1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The April Poetry Contest has opened for voting! For more information, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

Tutorial Saurus Warriors.. The tactica?!

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Pinktaco, May 10, 2015.

  1. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,690
    Likes Received:
    817
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ok so I just checked. We basically have none, just a discussion thread and something about hordes. I'm going to put down some words, back it up with math and we'll all end up agreeing that SWs are in a weird spot anyway, but that's not the point!

    Saurus Warriors are awesome, yearrrrhhh! ._________________.
    Ok so let me introduce some pros and cons to the warriors.

    Pros and cons
    Pros: Lots of attacks, good tougness and strenght and good armour save. Good viable unit for augments.
    Cons: Cannot gain higher strenght weapons or magic banners. Oh and initative 1. Yeah we compete with zombies in slowness.

    So what's the official reason to not use them? The meta of course. S4 doesn't do diddly to 1+ armoured units. Regen units sh1t all over them as well. Not to mention high strenght elf units.
    They excel at murdering S3/T3 models like they were pancakes on a sunday morning. Anything S3 that doesn't reroll like a mutherfvcker can forget about wounding them, especially if we have sword and board (parry).

    So keep that in mind whenever you decide to go for saurus warriors. If your meta is competitive it's a high risk to take them. If it isn't they should do fine. So let me give you 3 different setup I find common and interesting. The good thing about saurus warrios is that they generate a sick amount of S4 attacks. It's almost ridiculous. We just need to position (during deployment) them so we can actually utilize it.

    Predatory Fighter

    Pro: more attacks.
    Con: You HAVE to overrun, unless there's a skink character nearby.

    Assume that 6 attacks = 1 more attacks. 12 attacks = 2 more attacks. So front rank being 6 wide generally speaking = 2 more attacks. I'm assuming that PF only works for front rank, what you do is your own matter. A Scar Vet have 66% chance of popping an additional attack and an Oldblood have 84% chance to do so (they basically have 6 attacks tbh..). Since we'll always want to maximize attacks PF isn't actually that bad, so with a champ we're talking an additional 3 attacks than without. Not bad.

    The setups
    • The cheap defensive block. 5 wide, 5 deep, can easily be fielded in a 1500-2000pts game. Give them swords and you'll find them quite resilient. Have them near your Slann BSB to keep them hanging around. Don't take a charge from S6 knights or monstrous cavalry units and you'll generally do okay. If playing at 2500pts put on one more rank (5 wide, 6 deep). Basic setup that can also be somewhat cheap depending on what you want from them. This unit will put out 11 front attacks, 1,76 PF attacks and 5 additional attacks from the second rank for at total of almost 18 attacks.

    • The standard spear unit. 6 wide, 5 deep. Spears boost our damage output with an extra rank and 1 model more wide will give an additional 4 more attacks compared to the defensive block and an additional +33% of getting an additional PF attack. This setup isn't meant to take a beating, but can put out a total of 27 attacks. That's 9 attacks more than the defensive one which is quite a boost. DO REMEMBER that we cannot utilize spears if we charge, not before the second round of combat anyway. Important minor detail.

    • The heavy hitting spear unit. 7 wide, 4-5 deep. Obviously spears again. 7 wide should still be able to have full attacks on most units they go up against. Total attacks are 31,4. However for this setup I think it'll do right to have something more. Add in a Scar Veteran. I haven't quite though about the putting him on a Cold One and risking the Look Out Sir being reduced to 4+. The SV can be equiped with light armour, great weapon and Talisman of Preservation OR skip the LA and take Armour of Destiny. The important part is that you have a great weapon and is somewhat defensive. With GW we can take armour of silvered steel and gain a 2+ save, maybe pick luckstone for that 1-time reroll, but I prefer a 4+/4+ save. So main objective for the SV is to deter cavalry units riding into our S7 attacks. If we're up agaist +1 knigths (inner circle knights mostly) we can put out roughly 1 wound on the unit per combat phase with the saurus warriors. Keep that in mind, same goes for the previous setup, more or less. We can do the same on the 1+ monstrous cavalry models which mean that combined with the S7 attacks we can likely remove 1 MC model a turn. Against 2+ models we can do roughly 3½ wounds, but usually these knights (bretonnia/black knights) have characters in them so watch out. I'm personally going to try out this unit some more because of the potential damage output, but there are some obvious issues here. The unit is one big FU and thus the opponent will send a stronk unit against it. So prepare for that. Having a SV will obviously remove 2 attacks from the front rank and add 4 WS5/S7 attacks.
    Magic
    I mentioned the unit being a good target for augments, but not every augments. Gaining D3 initative is completely useless due to them being I1 lol. Mostly Wyssan's Wildform will make them very, very good. S5/T5 with the amount of attacks we can put out? Yes please. WS10/I10? I'll take it. Gaining ASF and +1A is also very good. More attacks on the front rank mean more attacks from PF. +2/+4 toughness and they are suddenly invincible. Alternatively reducing our opponents WS (so we're equal at least) or strenght/toughness mean that we're reducing our opponents to a level we the warriors become slaughter machines.

