    Above is the standard 4by6 board,
    • BLUE/RED: indicates deployment zones,
    • WHITE: indicates middle ground lines and territory lines when applicable to the scenario
    • GREEN: indicates objectives range of capture (with a 1" sq representing a potential marker), secondary rings indicate that the range of capture is different however this does not affect the minimum range we can place our terrain feature (6")
    • ORANGE: indicates the distance from the table edge that we are allowed to place our terrain feature (6")
    • PINK: indicates our terrain feature footprint.
    Note: You will notice two grids in the background, I set it so the larger grid is 5" and the smaller grid is 1" this should help you when counting distances/calculating moves.

    Below is the same image, however it is scaled correctly for a 3by4 board. Deployment zones, objectives & their control radius, territory restriction, and terrain piece distances have been scaled based on the ratio of 1.5. This was agreed on by my game group to help scale our games. the 1.5 was gathered by finding the ratio between our long table edge by a standard board (6/4 = 1.5 [prettier math & measurements this way] vs short, 4/3=1.333). Measurements were determined by "standard-measurement" / "ratio" (6/1.5=4 ie of foot-long edge, and objective control radius).

    Note: This time I actually went through and made the measurements 100% accurate to eliminate guesswork and rounding errors)

    AOS Battle Plan Layouts GHB2019 Approx Half Table Scaling - 3by4.png

    Note for the fellow hardcore nerds (like me) I made this in AutoCAD, using some smarts you can get a student version and should be able to view and manipulate the file in there. Let me know if you are interested in the .dwg format file.

    Reposted on page 1 from page 6 & 7.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
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  3. RandomTsar
    Saurus

    RandomTsar Active Member

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    Reserved.

    Should be Good to Post!
     
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  4. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    All they needed to do to make it a great thing was to make it independent from caster, so you wouldn't care where to place it. Even if GHB rules overrides the battletome, and you can place it after you decide the territories, you'll most likely just won't have a place for it because of its size.

    It is such a shame that ours only new model is complete trash from matched play perspective.
     
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  5. Alladin the Paladin
    Chameleon Skink

    Alladin the Paladin Well-Known Member

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    I am working under the assumption that it will be FAQ’d to either:

    1) be placed after territories are decided
    2) garrisoned only by friendly Seraphon units
    3) both 1) & 2)

    In which case, I think it has amazing utility as a defensive structure with some passive offence.

    I think I disagree with the assessment above; I think you will always be able to find a place if you play most standard battleplans and if you are not playing on a fully thematic board that is covered end to end with scenery.

    1) It has amazing LoS blocking. The utility of this may depend greatly from opponent to opponent and list to list, but you can hide from things like Jezzails, Longstrikes, Ballistas, etc.
    2) It has really good passive garrison benefits. Even if you don’t plan on tanking in place, most of the units you would garrison don’t have huge moves, so assuming you can place it at the edge of your deployment, and you garrison them Turn 1 to boost their survivability, you can shunt them up and not really lose a lot of mobility (and potentially gain up to 6” since you can ungarrison on either corner of the model.
    3) It is a huge disruptor for charges and enemy movement if you have a back-field set up (e.g. Kroak with Astro and some guard, raining death up the field with an Oracle or other priest.
    4) it’s zero points. I actually dislike this aspect of faction terrain, but since most people take them, why not us?
     
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  6. Blitzkriyg
    Chameleon Skink

    Blitzkriyg Well-Known Member

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    Exactly this, hell give it a bonus if it's garrisoned by a priest or wizard, but it should be able to work unmanned, it's too much of a liability at this stage
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
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  7. Carnikang
    Stegadon

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    One thing I've been thinking about the engine is the possiblity to bait the enemy to take the deployment zone you dont want.

    You could even place it about 5"-6" away from the deployment zone, or directly inside the deployment zone, but with half of the engine outside the zone (meaning they cannot deploy in the Garrison).
    This will make the opponent think about using the feature to disrupt a possible plan you might have, or use the benefit of an in built Garrison. Use this to your advantage. If they don't bite, well, now you've got your engine to use now, despite being on the side you may not want.

