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8th Ed. Second 2400pt army - Trying to be competitive MarkII

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Army Lists' started by Minigiant, Jul 28, 2014.

  1. Putzfrau
    Salamander

    Putzfrau Active Member

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    GL! Let us know how it goes.
     
  2. Minigiant
    Skink

    Minigiant New Member

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    Got 4 games in over weekend. Will do a full analysis once all 12 games are complete but what i have learnt so far:


    Things i liked

    1. Standard of Discipline is great

    2. Target saturation (3 Stegs, Bast, Cowboy)

    Things that frustrated me

    1. No way to break steadfast

    Things i hated

    1. Stegadon - i really wanted a 3rd Ancient

    2. Lore of Light on Slann

    Things i noticed

    1. Against experienced players, cowboys are just a big of a cannon magnet as Stegadons, Bastiladons etc

    Thats all for now
     
  3. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    why didn't you like the lore of light?
     
  4. Minigiant
    Skink

    Minigiant New Member

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    Light specialises in good buffs on infantry/cav. It doesn't have much effect on the skinks and stegs because their damage output comes from impact hits and stomps and without supporting mages banishment is quite weak.

    I got really quickly annoyed with it. I played a light council in my empire so i know how to use it. I switched to Life game 4
     
  5. teufelhund
    Chameleon Skink

    teufelhund New Member

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    I agree... Light in a skink list doesn't do much for you... Life is a decent choice; I usually run high magic lore master and swap for life spells though, it helps the monsters a bit if they are within range. Tetto 'eko is my personal preferrence though the D3 vanguards is killer in monster mash. I run him with a book of ashur wandering deliberations slann; literally single dice almost everything, but wyssan's and searing doom with regularity and re-rolling ones. That's a bit too much of a rework for your current list, but high magic and life seem like the best choices. Best of luck.
     
  6. Minigiant
    Skink

    Minigiant New Member

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    Dont worry i am already planning changes based on games and im leaning Tetto'eko (will have to buy him) but i will stick to my original 12 games before updating. Tetto'eko + Life Slann/Death Slann sounds rather powerful
     
  7. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    Timewarp or speed of light on skrox units can be handy. Infantry charging at 12+2D6 is amazing. True that WS10 saurus are far better than WS10 Skinks. But WS10 Kroxigor are better than WS10 Saurus.
     
  8. Minigiant
    Skink

    Minigiant New Member

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    You are right but when i dont run any saurus, kroxigor or skrox you can understand me giving up on light
     
  9. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    That, I can.
    However, I would find that list terribly boring! Very skinktastic!
     
  10. Minigiant
    Skink

    Minigiant New Member

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    Good thing its not your list then ;-)
    I am enjoying the 4 Dinos #childatheart i am likely to go down to 3 though as the cowboy has impressed me far more than i really wanted

    On another note i played game 6 last night versus Skaven with dual hellpit, got to say the bastilidon is a beast MVP in that matchup
     
  11. Minigiant
    Skink

    Minigiant New Member

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    Things i liked

    1. Dice Channeling

    Things that frustrated me

    1. The Skink Priest is okay, but I found its selection of spells restrictive. I am almost always needing the signature but every other spell could be helpful too.

    Things i noticed

    1. Camo Skinks are really great, but sometimes they are practically another unit of Skink Skirmishers
     
  12. Minigiant
    Skink

    Minigiant New Member

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    So an updated list will becoming at you soon with a bit about the games. The list will be

    - Skink priest
    - Stegadon
    - 4 Chamo skinks

    + Tetto'eko
    + Scar vet

    Plus some other stuff
     
  13. Zwuppie
    Razordon

    Zwuppie Member

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    I really don't know why you see templeguard as a too expensive miscast bunker! Miscast could be awefull, but with templeguard you have to be a bit aggressive! You want those guys in close combat! Secondly, you focus on skinks, but in my opinion the biggest waste of your core! Saurus Warriors are great when you use a slann to boost them, very easy with wandering deliberations or highmagic!

    The signature set-up is great when you have 3D6 channeling on 5's and the store discipline.. I often have many dice to cast and sometimes I have more or equal dispeldice then my opponent has powerdice. Unless he will have irresistable force i often ensure that i shutdown the whole enemy magicphase!

    Lizardmens power is magic and tough units, so trust on it and dare to use templeguard and saurus warriors! They are even as good as a stegadon or ancient stegadon!
     