    I'd love to use lore of metal, but unfortunately the wounding spells are somewhat situational and we cannot use +2 scaly skin, however having +1 To Hit and Amour Piercing would definately help us a lot.
    Rerolling 1s can be very effective. +1 To wound and flaming attacks mean trouble for trolls and beast of nurgles etc. Due to the high amount of attacks they are a very good target for most spells.

    So what else?
    Well I suppose if you go heavy on saurus you might as well go heavy on templeguards. Having two solid units mean that your opponent have to choose how to engange you. We still have our cowboys to intervene when needed and a unit of saurus warriors doesn't mean that we cannot use skink skirmishers to redirect. I believe we can easily have 4 skink units at 2500pts, depending on how you set up your units.

    Learn some basic math you can easily remember. For instance White Lions 6 wide with champ will remove 10½ wounds on both saurus warriors and templeguards. DO NOT ENGAGE IF THEY ARE AT FULL STRENGHT. Lol..
    Have an idea of how much you can do and how much your opponent will do to you. Just roughly. Saurus warriors are easy to do some basic math with because you can remove half your hits due to WS3. Against T4 you can remove another half and against T3 you can go by that 10 attacks in To Wound = 6,6 wounds done, so 20 attacks in To Wound = 2 x 6,6 wounds done.

    Armies this will definately not work against:
    Dark elf and Wood Elf avoidance lists. Skinks will be better here, but still die like flies (it's an uphill struggle regardless of what we do). Warriors of Chaos can be quite hard to some degree. Don't assume that our warriors can keep up with regular warrriors of chaos. Against nurgle halbard with us doing 31 attacks we'll do 3,3 wounds. That's not exactly amazing and they'll do 6.5 wound to use so twice the wounds and it's not exactly like they are twice as expensive, ffs.

    Most other armies they can do alright against. Just don't take a double charge from bretionnia lances, or demi + inner cirlce knights charge from empire.. Or the dreaded steam tank x_x. Or a hell pit abomination. You know, the usual bunch. The good thing is that most of these things are things we wouldn't want our templeguards to go up against either, although they'll likely still fare better. Oh and.. Don't be in the path of a purple sun, okay? Good.

    Skinks vs shield saurus warriors
    So some of you might be against the defensive saurus unit. Fair enough. For me it's about the options and this is a fine option. Do remember that against S6 lance charges saurus warriors die as easy as skinks. So what do they excel at? They can always reform to put out more attacks and thus have more roles. They can easily serve as a support block that can dish out some good attacks. They are still a very good target for magic, again I'm going to refer to Wyssan's Wildfor. T5 will make them quite hard to shift, especially with parry. You don't want to augment skinks because they are T2 anyway so who cares. The obvious difference, however, is that skinks are half the price and faster. And can shoot.

    There are for and against for both units so this is completely up to you.

    Skrox vs shield saurus warriors
    I'll never be a fan of big skrox units. They usually cost the same and never really perfom a good role. It's an alternative alright, but your skinks will die like flies and once you lose a single kroxigor you've lost quite a bit of your punch. Removing those 3 wounds isn't exactly hard and you cannot stomp. The best way to utilize the skrox unit is with small units that can strip units of rank bonus and be a general annoyance.

    Troglodon

    The trog was an interesting addition. Until we saw the rules. If you use the roar you boost your PF output from 16% of the attacks to 33% of the attacks generating more attacks. SO if you have 12 attacks it'll go from +2 attacks to +4 attacks. The monster unfortunately isn't worth it.
    Should you play with PF working on the extra ranks then year maybe. Overall it's a sh1tty monster, unfortunately.

    Solardon (bastiladon)
    Forget about it buffing saurus warriors. I1 ->I2 us useless so just .. just don't do it. I3 templeguards with the +D3 initative from high magic *might* be worth it, just not on saurus warriors.