    We have to still think ahead of the curve with our tools, and even if they do not change a thing about it, I'm okay with it not being absolutely the best. It's free terrain for our faction.
     
  8. RandomTsar
    Saurus

    RandomTsar Active Member

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    Oh my that typing error in the question is just going to drive me mad lol. Serves me right for adding something last minute (been writing the post up for a few days to minimize errors and double my words).... Oh well.

    That's an excellent point on the placement of the terrain! I hadn't thought about deploying it partially to ensure others couldn't auto Garrison it. Not too mention if the enemy spends models occupying it in case we get it, those are less models for us to worry about in the long run.
     
  9. ILKAIN
    Skink Chief

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    you didn't make a "useless competitively until they FAQ that only Seraphon can garrison in it" option... which is where my vote goes.
     
  10. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    two possible ideas:

    if your opponent places the terrain of his army, you field the RE on the opposite side: if he wants to negate you the pyramid, he will lose his own terrain.

    With Dracothion's tail: place the RE in the middle: LoSaT the Slann in it, call from reserves a Dread Saurian near the pyramid: now you rule the center of the board with a 35 wounds monster which got immunity to spells on a 4+
     
  11. ILKAIN
    Skink Chief

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    you cannot losat into garrison. you would have to losat to within 6" at the END of the movement phase, meaning you cant garrison until turn two. and if you don't losat to within 3" and the opponent gets a double turn....
     
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  12. Blitzkriyg
    Chameleon Skink

    Blitzkriyg Well-Known Member

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    The problem is the only other terrain this effects is the obr one, which they will probably place in the middle and don't need someone to activate it, so he gets your terrain and their terrain.
     
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  13. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Ah, good point

    I was thinking to terrains as Khorne skull altar, which must be used only by khorne nearby priests.

    Unless that is a terrain that must be placed in khorne's territory, and so it would be placed after our RE. Don't recall it.
     
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  14. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    You know what?
    I've got a use that could work.

    you place it before any other terrain, so:
    place it on a side of the battlefield.
    then place an arcane terrain (+1 to cast / dispel) on the opposite side, at less than 36" from the RE.
    if the opponent chooses the battlefield's side, he's now forced to let you have the Realmshape, or to concede you a further +1 to cast / dispel.

    and if he wants to have the arcane terrain, you can bombard it with the Realmshape with a 4+. It's a win-win.
     
  15. ILKAIN
    Skink Chief

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    shit put it at 18" lol. Might as well get the bonus if that's the plan
     
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  16. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    Wait, but aren't terrain effects determined randomly?
     
  17. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Only if the terrain doesn't have a warscroll.
    Just pick an arcane ruin. ;)
     
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  18. Jason839
    Ripperdactil

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    I’m of the opinion that it’s going to be on tournament organizers to errata the rules for this thing.
     
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  19. ravagekitteh
    Carnasaur

    ravagekitteh Well-Known Member

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    According to the Battletome:
    “After territories have been chosen but before armies have been set up, you can set up the Skull Altar for your army. The Skull Altar must be set up wholly within your territory and more than 1” from any terrain features. If both players can set up any terrain features before armies are set up, they must roll off, and the winner chooses who sets up their terrain first”
    I don’t see why we couldn’t have that rule. Hoping your opponent doesn’t realise they can garrison it too will only ever really work one battle tops, and never in tournaments :meh:

    On a side note, the name of this thread can’t help but remind me of this:



    :p
     
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  20. Carnikang
    Stegadon

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    Competitive games are all about mind games and doing your best to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses. A huge piece of terrain blocking an avenue or taking up a large portion of the board is something only one other army does.

    Again, it's a free bonus, why wouldn't you take it? The ability for your opponent to go into it is a wonderful bait to force them to make decisions. This is exactly what you want in a competitive environment.

    I know I'll be taking it ever game and experimenting with it. I've got a DoK player who's a monster to deal with, and I think I have a way to use this against him. That and an Idoneth player.....
     

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