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7th Ed. Sarts 2250 pts Lizzard list (Be gentle haha)

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Army Lists' started by Sart, Apr 7, 2009.

  1. Sart
    Saurus

    Sart New Member

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    The will of Fooq High Slaan of Thazlaaq

    Noq Hand of the Heavens
    Saurus Old Blood- Blade of Revered Tzunki, Glyph Necklace, Light Armour, Shield.

    Cliq Thalax Fist of Noq
    Saurus Scar-Vet- Enchanted Shield, Burning Blade of Chotec, Light Armour.

    Sliq Phlaq Herald of Noq
    Skink Chief- BSB, Cloak of Feathers, Sword of Might, Light Armour, Shield.

    Chaqax the Record Keeper
    Skink Priest- Dispel Scroll, Diadem of Power.
    Lvl 2, Ancient Stegadon with Engine of the Gods.

    Core

    14x Saurus warriors- Shield, Spear, Standard Musco.

    14x Saurus warriors- Shield, Spear, Standard Musco.

    11x Skinks- Jav, Shield, Musco, Skink Brave.
    1x Kroxigor.

    11x Skinks- Jav, Shield, Musco, Skink Brave.
    1x Kroxigor.

    10x Skink Skirmishers- Blowpipes.

    Special

    4x Terradons.

    3x Kroxigor.
    3x Kroxigor.

    Rare

    1x Salamander.
    4x Handlers

    1x Salamander.
    4x Handlers

    This army currently has 29 Wins 2 draws and 3 Losses under its belt vs Quality opponents.
    I find it very Flexible and forgiving. The 2x Saurus units are suprisingly resilient with a character in each (Cav fear them both with good reason) The whole army withstands shooty armies nicely due to its compact nature and the 5+ ward from the engine. I love the new salamanders and they have been devastating (I trialed Razordons and disliked them intensly rolling to hit is no fun) running them in 2x units of 1 makes them very hard to pin down. I created this list with giving my opponent a headache trying to get points form it and it has proven extremely succesful at doing that. And it is capable of savagry as well (People say Kroxi's now suck... I say 9 strength 6 attacks is still enough to smash most things off its feet).

    All thoughts welcome.

    Once the list is painted I will be taking it to its first Tourny (and mine in about a year) But the testing so far has been very positive.
     
  2. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart New Member

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    I think you have made a very common mistake that lots of new people made in character selection. Namely you have too many characters and too many points invested in them. The game is about armies, not characters.

    And more importantly, characters are about support and specific roles. You should decide what specifically you want a character to do, and what it will give to the army that a basic cheap unit cannot, and finally how it will go about doing that. What is your scar vet doing? Providing 3 strong attacks from the front of a saurus unit? Guess what? A saurus unit champion can provide 3 s4 attacks for the unit for a fraction of the price of that character. Sure they aren't as strong but they are faaar cheaper. Also, saurus with spears are a powerful unit that will get lots of good strength attacks, they have a high toughness and average armour, they are not a unit that needs the support of a character to perform. On the contrary, opponent units will need their own character to stand up to the saurus.

    Hmm in reterospect, I have just noticed your win loss record. Are you an advanced warhammer player, or is this your first list/army? That will have a big impact on the rest of my reply.
     
  3. Sart
    Saurus

    Sart New Member

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    LOL 21 Years in the hobby 15 of them playing lizardmen just because I havnt posted on here does not make me new but I can see how assumption could be made some of my comments make me sound new I should explain I am new by my standards to the new book.

    All my characters have a purpose every single last one of them are essential in making the list work.
    I think the stats of the saurus go to peoples head alot its not the strength or the armour or the toughness I look at its weapon skill. And Wpn skill 3 is poor, the wpn skill 5 on the scar-vet is the equalizer that can and does tip the balance and its 4 strength 5 attacks and toughness 5 (a dmge soaker as well he can mix it with the alot of the mellee characters without killing blow, Had him hold a treeman for 3 turns and take 4 wounds off it :bored: )

    I was a very accomplished Tourny Player with both Lizzards and my greenskins a year back (took a wee break as you do haha ) I have always played the game on 2 fronts taking points and refusal of points. Out of the two refusal is the key to success. This list has a wonderful spread of points with the bulk of the points in hard to kill characters it makes a tit for tat battle weigh heavily in my favor. :p

    Thanks for the comments I love seeing peoples pespectives on my lists it helps me see it at all angles.

