Salamanders 101 1.1 First impression This is the second article I’ve written on this forum (produced from a combination of boredom and sickness), in which I will discuss salamanders and their uses. When I first opened the book and read about the rule changes for salamanders I pretty much discarded them, as I found them expensive and far less efficient than they used to be. Razordons where very similar to the old version, but their shooting efficiency is 50% of the old salamanders for about the same point costs. When I discussed it with some mates they made a note of that their minimum size is 1 sally pack , which could be a cheap “trash” unit that can cause some random panic tests. At first I was very skeptic to their use as panic causers, as there are so many high LD armies and immune to psych armies out their now, but I completely overlooked their damage potential. It wasn’t until playing with and against the hydra I realized the damage potential of a breath weapon, and imo salamanders main role is a pure damage dealer. 1.2 The Panic Causers A salamander can be a very efficient panic causer. 1 casualty results in a panic test which means 90% of any decent hits will cause panic. The Flame Template is also very wide and when aimed right it has the potential of hitting at least 2 units on most of your shots (depending on how packed your opponents units are). If your goal is to cause panic and not do damage you should always aim the flame in a direction where it has the highest chance of hitting multiple targets. Many armies are stuck at LD9 which means a 17% chance of panicking a unit (9% if they are at LD 10), if you hit 2 units per turn for 4 turns (range and misfire often prevents you from getting more shots off) you will cause 1.36 failed panic tests at LD 9, 0.72 at LD10 and 2.24 at LD8. When you play two salamanders flaming away for an entire game they should be causing between 1.44 and 4.48 panic tests, which in turn can cause more panic tests by running through units, which can be incredibly effective. The Salamander packs have great synergy with Terradons. A failed panic test is often pretty harmless if they have musician as they will just rally in their turn, which isn’t a huge deal considering you most likely won’t cause more than 1 failed panic test per sallie per game. A failed panic test when 3+ terradons standing behind them kills them instantly, which is huge. Insta-gibbing 1 unit per sallie+terradon combo per game is pretty awesome. The thread of getting auto-destroyed can have a big impact on the game, when you flame your opponents 300+ point main unit with 1-2 characters in he is forced to spend a lot of fire power, magic and units which could have been devastating if it was directed against your other units. When trying to use your salamanders for panic you got to adapt to what you are playing against. Here is a summary of when panic causing can be a good main role for salamanders, with the enemys highest possible LD in parenthesis: Good Panic Targets: Beasts of Chaos (8, 9 with Doombull), Empire (9), Orcs And Goblins (9), So-so Panic Targets: Dark Elves (10), High Elves (10), Bretonnia (9), Dwarves (10), Lizardmen (9), Skaven (7+3) Very Bad / Useless Panic Targets: Daemons, Warriors of Chaos (9), Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms (9), Wood Elves (10) As you can clearly see most armies are very resilient to panic, either due to high LD, lots of ITP or units that has a good/decent chance of taking 0 wounds from a sallie flame. Panic causing should be a secondary bonus most of the time, not their primary use. 1.3 Wrecking havoc Lizardmen has few units that can do damage at long range and Salamanders are no exception. Salamanders is the unit that has the longest possible range with 10” artillery dice + 8” template + 6” move, coming to a maximum possible range of 22”. Their efficient range however is around 14” (move included). A good range for a salamander is around 6-8” from your target (unless the target huge, like 5x10 models, in which case you want to be closer). If you stand at 8” you will always hit at least a couple of models, often causing at least 1 casualty, no matter what the artillery dice shows (not counting misfire of course), and get a good hit on a roll of 2-8. Below you can see how many hits you score on a unit of 20x 20mm base models from 8” away from the side of the unit. Keep in mind that the exact position of the sallie effects the hits, so this isn’t whats gonna happened every time you shoot, this is just to give you a rough guideline of what to expect: 2: 4 hits, 8 partial hits 4: 9 hits, 11 partial hits 6: 4 hits, 12 partial hits 8: 10 partial hits 10: 6 partial hits The average amount of hits is 8.1 hits, resulting in 4 casualties on average against T3, and a perfect hit (a roll of 4 in this case) should kill 7.25 T3 models. A single flame into a big block of elite infantry will earn the entire point cost for the salamander back. -3 armor save will negate almost every infantry unit to 0 (White Lions being the only exception I can think of) and most cav units to 4+. Salamanders are 80pt models and with the possibility to marsh 12”. The low point cost of the salamander means that you can sacrifice it without losing many VPs. Cheap and fast units are perfect harassers. Unlike the razordons you can take flee as a charge reaction. If you park your salamander 1” from your opponent (see picture) he doesn’t have room to wheel or move, and charging means his center runs towards your salamanders centrum, leaving him with his flank open to counter