  14. Minigiant
    Skink

    Minigiant New Member

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    So finally got my laptop back to be able to type properly. So my 12 games 7-2-3, 7 Wins 2 Draws and 3 Loses. I wont go into all the games as that will be a bit boring but my opponents were in no particular order

    Dark Elves
    Dark Elves
    Wood Elves x2
    High Elves
    High Elves
    Beastmen
    Empire
    Slaanesh Warriors of Chaos Choir Bomb
    Skaven
    Daemons of Chaos
    Tomb Kings

    So my meta is filled with different coloured pointy ear people. As a gaming group we also run a W/D/L league which 13 of us play in. Only the game versus Choir bomb was a league match. So what i learnt

    (Should be noted i switched to Lore of Life)

    Things i liked

    1. Standard of Discipline is great
    2. Target saturation (3 Stegs, Bast, Cowboy)
    3. Dice Channelling

    Things that frustrated me

    1. No way to break steadfast
    2. The Skink Priest is okay, but I found its selection of spells restrictive. I am almost always needing the signature but every other spell could be helpful too.

    Things i hated

    1. Stegadon - i really wanted a 3rd Ancient
    2. Lore of Light on Slann

    Things i noticed

    1. Against experienced players, cowboys are just a big of a cannon magnet as Stegadons, Bastiladons etc
    2. Camo Skinks are really great, but sometimes they are practically another unit of Skink Skirmishers

    I will get on with the updated list but first i will respond to a few points Zwuppie highlighted:

    I have read a lot on Saurus warriors and i am on the side of in a competitive environment they dont cut and here is why. You are relying on magic to make a unit worthwhile which is unreliable. Next you have to take it in a game situation
    Saurus warriors vs Opponent equivalent = Is a draw but magic i can be better, they can also buff so back to square one or if they buff i am forced to dispel to allow my magic cast in my turn to be effective. Thats twice as many resources i have pumped in
    Saurus warriors vs Opponents better troops = I have to buff to make them worthwhile which my opponent can dispel and will do if he needs that victory, they could also buff putting them out of reach for my Saurus

    Or i can take units that are good without support and use support to make them better

    I highlighted Tough because this depends on how you define tough, to me Skinks are tough because you cannot hurt what you cannot get hold of

    Lastly why run Temple Guard if they are as good as an Ancient Stegadon when they cost more points? I know ranks, wounds, etc but in an avoidance meta Ancient Stegadons dont need to catch my opponent to earn points back

    So onto the new list:

    Characters: 899 Points

    LORD - Slann Mage Priest:
    Battle standard bearer, Standard of Discipline
    Channeling Staff,
    The Harmonic convergence, The becalming cogitation, Reservoir of Eldritch Energy
    Lore of Life

    So i changed to Lore of Life which works wonders with all my multi-wound models. If i was not in a meta full of elves i would understand running death here instead. He also has a new friend in Tetto'eko to help him 6 dice Dwellers safely if need be. Throne of Vines also helps stop my BSB and General being sucked away into the void and allows my small bunker to keep what little numbers they have. I am going to be testing The becalming as i have sacrificed my scroll caddies (If anyone has any experience with this please let me know).

    HERO - Tetto'eko:

    The special character im predicting will take this list up another level. I am seeing lots o clever tricks with this one already

    HERO - Scar Veteran:
    Great Weapon, Cold One, Light Armour, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone

    HERO - Scar Veteran:
    Great Weapon, Cold One, Gamblers armour, The Other Tricksters shard

    So i was really impressed by one; far more than i wanted to be i feel. I plan to send them off like missiles and wreck face.

    Core: 620 Points

    CORE - 10 Skink Skirmishers:
    Javelin and Shield

    CORE - 10 Skink Cohort:
    Musician, Standard bearer

    So depending on opponent one of these will be the Slann Bunker. The Skirmishers are the more mobile platform, that still grants a lot of protection without being ridiculously expensive if my miscast kills half of the unit.