    11 deplyments all up My army isnt small by any stretch of the imagination. But with a Lizardman army You want to be semi compact. Once you start spreading out your at the mercy of the less then solid leadership (Even with 3d6 leadership tests its still iffy besides the army works better as a cohesive force all the links in the chain supporting and covering the other not unlike a phalanx)
     
  4. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart New Member

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    It wasn't actually your post count that had me wondering, I never judge peopel on that, it was the bit in the title about "be gentle". :p Most people that say things like that are just starting out.

    I think you have gone very krox heavy, sure lots of s6 attacks are good but they are a lot of points and kinda fragile on their own being only t4 and monsters that will attract fire. I would switch one of the krox units for some cold ones, but that is just me.

    The more I read about salamanders the more I want to force something else out of my list to fit some in. I dislike the models, but it is true that neg 3 save under a template and auto panic tests is fantastic. Wish I could fit them in.

    I do not find the lower WS a big problem, against the majority of troops they are still going to hit on 4's, it is just characters that they might need 5's. Strength and number of attacks seem much more important stats to me, as with toughness. As soon as your toughness is 1 higher than your opponents strength they need 5's to wound you, which is only ~33%, and a strength of 4 reduces armour and wounds most troops on 3's.
     
  5. Sart
    Saurus

    Sart New Member

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    No the wpn skill 3 needing 4's to hit is Brutal 4's to hit can be the downfall of a must win combat momment (Had it happen all to man ytimes i nthe past) I have always utilised the Scar-vet/ Oldblood in a unit tactic and it hasnt let me down to date. But differnt strokes for differnt blokes as they say.

    I hope the Kroxigors attract Fire but sadly they wont the sallys and steg will cop most the attention (If im smart about it the Kroxi's (Flankers for the Saurus block) will have a 5+ ward vs shooting from the EOTG.

    I thought about Cav I just cant afford the stupidity factor stepping in and throwing my plans out of position (Hence why the characters are not on cold ones).

    Thanks for the comments again Appreciate them.

    (I said be gentle because In my old posting days I used to get flamed alot LOL)
     
  6. Sart
    Saurus

    Sart New Member

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    Any other thoughts on the list??
    Or is it the perfect list (Doubtful) :smug:
     
  7. DonkeyHotep
    Temple Guard

    DonkeyHotep New Member

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    Seems like the Krox in the units are being used as unit champions. I've seen some guy running his skinks that way with bizzare scratch built alligator Krox, but I've personally never seen the need. It seems that the plan there is to have a really menacing block of garbage that moves 6 and causes fear, but I personally find it less useful then, for example, 10 or 15 skinks, which is dirt cheap and easy to toss if I need to.

    The thing that stands out most to me is that flying skink BSB. I really have no clue what's up with that, maybe it's some genius plan with the march blocking, but I can't figure out why your army would heavily need march blocking.

    This list is nothing like the one I run, which is MAXX MAGIC.
     
  8. 123birds
    Skink

    123birds New Member

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    it sais "With EOTG and giant blowpipe" doesn't the EOTG replace the blowpipes
     
  9. DonkeyHotep
    Temple Guard

    DonkeyHotep New Member

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    That it does mate, that it does.
     
  10. Sart
    Saurus

    Sart New Member

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    Thanks for picking up a typo Stupid cut and paste lol
    Will fix it up LOL

    Other then spelling and grammatical errors got any thoughts.

    You go magic heavy but dont use the diadem?? Doesnt make much sense. Magic domination works 2 ways For instance vs a magic heavy chaos and undead list having overwhelming Magical defence is more important then having overwhelming offense.

    They kinda are those units are bait and roadblocks the Krox are in there for the leadership boost when rallying and to force non itp units take tests Movement 12 infantry with a model with x3 strength 6 attacks is a great assasination unit.

    If you cant figure out the use of a movement 20 flying BSB then you need to go back to tactics school (No offense but the bonus's of such a mobile BSB is massive ) He can give his bonus to pretty much any unit in the army Inc Terradons he cant be caught easily by the enemy (keeping the re-roll around for a meat grinding army is so important) and with x3 strength 5 attacks +1 combat res he can safely tie up warmachines without relying to heavily on the dice.