charges. Example: The salamanders place themselves 1” from a unit of 18 Executioners and some Cold One Cavalry are positioned themselves for a flank charge. The enemy has to choose between backing 2.5”, in which case you can just move the salamander 2.5” forward, stand still, in which case you can shoot them to bits or outmaneuver them with another unit, or charge your salamander, in which case you should look at the next picture. http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af263/erians/1.jpg The executioners charge the salamander, which flees. If you roll too low your salamander will die, but it is well worth it to make a 200+ pt unit show his flank. The Executioners move 4/8” forward and get flanked by the CoC. A 80 point salamander can force a 300 pts elite block to stand still and get shot to bits or at least be immobilized, or charge and die. Either way you win. http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af263/erians/2.jpg 1.5 Salamanders vs Razordons Salamanders are more popular and generally considered a far more competitive choice than the razordons. Both units have their strengths and weaknesses and I’ll try to do a fair comparison. They only really have one ability that they share; damage dealing. While the razordon does the same damage to all unit sized the salamander performs very differently against different base sizes and formations. A razordon does 6 shots on average (not counting misfire as we didn’t count it for salamanders), scoring 3 hits on any non-skirmisher, 2 wounds on T3 and 0.67 save if they have 4+ save against ranged attacks. Against ranked 20mm T3 with 4+ save: Sallies = 4 kills Razordons = 1.33 kills. That is however the ideal salamander target. If we compare it to T4 with no save (salamanders worst infantry target) Razordon scores 1.5 kills while salamanders does 2.7, still better. Against T3 skirmishers razordons score 1.33 kills, while a salamander should probably score around 4 partial hits resulting in 1 kill. Against fast cav with T3 and 5+ save the razordon scores 1.5 wounds, 1.25 kills. The salamander kills 0.75 guys from the front on average (average is 3 partial hits), and 1 kill if you shoot from the side (4 partial hits on avarage). Here is a summary of Razordons vs Salamanders. Razordons: + Doesn’t rely on its position as much, score the same average of hits either way + Gets a Stand and Shoot reaction, at twice efficiency + Doesn’t rely on the enemies base sizes + Longest reliable range in the Lizardmen army (12”+6”) and does the same damage at all ranges - Cant flee as a charge reaction, and can therefore never be a decent harasser - Has 33% of misfiring on its stand and shoot, which means 0 shots are fired - Has to stand and shoot even if the enemy is too close to allow a stand and shoot reaction (which means the razordon is forced to hold - Deals much less damage against infantry, and only slightly more against cav / skirmishers - No save modifier which means most units gets a save roll Salamander: + Almost always cause a panic test + Amazing damage dealer against infantry + Huge armor save modifier + Good harassing unit + Can flee as a charge + Very good synergy with terradons + High "threat factor", as rightly placed panic tests can completly decide a games outcome, even if the chance of panicking a unit is usually only 7-17% most generals will go out of their way to prevent it - Damage relies on base sizes and positioning - Random and unreliable fire if the salamander is positioned wrong, still very random even if positioned correctly (even tho it always scores a few partial hits) - Short range (8”) if you want efficient shots If anyone wants to add something or disagree with something that is written, just reply and I will include your perspective in the article. And if anyone knows how to make the pictures show in the thread, plz tell me, it keeps telling me that my pics are more than 1 pixel wide and cant be shown
Just to further clarify, 80 points refers to the 75 point salamander and an extra handler. Extra handlers are always good to prevent your salamander from eating all his skinks in one turn Also, I wouldn't totally disregard salamanders in a fight even against the "very bad" category. The attacks are flaming right? They might have taken that out, but that should negate regeneration right? I've used a salmander once in a 1000 point game against skaven and it wiped out a rank of stormvermin and sent them, and their warlord, fleeing off the table! On the first turn that pretty much means game. I plan on running 2 packs of 1 salamander at 1500 once I get the second model painted up. Don't forget that they cause fear too! And they are unit strength 5 (depending on number of handlers) so they can take away flanks. Their speed makes them good for tackling skirmishers as well. Salamanders are a model, like all lizardmen units, which has a very particular skill set. It's a very good support unit; however, if you treat it like a hellcannon (mwah! eat up your unit!) then you'll probably lose it. But if you only charge after skirmishers or into a combat which you have clearly won then they will serve you well (unless they eat all their skinks... ). Haha, just be ready for that one... it'll happen to sooner or later Erians: Great tactic for using your salamander as a redirector! My warhammer 40k buddies are putting together Dark Elves (probably two hydra's and all sorts of other powerful units...) and an Empire gunline. So, even though I'm not sure I'll be able to use that tactic very often, it certainly sounds good to me!
