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*SPOILERS* - The Rise of Skywalker - *SPOILERS*

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    In short, this is not how my Skywalker Saga ends! As expected, Episode VI stands as a much better conclusion to the Skywalker saga.


    A couple of quick notes:
    • cinematography looked good, very colourful and beautiful
    • all the leaked rumors I read turned out to be true
    • the film was highly disjointed
    • brand new powers are introduced and one taken from
      Baby Yoda in the Mandalorian
    • the saga ends without a single lightsaber fight on par with the PT
    • Rey is a Mary Sue
    • the film basically shit on or ignored just about everything Rian Johnson did :joyful:
    • the Reylo creeps (Google it if you are unaware) will be pleased
    • the final "fight" is disappointing

    That's a good start. Discuss!
     
  2. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    OldBlood

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    Here's my opinion of it, relayed from the main Star Wars thread:
    I think it was good. Better than VII and VIII, certainly. Not as good as Rogue One or Episodes I-III, but I still enjoyed it a lot.

    The opening was amazing, I have to say. Really different to any opening in the others. Kylo discovers what looks like a Holocron (the first time such a device has been seen in the films) that shows him the way to Palpatine’s lair, where he has his first encounter with the man himself. Believing Palpatine to be as much of a threat to his power as Rey, Kylo threatens the Sith Lord:

    “I killed Snoke, and I can kill you.”

    To which Palpatine replies:

    “I made Snoke.”

    This was very close to a theory I had been formulating in the last couple of weeks, where I had been thinking that Snoke had simply been a placeholder as Palpatine’s apprentice, like Maul and Dooku has been, until he could get Kylo to join him. The only difference was that I envisioned that Snoke had been recruited from an alien species native to the unknown regions, whereas in actuality Palpatine made him, probably through a cloning facility.

    To top it all, this awesome scene then closes with one of Palpatine’s best quotes from Episode III:

    “The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities that some consider to be unnatural.”

    I also enjoyed watching the search for Palpatine’s lair, with the discovery of the ancient Sith dagger and the translation of the Sith runes, and liked the symbolism of Kylo Ren being killed when Rey stabbed him during the duel on the moon of Endor where the Death Star wreckage crashed, and the act of healing him being used to resurrect Ben Solo, his light side persona - that was really good. Also I love the idea that Rey was Palpatine’s granddaughter rather than something more obvious like Luke’s daughter, as it further heightens Sheev’s evilness as we find that he had his son and daughter in law murdered in his attempts to find Rey and turn her to the Dark Side.

    Of course the film does have its flaws as well - there were some purist moments (J.J. couldn’t resist adding yet more planet-killers into the mix, although at least they were Star Destroyers as opposed to a killer planet/star space station) and some woke moments (Rey being the one to kill off Palpatine, Kylo using all his life force to resurrect her e.t.c), but I was largely expecting these given that J.J. was coming back and that the previous two films in the trilogy had been about wokeness being the only weapon that could defeat the Sith once and for all as well.

    I have to say Hux was used even less well in this one than in Episode VIII, with the moment where he claims that he was a spy for the Resistance all along just to get Kylo to fail, and then him being shot and replaced by a new First Order character all in the space of about five minutes being a pretty stupid end to his character.

    Additionally, the new Sith Troopers that were revealed with so much pomp turned out to be hardly any better than the ordinary First Order Troopers (I was really hoping that they would have been actually very skilled troops and a deadly enemy to face like the Death Troopers had been in Rogue One, and it would have been great to have them press the advance and kill off some of the main characters in the segment where Palpatine used his Force lightning to destroy the Resistance fighters, so that it would really look like they would lose), and the Knights of Ren did very little apart from following Kylo around and then attacking him when he turned to the light, only to die from the Lightsaber Rey gave him.

    At the end we then see Rey had a Lightsaber in her quarterstaff after all - why didn’t we have that at the beginning to add a bit more originality to the extremely bland Farce Awakens?

    However, I did enjoy the more original parts of it (and Palpatine was great as always) so personally I think this is the best of the Sequel Trilogy (I know this isn’t saying much, but it wasn’t as bad as I thought it was going to be).

    Also I don’t know if any of you noticed that Rose was cut a lot from the film after her escapades in The Last Jedi, and that we see Luke’s Force Spirit raising his X-Wing from the depths as he encourages Rey to avoid making the same mistake he did, which was a bit of redemption to his character.
     