    I am playing Wood elves tonight be intresting to see how that goes. He runs a shooty force with lots of dryads and wild riders. :bored:
     
  11. lupercal
    Kroxigor

    lupercal New Member

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    i would be worried about heavy magic armies with this list or even shooty armies for that matter you will get shredded to pieces against any high elf armies i play against and this list would have a really tough time against a good skaven player, or brets as those small units will crumble to the charges, if your taking this to tournies i would really rethink going as combat heavy as your doing will leave you in the same boat as warriors of chaos without the nastiness, for that matter i think WoC would do terrible things to your army as they play a similar style to this army with better characters, although i do like the flying BSB (is something i never thought of)as i said i would worry about long distance armies with your build it is really hard to take advantage of the strengths of your army if they can't get close enough to fight i could easily see multiple units failing to make it to the lines of a empire or dwarf army in which case they will still usually have a fight on their hands and your small units will have a hard time cleaning up even squishy humans with their depleted str for your wood elf game i think this is a good army it is fairly flexiable and capable of cornering all those skirmishers but i don't like your tournie odds
     
  12. Sart
    Saurus

    Sart New Member

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    The 1 scroll and 6 Dispel dice manage to hold 10 PD 2x Bound High Elf armies at bay.
    Magic really has never overly concerned me.

    As for shooting I have found the 5+ wardsave from the EOTG to be good enough to stop me getting "Shredded"

    You really rate WOC over this army?? Huh intresting the only unit in the WOC capable of hurting this list are the Knights and I have 2x Knight Killer characters with good saves in both my most expensive units + if they do engage the EOTG steps up and wipes em out with d6 s 4 no save hits....

    I 16-4 a heavy shooting heavy forest spirit wood elf army last night with this list. The shootin again was less then impressive from my opponent (Even with 4x 12 Glade guard units HOD arrow and Bodkin arrows bow of loren) He targeted my Kroxi alot and as I thought toughness 4, 4+ save was enough to keep them intact till our lines met.

    The terradons rocks wiped out a Wardancer unit (opponent forgot I could fly through a forest) then copped the HOD in the face and was in turn wiped out.

    The Saurus units chewed through the dryads and the salamanders (fairly useless in this game hid then snatched quarters ).

    People seem to think Magic is awesome I have faced some obscene Power Dice Armies and truthfully I rarely even bother to dispe spells... Paticulary d6 Magic missile stuff relying instead on my toughness and armour to see me through I simply wait for my opponent to try and cast that really devastating spell and sink my dispel dce into that.

    People tend to forget that you still have to make the casting roll with magic and that the chance to miscast grows the more dice you roll.

    No magic heavy armies dont worry me one bit. Shooting is a worry a Dwarf army is this armies Bane. A good dwarf General can really put the hurt on this list if the terrain doesnt favor me in some way.

    Skaven lists are simple to deal with its called denied flank... Deny a Flank Move up quickly Saurus units and Skinks and Kroxigor on the inside track Stegadon and Kroxigor Units on the outside Salamanders Just behind.

    Slamanders Cause havoc with thir shooting vs Skaven Mass panics on all those masses of units....
    Terradons to utilise the forests and clear away the Warmachines and wizards (Hit and run vs Skaven warmachines is brilliant) .

    As to tourny Odds My old lizzard list was almost a carbon copy of this and it won 4 tournys and placed me in the top 4 in another 3. Armies do change but as I said its suprisingly resilient.

    The Saurus units are a impact unit/Defensive with the spears. Impact units do not need multiple ranks to be effective. So I never really plan on being whole when I hit the enemy lines (Most of the time I hope the enemy hits me. )

    Thanks for the thoughts tho I finnaly have a smart player putting his thoughts on the army up. You have raised some vaild points and some points I disagree with but as thry say differnt strokes.

    The tourny scene here in Australia isnt as brutal as oversea's we have a tier system in place and a Comp and Sports system in place to minimise the powergaming aspect if the game in tournaments. Frankly its a great system. :bored:
     
  13. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    This list is very close to what I was thinking of running, but I have a few questions based on your experiences.

    1) Did you ever find yourself wanting more terradons? Or are 4 of them sufficient for your purposes? Flying units just seem pretty universally handy, but they do rack up some points.

    2) Any thoughts on chameleon skinks? Seems like they could be early-game march blocking and such.