If possible, I think you should add in a most effective unit size. As both razordons and salamanders can have up to three per unit what is the most beneficial size to take? Multiple Salamanders in units of one provide a greater number of panic checks as they can target multiple units, and, as you have pointed out in the article, there is a 90% chance to cause a tests. On the flip side you would not cause as much pure damage as a unit of three all firing at one target. Razordons are a little simpler, more razordons means more shots. Period. This is probably heavily influenced by personal taste but I would like to see some numbers being crunched on the relations between number of modles, number of hits/wounds, and number of eaten skinks. *edit* I would do it myself but I'm not to sure about my own mathematical abilities.
Correct, 80 pts include a handler. The "very bad" category is only for panic tests, the damage salamanders can do is always useful, while the panic bonus effectivness can vary. And yes, the attacks are flaming making them ok vs VC units with the regeneration flag (tho Spirit of the Forge is still a better way to kill a black knight bus with regen). They are indeed US5, which means that they get the +1/+2 combat resolution from charging a front or rear, but they are skrimishers so they dont remove ranks. Personally I recommend getting in to combat as an absolute last resort, 2 S5 attacks isnt that great and they are only T4. The article is only about how to use salamanders if you take them, not how to take them as its much about personal preference, how many rare slots you have and how many pts you have left. The ideal set up is however imo 1 salamander or 1 razordon per unit, so 2 units of 1 sallie / razor is great. Taking more than 1 pack per unit makes the unit expensive and much less expendable. The pure damage of 3 salamanders targeting the same unit is not as good as one might think at first. Each salamander is rolled for seperatly when a unit of 3 salamanders shoots at a target, so the casulties the first & second cause means less hits for the 2nd and 3rd. This is another strong reason to take units of 1, as 1x2 salamanders firing at 1 unit each will do more damage per shot than 2-3 salamanders firing at the same target. About skinks being eaten, you should roll 1 misfire if you fire your salamanders once every turn, and every misfire eats an avarage of 2 skinks. In a game every salamander should shoot around 4 times at best, which means an avarage of 0,66 misfires, which results in an avarage of 1.3 eaten skinks per game per salamander.
Are they skirmishers? The FAQ says their unit strength 3, not 1, so they don't get -1 to being shot. I realize this doesn't address the skirmisher rules, but if they were skirmishers they would -1 to being shot on top of that. I mean... I'd rather them be skirmishers than be able to take away ranks but I'm not sure that happens. Are cannons skirmishers? Are hydras?
If you read the salamander entry on page 56 you can see that they are indeed skirmishers. Hydras are also skrimishers, but when they charge they loose their skirmish rule and counts as a monster (idiotic...). Only skirmishers with US 1 gets the -1 to hit penalty, so the salamanders are Skirmishers in every aspect except that you don't get -1 to hit them when shooting at them. Cannons are not skirmishers, they are war machines, but if you destroy the cannon the crew moves like skirmishers .
hydras only move like skirmishers because of the monster and handlers rule, unlike salamanders who are skirmishers 100% alltough it would be nice to have the same rules for our hunting packs
I just want to take a moment to thank you for the guide. I had already chosen Salamanders for my main list, despite the Razordon models looking so much better in my opinion, because of the panic test. The possibility of a chain reaction is always grand and I am sure we all know how badly those dice can fail us at times.
I definitely agree with you that Salamanders>Razadons simply due to the "must stand and shoot" special rule. I will definitely be taking 2 lone Salamanders in my list.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I always take 2 single salamanders nowadays and they very rarely dissapoint me. Seems like most people play at least 1 salamander these days (at least at the competative tournament scene). Ive also heard a rumor that in 8th edition all template weapons will be hitting everything they touch, not more partial hits. I don't have a reliable source but it seems lots of people think its true, which would make salamanders much more powerful (should kill around 10-12 models with a good hit, depending on the targets unit size!). This does sound slightly overpowered, but who knows, it would certainly make template weapons MUCH easier to use and determing the amount of whole hits and partial hits.
Top stuff erians. I've also heard that rumour somewhere...hmm..Would love to see it! Are you going on with all the units in the army? The Hunted
One thing woth mentioning about Razordons, Is that they greatly outperform Salamanders when shooting at a small elete unit or single models, they will do multiple wounds per model where slamanders can only do one wound per target model. Something to think about when facing MSU armies. also it is often dificult to place the template aginst smaller targets.