  3. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    OldBlood

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    I certainly thought the Sith planet and Palpatine's new lair was fantastically done, with the lightning continually striking across the planet and the abyssal darkness of the Sith temple itself. I also thought the injections of Palpatine's theme across the score made it really dark and brooding, actually darker than the film itself given that there was no hero mortality.
    I didn't read or watch any rumours, so I can't say anything about this.
    In what way (or ways)?
    Yes, I was disappointed by this too - because J.J. came back, we have to sit through the lazy OT-style fights all over again in this one. Surely given that both she and Kylo were now well-trained, J.J. could have picked up the pace a bit in the fight scenes? Even Rian Johnson gave us a more visually dynamic fight scene than the ones in Episodes VII and IX (I'm not saying the throne room fight was good, but it was faster and more dynamic).
    We gathered that after seeing the previous two films ;)
    I was wondering if you had noticed the absence of Rose :p
    That's what I was thinking when the final kiss happened.
    I enjoyed seeing Palpatine unleash his Sith powers of stealing life-force from enemies and his heightened Force lightning decimating the Resistance starfighters in the sky, but I was hoping that he'd bring on some Lightsaber-wielding Sith cultists, or that the Knights of Ren would have their own Lightsabers (when they were just thugs with quarterstaffs).
    I personally thought they did well in completely closing off the First Order arc introduced in VII in this one, i.e. that this was a good conclusion to the Sequel Trilogy, but the whole problem with the Sequel Trilogy in the first place was that by bringing back Dark Side users and an Empire remake, Anakin's sacrifice became null and void and he was no longer the Chosen One as Qui-Gon predicted. If they had done something really different such as threatening the galaxy with an external alien race (like the Yuuzhan Vong war in the EU) or something similar that avoided Dark Side users, you could say that Anakin did still destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force, but J.J. chose the cheapest, easiest route which arguably messed it up before it even got to the second Episode in the trilogy.
     
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  4. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    While Shadiversity is as smart as Mr. Plinket, he is not entertaining as Mr. Plinkett. I listened for about 40 minutes and got tired of it, but he does have good points.

    He points out that they made a plot whole in the opening crawl. Palpatine faking his death.

    -It invalidates the entire original trilogy
    -the First Order makes no sense in light of Palpatine's machinations
    -Palpatine's ability to make a big fleet in secret seems to strain credibility.
    -Palpatine's strategy of building power in secrecy makes sense, until he announces his presence (off camera) to the entire galaxy and swears to kill everyone thus uniting all potential opposition. It would make more sense to attack from a position of surprise. It would make a more exciting start to the movie too.
    -Palpatine's plans for Kylo and Rey are contradictory a lot.
    -They are unclear if he was a clone or if he survived exploding twice on the Death Star somehow. His life support gear seems to be entirely for aesthetics and makes no sense.

     
  5. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Understand that Palpatine was only added into the DT last minute, and only because Rian Johnson killed off Snoke. I do believe that Jar Jar Abrams intended Snoke to be the primary villain.

    Patchwork storytelling. See statement above.

    That whole Rey-Kylo force link never worked for me. I didn't like it in TLJ and it is even worse here. It just seems like a sloppy and lazy way to instantaneously transfer information and objects across space. It's too convenient and creates a jarring experience in the flow of the film.

    This is how Luke should have been from the start, but it doesn't seem fitting coming off of TLJ. His character arc is all over the place. His character has zero stability throughout the DT [wants to strike down Kylo because he sensed the dark side in him, becomes a hermit that gives up on everything that he believed in the OT, does a 180 degree turn in TRS].

    Also in the flashback training scene, he is defeated by Leia. Is there anybody this guy can out-duel?
    Overall, Luke was a huge disappointment in the DT. Not at all what he deserved.


    • too much exposition trying to bridge the gap from TLJ to TRS
    • the characters just seem to randomly bounce from place to place
    • the whole Rey-Kylo force link



    On a different note, Palpatine's final order...
    How did he manage to create such a large fleet? The first order seemed to spring out of nowhere when the Empire fell, and now this fleet seems to do the exact same. It is a bit convenient that all those ships could not activate their shields or maneuver at all. Also, where are their tie fighters? Each of those Star Destroyers should have had its own contingent of Tie Fighters, yet in the giant space battle there are only a few flying about. Also, if they staggered their elevation a bit, they could have decimated that tightly clustered group of resistance fighters. That whole sequence felt quite forced and fell flat.
     
  6. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Disclaimer, I haven't watched this, but I have watched some detailed synopses by reviewers I trust.

    This is a problem with the DIsney trilogy.