    CORE - 10 Skink Skirmishers:
    Javelin and Shield
    CORE - 10 Skink Skirmishers:
    Javelin and Shield

    These run disruption and redirection in front of the main battle line

    CORE - 36 Skink Cohort:
    Musician, Standard bearer

    For Tetto'eko to sit in relative safety and a unit that can break opponent steadfast

    CORE - 10 Skink Cohort:
    Musician, Standard bearer

    My final cohort to bring my fortitude up to 6

    CORE - 10 Skink Skirmishers:
    Javelin and Shield

    So based on my opposition this unit can act as pseudo chameleon skinks with the 1 automatic vanguard Tetto'eko offers. This is important because it takes me passed 30 shots that on average guarantees me 5 auto wounds or in oher words 1 dead warmachine/Monster first turn

    Special: 293 Points

    SPECIAL - 6 Chameleon Skinks: 78 Points
    SPECIAL - 5 Chameleon Skinks: 65 Points

    Warmachine hunting

    SPECIAL - Bastiladon: 150 Points
    Solar Engine

    Increases my Initiative on my battleline and adds firepower. I loved this thing versus dual hellpit

    Rare: 584 Points

    RARE - Ancient Stegadon: 250 Points
    Sharpened Horns
    RARE - Ancient Stegadon: 250 Points
    Sharpened Horns

    Main Damage output

    RARE - 1 Salamanders: 84 Points
    +1 Handler

    There we have it, my list updated for the better i think. Tell me what you think?
     
  15. Zwuppie
    Razordon

    Zwuppie Member

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    The problem of the unit of skinks you wanna use to break steadfast is as following:
    Skinks are that squishy with their WS and T2 that your opponent will slay many of them. Because they will easily slay skinks you always will lose your steadfast against hordes or other large units because you will do to less damage.

    The ancient stegadon is indeed nice, but remember:
    Temple Guard have much more attacks when using them in a horde formation. Yesterday I used 36 of them with a slann in it. Conclusion:
    WS4 so you often hits on 3+'s, Str 5 so you often wound on 2's or 3's and 30+ dice will do serious damage!!

    My combat against a unit of ironguts resulted in 12 wounds out of 29 attacks, which is pretty good, more then 33% of my attacks and this was without any buff..

    However this is my way of running a lizardmen army! Skink spam is yours, but the major problem you have is breaking steadfast and at tournaments this makes you losing battles. Secondly depending on your magic isn't that bad. With 3D6 channeling on 5+ and resevoir to spare 1 dice you almost an incredible amount of dice. When you roll a 1 and a 2 for powerpool he has only one dice, and you can have up to 6 dice! This makes creates an impressive magic supremacy and you often experience that you have more dice then your opponent.

    think about it!
     
  16. Putzfrau
    Salamander

    Putzfrau Active Member

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    I don't find very much truth to this. While templeguard (at least in my opinion) is almost always a useful addition, you can run an entirely anti combat/skink cloud army.

    You dont have to ever worry about breaking steadfast because that bothersome unit is tied up all game through redirection and fleeing tactics.

    Granted, if you can't get that to work out you'll be at a serious disadvantage, but there have been a ton of successful tournament players that relied entirely on these tactics.

    The top ranked lizardmen player at this years adepticon didn't have a single combat unit outside of a few scar vet cowboys.

    I do think a heavy combat avoidance army does need to rely on magic to do some heavy hitting tho.

    It's entirely based on your own preference.
     
  17. Minigiant
    Skink

    Minigiant New Member

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    Do you have a link? I would love to be able to view it
     
  18. Zwuppie
    Razordon

    Zwuppie Member

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    The difference between 7th and 8th edition is the downgrade of skinks leadership. Secondly using a Slann in a skink army makes it more easy to snipe a Slann down with easy cannonfire.

    Running Scar-Veterans are fun to use, I run one of them in my current army. 1+ rerollable is just an awesome character and you can hold units for a long time.

    Steadfast is a major problem to this types of lists while playing against Savage Orc Hordes, Skaven Hordes, Elves, etc.
    The best lizardmen player of adepticon is came far but would never win championships with these armies. Thats the major problem, when playing competative you don't play for a good ranking, you play to win..
     
  19. Minigiant
    Skink

    Minigiant New Member

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    I think what you are saying is that Lizardmen struggle to win big (20-0). In a W/D/L environment they are just as good. Also in team environment Lizardmen is a good race to have on your side to match up against the combat heavy army
     
  20. Putzfrau
    Salamander

    Putzfrau Active Member

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    There is actually a post I made a while back. Let me see if i can find the link.

    edit: here it is

    http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/adepticon-best-general.14413/
     

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