Very true, which is why i mentioned it in the discussion, under "+Doesnt rely on enemy base or unit size" for the razordons. The thing is tho that skinks are amazing single target killers, far better than razordons, while there are no other shooting units in the LM army that performs as well as salamanders against big blocks of ranked infantry. I dont think I'll have the time or energy to do all the units, especially since most are pretty self-explanatory, I just had some spare time and figured I'd share my thoughts on the salamanders. I might consider doing one on terradons if I get around to it.
you know... all those rumors about no partials in 8th started from teh no partials in teh skaven book wich some poeple find overpowered. i'd at least wait for the beastmen book to see if thats the same case there (they should have AT LEAST 1 template waepon). i don't find the skaven no partials overpowered as all their templates are either: a) ridiculously unsafe (a missfire means destroyed 5/6 times) or b) very weak (pestilent breath and plague claw catapult inflict S2 hits and the mortar only wounds on a 5+)
I agree that the skaven weapons aren't overpowered because they are designed with the "everything touched is hit" rule in mind, while salamanders are balanced around the partial hit system. If that system would change it would make the breath weapons from other lists than skaven very good, the hydras S5 breath could easily kill 15+ T3 guys.
huh, I had origonally thought that I would prefer Razordons to Salimanders because (though they have their drawbacks) they seemed like a better shooting unit than a salimander choice. But now after reading the article I might make a switch. It seems that some further purchases and play testing is in order.
Glad the article could be of some help. This was pretty much the same first impression I got when I opened the book before play testing them but they can really wreck some havoc. I also discover new synergies every now and then by playing them that I never thought about before. I played a game the other night and picked Lore of Fire on my Slann instead of Metal which I usually play, and discovered some great synergy with the Salamanders. Casting Wall of Fire on a unit then flaming it with salamanders can be very effecient, if they fail a panic test the entire unit takes a S4 hit, so on top of the flame damage you can kill several models with the wall as well. I played my good friends Orc & Goblins list the other night and he played his usual offensive Wyvern Black orc Warboss list (lots of war machines, a big unit of Black orcs, a big unit of Big uns with 2nd weapon and butchery banner, medium sized squigg herd, some boyz units, some fanatic goblin units and several chariots). His wyvern flew down my flank to threaten my ranked saurus units and was more than 12" away from most of his units. In my magic phase I threw a Wall of Fire on a 25 unit of Boyz (worth around 380 pts with a black orc BSB with +DD flag in it). The spell kills 3 orcs getting them down to 22, the salamander flame them killing another 4 and they fail their panic test and takes 18 (!) S4 hits, killing another 7 orcs. I did roll above avarage on the fire wall so 10 orcs isnt exactly avarage, but the WoF + Salamander combo is not to be underestimated. Even at LD9 you have a 17% chance of getting this combo to work, which means if you cast WoF and flame with sallies every turn you should force at least 1 panic test and thus a ton of S4 hits from the wall. Now this trick is harldy game changing, but it is pretty neat and can really surprise a lot of opponents. Another spell that has great synergy with salamanders are "Doom and Darkness", which means panic tests at -3 !
Yes. Doom and Darkness is as epic spell, particularly when we have a "take a test" unit like Salamanders. When I'm not against ItP armies I pretty much always go Death with my Slann (otherwise Metal for the Bane Head + Burning Iron combo on a 2+ armour BSB). I can see Wall of Fire being pretty ok. But its doing a job that a unit of Terradons behind the enemy does alot better.
Very true, you much rather wipe the unit than just cause a ton of S4 hits. On the other hand its much easier to have a Slann within 24" range than it is to have a unit of terradons behind enemy lines. Lets say you face a Dark elf player with 2 RBTs. If you fly the terradons behind a unit and panic it you have 17% chance of wiping that unit, while 2 RBTs should do 5-6 wounds on the terradons, so its much better to combine the sallies with WoF which carries no risk instead of sacrificing a unit of terradons for a 1/6 shot to insta-gib a unit. Terradons can always be combined with doom and darkness tho, unlike WoF. Fly salamanders behind an expensive enemy unit, cast doom and darkness in your magic phase and panic with the salamanders. This will take a LD 9 test (17% to fail) to a LD6 test (59% to fail), a very good chance of instantly killing any non ITP units. Even against LD10 there is a 42% chance that your opponent fails his test and dies.