    On the fluff forum whenever says "Let's do a collaborative story where we all take turns telling a part of the story." I am really terrible at those games. Even if it's a casual party game or campfire activity I get huffy about it. "I had a character arc and a theme and you ruined it!" If someone brings up doing this in the fluff forum. I won't tell anyone they can't do this, but I'm not going to participate.

    I doubt the trilogy would be a masterpiece if Jar Jar Abrams directed Episode 8, but it's clear that either Abrams and Ruin Johnson didn't talk to each other or Johnson hates Abrams and deliberately tanked his plans.

    So episode 9 was a narrative train wreck largely because Jar Jar had to undo most of the events of episode 8 and awkwardly salvage his original plan. It's clear he planned to use Snoke as the main villain but now he couldn't among other things. He also had to operate under a committee. by trying to please everyone you end up pleasing no one. It's clear that Jar Jar tried to do all these things.

    -Throw an olive branch to the original trilogy fans
    -Maintain the new Disney trilogy fans
    -Don't make it too complex though, we need to maintain the popcorn movie audience

    -Throw in a dash of SJW-ness to keep the SJWs happy
    -but not TOO much SJW, Disney wants to keep conservative casual fans happy.
    -but not TOO much SJW, Disney wants to keep conservative casual fans happy.
    -I know, lets put in a same sex kiss but make it very brief and not in the center of the screen, much like we did with Beauty and the Beast. Best of both worlds. Brag about our LGBT street cred while staying mostly in the closet!

    -There is no sex or romance in episode 7 and 8, we need to put some in here.
    -It can't be Rey and Finn because that will offend China and Europe. Both Chinese and European audiences typically don't like seeing interracial dating.
    -I guess some people want to ship Rey and Kylo. So lets throw in some lowest common denominator teen romance "tame the bad boy" thing.

    -We need over the top bad guys and no one really took Kylo or the First Order seriously
    -BUT they cannot resemble the CCP in any small way or the CCP won't let us screen this in China

    -We need some tie-ins for merchandise and theme parks!
    -Can we stick Baby Yoda in?
    -We need to throw in some Easter eggs to the Mandalorian because that's where all our good faith is.
    -Can we stick Baby Yoda in?
    -We need jokes, people like jokes!
    -Maybe George Lucas can salvage this?
    -Can we stick Baby Yoda in?

    -We need to kill some more original trilogy characters to elevate our new characters
    -Oops test audiences hate that, we need deus ex machinas to keep them alive, but don't change the setup that killed them in the first place.

    -Lens Flares, because Abrams has an obsession



    Throw this altogether and you get a narrative Frankenstein monster




    EDIT: I had some memory flashbacks to when my friends and I played Star Wars the Roleplaying Game. Basically between 11 and 15, we played it at least once a week, usually a lot more. This was before the prequels. We took a lot of liberties with Star Wars canon because it's our universe and our characters. Not a big deal, but there are limits. About half of our games took place before the Battle of Endor and about half of them took place after the Battle of Endor.

    One game, we all played Dark Jedi. We kind of worked for the Emperor but we also kind of tried to subvert his orders. We spent most of our time building a criminal empire on the sly. One day the Game Master was like "Hey, I have some new story ideas, but I think this would work better if it happened in the Expanded Universe. Is everyone okay with you guys getting cryogenically frozen for fifteen years."

    We shrugged ours shoulders. "Why not, we didn't like the emperor much anyway."

    "Okay, so you guys are unfrozen, and it turns out the Rebellion and the remnants of the Empire are working together to fight off the Borg."

    All the players as one "I don't want to fight the Borg in a Star Wars game."

    The game died.

    We twisted canon a lot but you can only twist canon so much without breaking the setting.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."


    Ultimately if one person is to be blamed it is Kathleen Kennedy. She oversaw the whole thing and it was up to her to ensure that a cohesive story was developed. She failed as a leader and the DT suffered greatly for it.
     
  8. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Wise words. I try to tell this to my conspiracy theory loving uncle every Thanksgiving.
     
  9. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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  10. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    At the end of Rise of Skywalker, Rey cannibalizes Luke and Leia's lightsaber to make her own lightsaber and she has a yellow lightsaber. Do you believe there is a good reason for this or is it just because Rey is special and unique?



    Based on this, it would suggest that Rey is going to style herself as a guardian of the Jedi Temple, whatever form that takes.

    Not it that it matters for a sequel. It's a safe bet that Daisy Ridley is not interested in reprising her role.
     
