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7th Ed. sallies firing into close combat

Discussion in 'Rules Help' started by lupercal, May 3, 2009.

  1. lupercal
    Kroxigor

    lupercal New Member

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    i know it is kinda cheesy but can you lob fire into close combat "accidentally" by aiming in such a way that it might overshoot and hit a unit in close combat like mortars and catapults and if so do you randomize or would it just be what is under the template
     
  2. ACe
    Saurus

    ACe New Member

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    You can do that and in my opinion templates hit what ever is under them.
     
  3. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart Well-Known Member

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    I think cannons can do the same thing too. It is completely legal, but not really recommended, one of those 'you can do it, but you shouldn't try' like a cannon hitting something it can't see or declaring a challenge against something when you know you are out of range.

    I don't see why the attack would work different to any other time, any model under the template is hurt, those not near the template are fine.
     
  4. ACe
    Saurus

    ACe New Member

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    I think it's not even bad with sallies, cuz they random their range, but for example you could fire a flame cannon at an enemy 2 inches away and guess 12''...then accidentally hit the unit behind it even when you wouldn't see it.
     
  5. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Yep, models in combat hit with a template are treated the same as normal.
     
  6. kroxigor01
    Ripperdactil

    kroxigor01 Member

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    You can, but its generally considered bad form to "accidentally" hit the wrong unit. This doesn't stop most people though.

    For instance, I was playing a game against an Empire army and a Brettonian army with Chaos Dwarfs (it was a wierd campaign game) where I deployed in the middle of the board with the enemy armies on opposite table edges. My Lord on Great Taurus got into a combat with the Brets Lord on Peg on the Brets side of the board. In his turn, the Empire player fired at a Blunderbuss unit that was ~40" away but guessed 68" inches. The Cannon ball sailed over the Blunderbuss unit, over a hill and into the combat between my Lord and the Bret Lord, scoring hits on both the riders! Fortunately my lord had the Armour of the Furnace and passed his ward save. The Bret Lord failed his ward, but unfortunately he had the Gilded Cuirass and passed his regeneration save. All those bounce rolls, randomization rolls and save rolls and nothing happened!
     
  7. blackhawk
    Chameleon Skink

    blackhawk Member

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    no you can't do that.

    you must always guess a more likeble range. just like charging.
    if you have a movement of 4" and there is a fleeing unit 15" away, you can't charge it s it would flee further, becouse it is abvious you can't reach them.
    this is the same with guessing.

    so a unit 2" infront of sallies must be guessed 1" or so. ( it depends on how wide the unit is)

    and you can always look at the mini's on the table to compare therange with ( a 9 strong bret lance is for example 6" wide) and so can be used as some sort of measurement...)

    but ind if your sallies score a 10 on he artillery dice or so, then yeah, other units will be hit ( or nothing)
     
  8. Sammy the Squib
    Salamander

    Sammy the Squib Member

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    You need to play in the spirit of the game. Just cos the rules allow you to do something, does not mean you should. People who do stuff like that have forgotten what the game is all about
     
  9. ACe
    Saurus

    ACe New Member

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    Agreed
     
  10. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart Well-Known Member

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    Eh, I think you missed what ACe was saying a bit. It can be done with the flame cannon, but isn't recommended. In the case of the salamander, there is no guessing done, so really it is random whether it hits a dodgy target or not. Sure you can choose to point it at a unit 2" away with the clear intent of overshooting into a unit behind them, but it is going to be up to the dice. Should you not be allowed to target something that has another unit behind them for fear of the random range? I don't think so.
     
  11. Scarloc
    Chameleon Skink

    Scarloc New Member

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    In the previous edition my scaven playing friend had ratling guns and they can only flee as a charge reaction. He had to stop playing them as the first turn each round an opponent he played declared a charge on them even though they were no where in range. It is poor sportsmanship but completely legal.
     
  12. Corbechev
    Saurus

    Corbechev New Member

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    that is rather silly, shouldn't you only have to declare a charge reaction if the charge is within range?
     
