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8th Ed. Smoke and Mirrors & Leaving Combat

Discussion in 'Rules Help' started by Akholrak, Aug 8, 2015.

  1. Akholrak
    Skink

    Akholrak Member

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    Hello. :)

    The Smoke & Mirrors lore attribute allows the caster to immediately switch places with another model of the same troop type with 18". Would I, for example, be able to cast a spell with my Slaan whilst he's in combat and then switch places with a Scar-Veteran/Oldblood before the round of combat takes place? The situation came up earlier and we unsure of what would happen.

    Any advice is greatly appreciated. :)
     
  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Yes you can. That is exactly as I play it. As soon as the spell is resolved you can swap places with any character with the infantry troop type.
     
  3. Akholrak
    Skink

    Akholrak Member

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    Do you have a reference from the BRB to support that? Also, slightly off topic, if I was using a Wandering Deliberations Slaan, cast Earthblood, then cast Melkoth's and used the lore attribute to swap places with a character in a different unit, would the effects of Earthblood effect the new unit or the old unit?
     
  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The only reference I have is the description of the lore attribute itself. The only limitations placed on it are...
    • the spell is successfully cast/resolved
    • the owning player chooses to make the switch
    • the wizard and the other character are of the same troop type
    • the wizard and the character are within 18" of each other
    I believe (and this is just my opinion) that the spell would effect both the old unit and the wizard, but not the new unit. At the time of casting, the spell affected the original unit and the wizard, and these effects last until the next friendly magic phase. The spell is clear in what is affected and how long those effects last. There is nothing to suggest that the new unit would benefit from the effects, nor anything that would indicate that the old unit (or the wizard) should lose the effects.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
  5. Akholrak
    Skink

    Akholrak Member

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    And what about the character that the Slaan switched places with? As they are now part of the unit where the spell was originally cast, will they now benefit from the 5+ Regeneration?
     
  6. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

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    No as he was not the target of the original spell. And the regeneration special rule doesn't transfer from unit to character or from character to unit in the same way as stupidity or stubborn would.

    BR
    Agrem
     
  7. Akholrak
    Skink

    Akholrak Member

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    I understand that, but as he is now part of the unit that was targeted by the spell, would it not extend to him? Say if Wysann's Wildform was cast on a unit, and then a character joined the unit (say by the Smoke & Mirrors lore attribute), would they not get +1S & +1T? I personally would say it does, as they are now part of that unit, so why would they not get 5+ Regeration from Earthblood?
     
  8. owain_b
    Saurus

    owain_b Member

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    Does Earthblood say it is cast on the wizard and affects them and the unit they are with? I cant remember, but I have a feeling Earthblood targets the wizard, which would mean he takes the regen with him and to other units he joins and the original unit would loose it when the wizard leaves.
    However, if it targets the wizard AND the unit, then I agree with NIGHTBRINGER and Agrem.
    Dont have the book on me so cant check the wording on Earthblood.
     
  9. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    "Earth Blood is an augment spell that is cast upon the Wizard and his unit (if any). They have the Regeneration (5+) special rule until the start of the caster's next Magic phase"
    ~BRB p. 496~

    The way I interpret the spell is as follows...
    • the spell is cast and affects the wizard and his unit
    • both the wizard and the unit gain the Regen 5+
    • Regen 5+ lasts until the start of the next friendly magic phase
    After the spell has been cast, both the wizard and unit are treated as having the regeneration 5+ special rule. If the wizard then swaps places with another character, the wizard still has regen (until the next friendly magic phase), as does the original unit. The newly arrived character joining the regen unit would not benefit from regeneration because that special rule is not transferred from unit to character. By the same token, the wizard's new unit would not benefit from regeneration, because that special rule is not transferred from character to unit. The section of the spell description that states "...cast upon the Wizard and his unit..." only specifies what is targeted by the spell at the time of the casting. No matter what happens afterwards, these two components (wizard and original unit) benefit from regen until the start of the next friendly magic phase.
     
    n810 likes this.
  10. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

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    Exactly what I thought also but NIGHTBRINGER just brought it up quite a bit better. :D

    It can be a bit hard to track down all the variables though but then again this scene is quite rare happening.

    BR
    Agrem
     
  11. Akholrak
    Skink

    Akholrak Member

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    Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for your help. It's greatly appreciated. :)
     
  12. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    No worries. Thanks for bringing up the topic, it's nice to have 8th edition discussions brought to the forefront again. All this AoS stuff is making me sick :vomit:.
     
  13. owain_b
    Saurus

    owain_b Member

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    I second that! This forum is doing a fantastic job of keeping the 2 games seperate. I'm finding it difficult to follow discussions on other forums for other armies I play as they have the 2 games mixed up a lot, so liking this forum a lot :)

    And as for Earthblood, totally agree with your interpretation.
     
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  14. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I don't want to be the fly in the ointment but the spell the says "the wizard and his unit (if any)". If the Slann leaves unit A with Smoke and Mirrors to join unit B, unit B would get the Regeneration since unit A has ceased to be "his unit."
     
  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

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    Disagree.

    "the Wizard and his unit (if any)" only refers to who the spell is cast on (and hence only comes into play at the time of casting). At the time of casting the Slann is with unit A, so both the Slann and unit A have regeneration (5+) until the start of the caster's next magic phase. Where the Slann goes after Earth Blood is cast is inconsequential in my opinion.

    If the spell read "until the start of the caster's next magic phase, the Wizard and his unit (if any) has the regeneration (5+) special rule" then it would be a different story.
     
  16. owain_b
    Saurus

    owain_b Member

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    I agree with NIGHTBRINGER, I think the spell checks where the wizard is during the casting. Once cast it is set as to who gets the regen
     
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  17. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    The RAW are ambiguous so on a strict legalistic basis, both of our interpretations are correct. In this case the dread RAI come to fore.

    For almost any other spell besides Earthblood I would agree with you. But Earthblood can only be cast on the wizard. The spell is centered on the wizard. Ergo it follows the wizard and goes where he goes.
     
  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

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    Agree to disagree? :cool:
     
  19. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Sounds good.
     
  20. rantapanda
    Kroxigor

    rantapanda Member

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    If you cast regen on unit of one model (and the wiz). Then regrowth one more model previously slain from the unit. Would that regrown model gain regen?

    Also
    Rulebook page 97.
    Basicly if there is a spell on the unit and a character joins the unit, the character also benefits from the spell. In this instance the character would benefit from regen.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015

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