    Characters
    Can generally speaking be added to any unit, just consider why you do it. I find the middle setup I proposed to be decent without. Adding a character is like adding attention to a unit and you have to estimate whether you'll find it attractive to to add the extra punch in saurus warrior unit that's 6 wide. I just think that going all out on the attacks with the third option mean that you might as well add the S7 attacks.

    Adding an Oldblood is IMO too much. They can easily gain a 2+ armour save with the great weapon, but at that point you've invested quite a lot of point in the OB and tbh I'd rather have in on a mount being a giant annoyance as a cowboy. Alternatively one could also add a cheap skink chief with the egg of quango to maximize wounds in the first round of combat and hopefully break most opponents there.

    Are they worth it though?
    In a competitive environment? Likely not. There, I said it. But let's also be honest - how many of us truly play in a super competitive environment? I personally think the whole mentality that "only the best can work" is completely absurd. Having a skink cloud is boring and takes up a lot of space. Not to mention actually painting 70 skinks + cameleon skinks. Ugh. No, I think there's a place for saurus warriors for most of us. They are, however, not an easy unit to play with because, like kroxigors, they cannot go up against everything in the game.
    "Win" the deployment and you'll have an easier time with them.

    Also do mind that all of this is just my opinion. I'm giving you an insight into what I think and the option to discuss it. Some will disagree and I respect that. Saurus Warriors are unfortunately not for everyone, however, there is no denying that they can swing A LOT of S4 attacks. Question is whether this is enough?
     
  2. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,596
    Likes Received:
    1,699
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Good write up. There a few things I am curious about or would like to add.

    I was recently corrected on this. PF units don't have to overrun, they just can't restrain pursuits. The blurb on page 30 says nothing about overruns (unless overruns are classified as a type of pursuit for some reason).

    You suggested to deploy sword and board Sauri 5 wide and Spears 6 or 7 wide. I am all for deploying Sauri wide when they are fighting an enemy they can beat but it seems to me that spear Sauri need wide frontage less. They already have extra attacks when not charging. Since they don't have parry saves, they will die slightly faster, so they will need the extra ranks for steadfast. Likewise sword and board Sauri need all the attacks they can get, why limit them to five wide? In my experience you want the frontage of the Saurus Warriors to be determined by the enemy match up rather than the weapon. Weak enemies, deploy wide, strong enemies deploy deep.

    When you covered units Saurus Warriors can work with, I think you should cover Stegadons and Ancient Stegadons. They work well in tandem. The Stegadon gets friendly ranks and the Saurus block gets CR from the Stegadon's impact hits. I am presuming that you either get a combo charge or you pin a unit in place with a nice steadfast Saurus Warrior block and then charge them with the Steggy.

    I think you shortchanged Metal as a pro-Saurus Warrior lore. There are two hexes to soften up opponents before engaging with Saurus Warriors and the two magic missiles excel at killing the types of units Saurus Warriors struggle with. Granted I still thing Light is the best lore for a Predatory themed army.

    I read (mostly theoryhammer) of Saurus Warriors countering avoidance lists by deploying very wide and just marching forward so there is room for enemies to go around them. What are your thoughts on that?
     
  3. borkbork
    Ripperdactil

    borkbork Active Member

    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    165
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I suppose you mean "so there is NO room"

    But i do find it a rather dangerous tactic (am theory hammering here as well). Cause these avoidance lists may not have the units to fight against ranked combat units, they do still have the units to win combat against a thin line of Saurus. Without the +3 combat resolution from ranks a some units of elvish fast cavalry can break them on their own.
     
  4. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,690
    Likes Received:
    817
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My respons is in your post.
     
  5. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

    Messages:
    251
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Actually overrun is a pursuit move according to the rule book. However as you mentions they are not forced to overrun. The PF rule states that the units cannot test to restrain the pursuit unless skinks are nearby. As you don't test with overrun but rather you choose to or not to do it therefore the overrun is still voluntary.

    BR
    Agrem
     
    Scalenex and airjamy like this.
  6. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    10,161
    Likes Received:
    19,985
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's a very important point that is often forgotten amongst players. You do not have to overrun due to PF!
     
  7. Iskander
    Chameleon Skink

    Iskander Active Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    206
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Compare: BRB: Page 58: "An overrun is essentially a special pursuit move."

    Because of this, I think there is an argument to be made that you *do* have to overrun. I'm not thrilled about it, but it's plausible. Still, your way is equally plausible. I'm not convinced either way.

    Dear GW: Plz give FAQ/Errata, if not now, then within 1 week of 9th Edition's release.
     