    3) Does stupidity rear its ugly head enough that it is not worth taking any cold ones?

    4) Have you tried running the Saurus 6 wide or do you find the extra attacks not worth the loss in maneuverability?

    5) Could I get by with 1 block of Saurus?

    Sorry to pelt you with questions, but I saw that you had 20+ years of warhammer under your belt and tournament experience, and figured I could use some wisdom from an Oldblood. I'm looking to take my time with the Lizardmen as my second army, and I want to piece it together painting as I go, eventually taking it to tournies. Also looking to play a much more movement-based army, and trying to design a tactical sort of hit and run list rather than straight up infantry and artillery, of which I have had my fill with Dwarfs (and Slann lists seem to replace artillery with magic).
     
  14. Sart
    Saurus

    Sart New Member

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    Great questions They are applicable and they are questions I had to ask myself when writing up this list.

    Ok I dont think one unit of terradons is enough I would love to run x2 of x4 or even x2 of x3 But I just cant seem to dint the point anywhere for that elusive 60 points. (Although the skirmishing unit of skinks is looking like a likley victim they are the only unit in the game to date to consistently fail to have an impact)

    Terradons arent that pricy but they are fairly fragile. I tend to Hide them alot till the 3rd turn then pop em out to curtail skirmishers and light cav or run down flee'rs (they come out way earlier vs Warmachines)

    I used to love chameleon skinks but how this list works I dont really need to march block anything (I would include a unit at 2500 or 3k tho as scouts are invaluable )

    Naw 5 wide is fine I have never been a fan of 6 wide other with savage orcs (ran them x2 6 by 2deep)
    I need the list to be fairly compact.

    Stupidity rears its head enough to make me wary of it. Stupidity rarely strikes but when it does its at a crucial momment... and my blocks are to important to have them wasting crucial momments going stupid.

    If you were going to run 1 block of saurus it would need to be a death star unit (Ie 23 Models with Scar vet bsb blade of the Hornet and Oldblood or slaan in the unit as well) Make it to inviting a target for your opponent to ignore draw them in and grind em to dust. Its a tactic I use well with my Chaos dwarfs utilise small units of 10- 15 Skink units to control the oppositions attacking momentum and pick your fights.

    If you want a hit and run type list.
    I would reccomend the lizards they are great at that.
    Firstly I would Dump the idea of saurus they are a meat grinding unit not a ast unit.

    I honestly hant put my mind into a pure skink force (I reckon it could be very good.)
    I would do something along these lines.

    Old Blood on carnasaur (Items the same as my current setup)
    Skink Bsb on Steg with Spear.
    Skink Priest on Anceint steg with EOTG diadem x1 scrolls
    Skink priest with Staff of Sorcery or Cube of darkness (I like the staff for bound items its always been a great secret weapon of mine that use helps curb High elf bound spells and other bound spells like the movement spell undead have etc and the cube can shutdown a crucial magic phase vs an opponent)

    16x Skinks/2x Kroxigor
    16x Skinks/2x Kroxigor
    10x Skinks
    10x Skinks
    10x Skinks
    10x Skinks

    10x Skink Skirmishers
    10x Skink Skirmishers

    4x Terradons
    4x Terradons
    4x Terradons
    6x Chameleon Skinks

    1x Salamander
    1x Salamander

    No idea of points if I have to much I would Drop 1x terradon form each unit and 1 chamo skink.
     
  15. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    That's a lot of terradons! I guess then, by your definition of a hit-and-run, that's not exactly what I'm going for. I guess I should post my list so far, and see what your thoughts would be. Like I said it was similar to what you came up with, but maybe you can give me some pointers.

    OB on Carno, BoR, Enchanted Shield, LA
    Skink Priest on EotG, Diadem, Scroll
    Scar-Vet on Cold One, BBoC, LA, SH, BSB

    15xSW /w FC and spears
    11skinks + 1 krox
    11skinks + 1 krox
    10 skink skirmishers
    10 skink skirmishers

    6 chameleon skinks
    4 Terradons
    3 Terradons
    5 Cold One Cav, muso, warbanner

    1 Salamander
    1 Salamander

    So I ought to probably drop the 3 terradons and add an extra handler for starters... I was debating between the Scar-vet + Cold ones and the Skink Chief BSB with lance as my big breaking unit. Main reason I go for the cav is for variety, not a large target, more movement, more of it static res. Also if the chief gets picked off, it effectively destroys the hitting power of the unit. The prospect of eliminating stupidity from my army is tempting though. I like having the chameleon skinks, not absolutely firm on taking 6 I just had 12 extra points when I was done with the list. My Core probably needs some help, either losing the saurus entirely or bulking up to 2 units. Also might need to upgrade the skink cohorts to have muso and champ.