  13. Scarloc
    Chameleon Skink

    Scarloc New Member

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    Nope, you can stand and shoot even if a charge fails. Same with the other responses.
     
  14. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    First, I'm pretty sure ratling guns can stand and shoot. Jezzails and warmachine crew have to flee.

    Second, it in fact IS written in the rules that you are not allowed to declare a charge you know will fail. In the case of a first-turn charge, you do in fact KNOW that there is at least 24" of separation between the would-be charger and the target. The next time this happens, take one of those red bendy measurement sticks that GW puts in the Skull Pass set. Swing this at your opponent's hand each time he tries to declare a cheesy charge. If you are lucky, he will begin to associate the beyond cheesy rules-bending tactics he uses with a sensation of pain, and cease to exhibit such behaviors in the future.

    I also see no reason why you couldn't "generously" allow your opponent to pre-measure a charge against such unit if you are pretty sure he's out of range. Use the phrasing, "I'm so confident you will fail that charge, I will allow you the luxury of pre-measuring it". Once he measures it and proves it is short, he cannot legally declare the charge because he now knows it will fail.

    If such things don't work, you can also get in the habit of accidentally leaving your red-bendy measuring stick lying right in front of his likely charge targets. "Whoops, looks like I just helped you out on accident, now you know that charge will fail."

    Remember, once he "knows" it will fail (you both know all along), you are not allowed to declare it. Be creative!
     
  15. Scarloc
    Chameleon Skink

    Scarloc New Member

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    Ahh, I could not remember what gun it was that fled. Just some Scaven cheesball I can kill you thing.
     
  16. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart Well-Known Member

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    It is the warp lightning cannon that has to flee, someone suggested that to me a loooong time ago because in 6th ed, you are allowed to declare even if out of range, it came in a GW FAQ later on. I didn't use it though, since it is jammy, but as soon as an eagle or something did get closeish (second turn) I was more than happy to send that puppy fleeing.
     
  17. Quillum
    Saurus

    Quillum New Member

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    Just to add, or further ask a question about the original post for this particular thread....

    I thought that units engaged in close combat were assumed to be "entangled" like the whole thing turns into a bloody brawling mess...well, in a way...and that's why no shooting is done into a unit engaged in close combat. I'd likely play it the same way with my salamander, not targeting a unit that's in close combat already for fear of roasting my own soldiers.

    But then...maybe I'm too much of a sportsman, and thus, likely to be exploited myself.
     
  18. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the idea behind not being allowed to shoot into combat is the fear of hitting your own men, which Skaven can ignore since they don't care about their own men. It does seem strange to me, you can have one of your own units next to the path of a shot (not in combat) and only half an inch off your direct line to an enemy and still be able to shoot perfectly fine and have no chance of touching your own unit, even low BS models can shoot with that kind of precision. But when they are in combat.... Even in heavily one sided ones where you might only have one or two models and there are lots of enemies or the enemy is bigger, no chance of shooting them. But thats how it goes.

    You are partially correct that combat is meant to be somewhat 'entangled', but by the rules of the salamander... If you aim at a unit between you and the combat ,and your roll overshoots into the combat, only that which is directly under the template is hit so you can make it safe. It does need to be fairly well lined up for you to be able to do it though, and for you to get a high enough overshoot roll.
     
  19. Scarloc
    Chameleon Skink

    Scarloc New Member

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    In 40K I would say the units should be very entangled with the loose units but in fantasy with the blocks of troops and rank bonuses from the guys behind pushing forward I think you would end up with much more static combat lines.
     
  20. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Strangely, the book describes fantasy combats much the same way, that everyone is pretty well entangled and it is sort of a disorganized mass. Of course on the table, the models retain their marching formations at all times, so it is left to the imagination for hand to hand. The rules themselves are quite arbitrary with respect to this fluff view of disorganized units, especially considering the whole "only the front row may fight". If we're talking a big mass of combat, how would only the front five in the block be fighting?

    The real reason for the rule is of course game balance. The idea being to keep shooting slightly less effective so the focus remains hand to hand clashes.
     

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