  8. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    10,161
    Likes Received:
    19,985
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I disagree. Predatory fighter only stipulates that you can not test to restrain pursuit (unless there is a skink character present). In the case of an overrun, the key phrase is "...the unit can choose to make a pursuit move, even with nobody left alive to pursue" (BRB p. 58). Predatory fighter only affects your ability to test to refrain pursuit, but this doesn't affect an overrun because there is no test to restrain, the player gets to choose.

    I believe that according to RAW there is absolutely no point of dispute on this matter.
     
    laribold and Scalenex like this.
  9. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

    Messages:
    251
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Agreed on this. The way that PF is currently worded means that according to RAW you are not forced to overrun. If PF would say that you are forced to pursuit (or something along those lines) the ruling would be completely opposite. Now as mentioned it only prevents you from testing to restrain.

    BR
    Agrem
     
    NIGHTBRINGER likes this.
  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    10,161
    Likes Received:
    19,985
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Precisely! :cool:
     
  11. Iskander
    Chameleon Skink

    Iskander Active Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    206
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Ok, I'm sold now, though I wouldn't fault someone for reaching the same conclusion I did. I like your guys' way better anyway :)
     
  12. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    10,161
    Likes Received:
    19,985
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If in doubt... always go with the less painful route. That rule already causes enough grief as is!

    Good old Predatory Fighter. :panda:
     
    airjamy and Iskander like this.
  13. laribold
    Cold One

    laribold Active Member

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Have people really had problems with Pred Fighter?

    I can only think of one instance where I singularly failed to kill a Great Eagle with my SW block. This led to a forced pursuit and a Silver Helm flank charge that destroyed the unit. I learnt my lesson that day...

    But, other than that. I can't really remember another time where Pred Fighter has led to bad forced pursuits (and I run SW block, TG and Krox so there's a lot of Pred Fighter knocking around).


    Although I did remember trying to use it when playing another Lizzie list. I flank charged his Flyblood with an 11 strong cohort, thinking he'll kill a bunch but can't kill them all. He'll then be forced to pursue out of position, meaning he won't be able to charge. Cue, OldBlood fluffing his attacks and only killing 2 skinks. I win combat by 1. He then fails his break test, but my Skinks don't catch him! :eek:
    The Oldblood went on to rally in front of my SW block and then kill them off with the help of a couple of Stegs, before finally killing my Slann. :/

    The best laid plans of skinks and men, eh...
     
  14. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,690
    Likes Received:
    817
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No. But as this is a "tactica" it needs to be here although it isn't much of a real issue.
     
  15. laribold
    Cold One

    laribold Active Member

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Oh I agree totally. It was more of a question really as it often seems to get mentioned as a downside (which, of course, it is) but it got me thinking how many other people had actually had issues with it?
     
  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    10,161
    Likes Received:
    19,985
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I agree, it is definitely a downside, but it isn't as bad as it is often made out to be.
     
  17. airjamy
    Razordon

    airjamy Active Member

    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    111
    Trophy Points:
    43
    This is certainly an interesting start, but what about larger units of Sauri? I have read multiple examples of people using units of 40, or even 80 models of sauri in a single unit. Is this viable in your oppinion, or are there really only the three setups that have worked for you? I think that especially in larger games where things as area denial and other massive units become more relevant that the 40 to 50 sauri setup is certianly an option, even though it is not in lower point games. Would you say that where skinks shine in low points sauri shine in high points?
     
  18. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,690
    Likes Received:
    817
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I personally never play games above 2500pts. 8p model saurus units is completely nuts. NO WAY. A horde unit of saurus warriors would require 50 models (got to add in some extra because we usually strikes last). It *could* work, but we'd be talking about a 580pts unit that is quite huge due to 25mm bases. On top of that saurus warriors are a risky proposition to begin with, going horde is an even bigger risk.

    I'm not a big fan.

    In the opposite corner we have Multiple Small Units (MSU) Saurus Warriors. Yeah I just went there and they are even worse. We almost always hit last so having units of 15 or so wouldn't be wise and including a hero or lord would make things quite expensive.

    Nah I think middle of the road works alright. But again that is just my opinion. Besides I hate these gigantic units so I'm biased to begin with.

    Concerning skinks vs saurus it depens I suppose. Saurus Warriors can still easily be fit into a smaller game - even at 1250pts - in which case I'd actually argue that they are quite good. They obviously still suffer from core knights, but overall I think they'd do fine at that point range.