    More magic defense needed?
     
  16. Sart
    Saurus

    Sart New Member

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    Hey thats a pretty good list mate.

    I really like terradons is all (Best unit in the book IMO)
    Your list looks the gooods I would dump the SW and bump the x3 Terradons to X4 the other core looks fine.

    I dont like the Blade of Realities I much prefer No armour save + wardsave item combo it is over all a much better peformer. But to each their own.

    I think your Magic defense is fine Just save your Dispel dice for the Beast cowers :)
    use your speed to your advantage I really like the list mate its quite nice. :p
     
  17. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Well, after dropping the Saurus, things just fell into place. Had that great aha! moment when my point total went to exactly 2250 on the dot.

    OB on Carno, BoR, Enchanted Shield, LA
    Skink Priest on EotG, Diadem, Scroll
    Scar-Vet on Cold One, BBoC, LA, SH, BSB - added the "no march blocking" war drums
    (I figured he was part of my super-unit, the enemy will be trying like heck to march block them. It's also sort of a nod to the dwarves Relentless rule, and I always loved that. Finally, helps the BSB get to where needed on non-charging turns)

    11skinks + 1 krox muso, champ
    11skinks + 1 krox muso, champ
    11skinks + 1 krox muso, champ
    (I figured, what the heck, kroxigors come in packs of three)
    10 skink skirmishers
    10 skink skirmishers

    5 chameleon skinks
    4 Terradons
    4 Terradons
    5 Cold One Cav, muso, warbanner

    1 Salamander /w extra handler
    1 Salamander /w extra handler

    I think this is the list I will work toward, thank you for your input and ideas Sart.
    I totally agree about the Terradons, though my opinion at this point is on a theoretical basis. :)

    I'm fairly firm in my attachment to the BoR though, and I think with the number of things in my army I can hide behind, I should be able to keep the Carno better screened from ignore armor save warmachines. That, and the BoR will turn those nasty war hydras into soulless empty shells! Also pretty much everything in the Vamp Counts army will be terrified of the BoR... Varghulfs Ld 4. Also figured out that with stacked layers of defense, BoR even works out better against things like "the fridge" Dwarf Lord. T5 1+ rerollable armor 4+ ward. Once you have that many layers of defense, a 1/13 chance to kill per hit sounds pretty darn good (and is statistically better). I'll find out eventually how well my theoryhammer translates into real games.
     
  18. Sart
    Saurus

    Sart New Member

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    You have a strenth 6 frenzied monster that does D3 wounds....... One would think the War Hydra's and other monsters would be crapping their pants already :)
     
  19. Laskoulas7
    Skink

    Laskoulas7 New Member

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    Guys why u dont use Stegadons (except EoG) ?
    I personaly belive 2 Stegas Minimum on Front Line so my oponet can throw them all his power to kill them , and belive me Stegas got long surviability (more if u got 5ward save)
    From other hand the skink-kroxigors unit is reall cool but u dont have tactical avadage by use them , their move ,exaclty as wolfs :p , (the cant turn) make them a bit wolf pack , front only ...
    I dont want a unit cannot reatret 2-3 inches to delay enemy or protect his self...
    The use of 1-2 units tho isnt bad (as for diverters and machine hunters ) but Stega as final conclusion is more useful.
    Your thoughts ?
     
  20. Sart
    Saurus

    Sart New Member

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    Well I put my thoughts on the multiple steg choice down on another thread but am Happy to do it again.

    Stegadons are great Impact support units but compared to static resolution they just dont cut the mustard if you dont roll well on the Charge and break whatever you are hitting with the first charge your in a alot of trouble and chances are you will be ground down to nothing by 3 ranks outnumber and standard.

    Combat resolution is massive in this game and without it you can really suffer.

    I wont ever run more then 1 steg and it will be EOTG because it is the most useful for its points and more importantly it doesnt use up valuable rare or special slots.
     

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