  11. Erta Wanderer
    Skar-Veteran

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    oh no what a shame shoot what ever will we do without such a masterly crafted character.
     
  12. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    OldBlood

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    I do know this, I first formulated the theory I mentioned above around a couple of weeks before the film was released, i.e. at a time when the inclusion of Palpatine as a last-minute replacement for Snoke was common knowledge. I was merely interested in how they would attempt to explain the relationship between Palpatine and Snoke when I came up with the theory. Remember that before the killing of Snoke and the announced return of Palpatine, my main theory was that Snoke was a resurrected Darth Plagueis. Of course this theory has been dispelled by Episode IX.

    However...

    I thought of another theory yesterday concerning the possibility that although Snoke was merely a creation of Palpatine, could he have been created as a clone of Darth Plagueis? Palpatine was a contributing factor behind the Republic Clone army as it was needed as part of his Great Plan to take over the galaxy, so he would already have contacts on Kamino. Given that Palpatine already possessed a lot of relics and stuff from deceased Sith Lords, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had kept Plagueis’ body preserved somehow after his murder, so collecting the DNA for cloning would be easy. I also think it would appeal to Palpatine’s sense of humour if he created a clone of his old master to become one of his foremost servants...

    [​IMG]

    Perhaps the clone was then either born deformed somehow or suffered an injury at some point, which would have then explained Snoke’s scarred body.

    Again, I was just interested to see if they would do anything to alter the stuff about Rey’s parentage after Rian Johnson attempted to dispel all the theories on it, and I was just pleased they chose something more obscure.

    Remember that nobody noticed the creation of the Clone army on Kamino after Dooku wiped it from the Jedi archives, even though they had loads of transport ships already built, because it was so far away from the majority of Galactic civilisation. Given that the Sith planet was in the Unknown Regions somewhere (I think), and given that the First Order also formed in the Unknown Regions (for definite), I’ve applied the same logic here - because the location is so far away from any other settled planets, it would be much less likely that even a huge Fleet would be discovered by anyone.

    Concerning the lack of TIE Fighters, I’m thinking that because each of the Star Destroyers had a planet-killing cannon attached to the underside of its hull, either the size of its hangars would have been reduced to make space for it, or the number of fighters aboard it reduced to avoid it becoming too heavy to manoeuvre properly.

    To be fair though, I didn’t want any more planet-killing stuff, because that whole plot line is so tired now after Episode VI and VII. Blame Jar Jar Abrams for that one :p
     
  13. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Another reason I would like (most) of the EU to be made canon and see the Timothy Zahn Thrawn novels turned into a movie trilogy or television series. Thrawn was an Imperial that was skeptical on the value of super weapons believing that conventional warfare was the key to victory. He nearly brought the New Republic to it's knees with a smaller fleet.

    But if wishes were fishes I'd have seafood every day.
     
  14. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    What's the point of having Star Destroyers with planet killing cannons if they don't have the means to defend themselves from small attack craft? That seems like a very obvious and easy counter to them.
     
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  15. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    That was the point. JJ Abrams wanted to have bigger better ships because he wants to be the biggest, but the story requires that the good guys win. Also, space horses and lens flares.
     
  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    There are definitely a lot of conveniences for the good guys to take advantage of. And why don't the Star Destroyers use their planet killing super laser to fire upon the very tightly compacted formation of resistance ships? Like shooting fish in a barrel.
     
  17. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    OldBlood

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    You’d think that they would have small laser cannons mounted on the sides to take care of those, like the Imperial ones supposedly had, and I’m pretty sure that would work, but given that we had the stupid moment where Poe takes out all of the anti-fighter cannons on the Dreadnought in Episode VIII, Jar Jar Abrams probably just assumed the same thing would happen with the Sith Destroyers in IX. Which is just lazy.

    I don’t fully know why they did that, but to be honest, both of them know very little about Star Wars anyway. Abrams just thinks Star Wars is about repeating the ‘nostalgia’ of the Original Trilogy (which it is NOT) and Johnson doesn’t have a clue about how Star Wars technology and physics works. Any of us could probably have made a better Sequel Trilogy than those goons, but none of us have the renown, the money or the friends in high places to get it done.

    Now you’re starting to see how I feel when I rant about the Original Trilogy :D
     
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  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    You keep knocking the OT, but it remains the most beloved trilogy of the franchise. The PT and the DT don't even come close, despite how you feel about either of them.


    The success of the Mandalorian seems to cut against this point.
     
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  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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  20. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

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