    A large skink cohort unit wouldn't be able to actually kill anything which leaves us with skrox which is something I wouldn't do and skink skirmisher units which I consider a somewhat harder choice to play with - they require you to know how to play with them and saurus warriors are more straight forward.

    At larger games the massive amount of skinks we can field mean that we are allowed to make mistakes, at 1250pts having just 4 units mean that you cannot quite risk messing up.
     
  19. protector
    Temple Guard

    protector Active Member

    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Someone please speak up if my mathammer is wrong but here is a pro to running horde formation saurus, which is something I love to do as anyone who has read my posts can figure out I feel that most problems can be solved with more saurus. The only problem with Elves is that they can do serious damage up front, of course we can still do better most of the time, you just need to bring a unit that can take it on the chin and come up biting :)

    Mathammer Grudge Match
    40x Witch Elves
    40x Saurus Warriors
    Witch Elves Attack 40 models left
    Double frenzy + AHW = 4 attacks per btb model = 60 total attacks
    10 poison + 30 hits + 20 re-rolls = 13 poison + 40 hits = 26 wounds
    26 wounds with 4+ AS = 13 wounds with 6+ parry = 11 wounds

    Saurus Attack 29 models left
    39 attacks + PF = 45 total attacks
    23 hits = 15 wounds
    Saurus win combat

    Witch Elves Attack 25 models left
    AHW = 2 attacks per btb model = 35 total attacks
    6 poison + 18 hits + 11 re-rolls = 8 poison + 24 hits = 16 wounds
    16 wounds with 4+ AS = 8 wounds with 6+ parry = 7 wounds

    Saurus Attack 22 models left
    32 attacks + PF = 37 total attacks
    18 hits = 12 wounds
    Saurus win combat

    Witch Elves Attack 13 models left
    AHW = 2 attacks per btb model = 23 total attacks
    4 poison + 12 hits + 7 re-rolls = 5 poison + 15 hits = 10 wounds
    10 wounds with 4+ AS = 5 wounds with 6+ parry = 4 wounds

    Saurus Attack 18 models left
    28 attacks + PF = 32 total attacks
    16 hits = 11 wounds
    Saurus win combat

    Witch Elves Attack 2 models left
    AHW = 2 attacks per btb model = 4 total attacks
    1 poison + 2 hits + 1 re-rolls = 1 poison + 3 hits = 2 wounds
    2 wounds with 4+ AS = 1 wounds with 6+ parry = 1 wounds

    Saurus Attack 17 models left (3 btb)
    9 attacks + PF = 10 total attacks
    5 hits = 3 wounds
    Saurus win combat and grudge match

    If by some reason they do not lose frenzy then they would add 2 wounds per frenzy attack per round, which would mean that the saurus still win as shown below :)

    Witch Elves Attack 40 models left
    Saurus Attack 29 models left
    Witch Elves Attack 25 models left
    Saurus Attack 18 models left
    Witch Elves Attack 14 models left
    Saurus Attack 10 models left
    Witch Elves Attack 6 models left
    Saurus Attack 6 models left
    Witch Elves Attack 2 models left
    Saurus Attack 4 models left (Kill remaining Witch Elves)

    Saurus win combat and grudge match :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
    n810 likes this.
  20. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,176
    Likes Received:
    468
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Let's think about support units and how they sit within armies as well.
    Support units FOR Warriors:
    1. Jungle Swarms (They're everywhere!)
    The top of the list (for me) are swarms if you get the charge. It makes 6's in subsequent ranks worth something

    2. Skinks (Skirmishers)
    If you don't want your Warriors to fight, double flee

    3. Skinks (cohort and skirmishers)
    Protect the front of the unit from charges and hope they overrun. You'll get extra rank for spears in your turn, plus you'll be able to countercharge and cast magic. This also makes the warriors a pseudo support unit at the same time.


    Warriors AS Support unit
    They have to survive and hang around. That's about it. If they're your support unit and you haven't setup for a countercharge/tarpit then something has gone wrong. 5 wide, 6 deep usually does the trick. Or Gor-Rok. Or crown of command.

    Characters in Warrior units
    1. Gor-Rok. Top contender.

    2. Scar vet bus.
    Sword and board (or EotG nearby), chuck some scarvets with Sword of Battle, Sword of Strife, Fencer Blades. Anything to load up on S5 output.

    3. 6 Wide - Protect the Skink Priest.
    With 6 wide you can generally have him not in base contact after "maximising" base-tobase for combat. If opponent challenges... Oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo skink doesn't fight.
     

Share This Page