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8th Ed. Strats against Skaven

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by rantapanda, Nov 25, 2013.

  1. rantapanda
    Kroxigor

    rantapanda Member

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    Hello. Id like to ask what kind of stuff you guys use against the pesky skaven :artist:

    Salamanders seem awesome. vulnerable to jezzails and globadiers? and ofcourse the doomwheel and hellpit.

    and what do u bring against the hellpit, which sounds amazing, close to op perhaps. doomwheel is too awesome.
    but against them I cant think of anything else than just skink shooting.
    Doomwheel would require avg 52 shots with skirmisher javelin fire.
    Hellpit would require avg 62 shots with skirmisher javelin fire taken if u cant nullify its regen save.
    ..if my math is correct.

    1+ armoursave scarvet will make good damage to the doomwheel probably make it flee if u get the charge in.

    against hellpit i dont see anything challenging it in a melee, unless its low on wounds and u get good impact hits in with steg.
    A good shot with blastiladon would be candy against it.

    thoughts? what are ur reactions when u see a big hellpit being put on the table? :D
     
  2. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Lore of fire (flaming sword) on cameleon skinks -> will slaughter the hell pit (poison AND fire -> regeneration with no armour save).

    Flame cage, fireball and fire-cloak are all decent vs skavens (low toughness).

    Jezzails can hurt with their S6 shots.

    The doomwheel is perhaps IMO the most OP unit compared to hellpit and the wheel. It comes with S6/T6 and 5W, D6 +1 Impact hit and costs the same as a bastiladon. The biggest drawback is that it'll most definately fire on its own units in the first round of shooting and it might drive off the table if unlucky. It have a 4+ AS so it can be taken down with poison or large quantities of high strenght attacks.

    - Clan rats are lulzy (WS3, S3, T3, AS5+ with shield upgrade).
    - Slaves can be annoying and are easily underpriced for what they do. Hero + strenght in number bonus = Ld9. He can refuse to accept a challenge and still give his Ld bonus to his unit from the behind.
    - Stormvermins arent that dangerous in low numbers (WS4, S4, T3), but in great numbers they can continue to wound your saurus warriors.
    - Plague monks have S3, T4 and comes with 3 attacks (2 hand weapons and frenzy), so no armour and no parry. Should they be in a plague furnace unit they are unbreakable and can put some serious hurt on you (impact hit from furnace + 2 different attacks from it + "fighty" character on top + any monks that can fight).
    - Warp Lightning gun can hurt, but also have a greater chance to misfire than most other warmachines I believe.

    That's what I've mostly been fighting.

    Oh and watch out for Dreaded 13th spell. It's something like 4D6 = turn your models into rats. Should the entire unit be turned into rats the skaven player controls it. Bring more than 24 Templeguards, just in case.
    Overall the skaven magic is aggressive AFAIK.

    Watch out for Fellblade wielding lords. It gives him S10, you have to reroll Ward Saves and D6 multiple wounds.

    They also have a few decent banners. I think one of them can basically lock down any shooting and flying for a round and another gives their plague monks reroll to hit and to wound for one round.

    Overall the individual units aren't hard to beat since they're all relatively weak, but once you have a plague furnace unit in the front and doomwheel in the flank it's messy. The strenght of skavens are the obvious "strenght in numbers" rule along with some relatively cheap big models and lots of blocks full of rats.

    For 2500pts a skaven player can have something like 2 x 40 stormvermins, 30-40 plaguemonkts w/ furnace and 80/2 x 40 slaves. And then you add on whatever toys they like to bring.

    Also about your math: 2 units of 10 skink skirmishers w/ blowpipes will deal 20 shots each so an average of 52 shots isn't THAT much when you think about it. If you can take down 3 of the 5 wounds your sknks have already done a good job since it cannot get those back (I don't believe skavens have any magic or items that can heal).

    Also, do remember that once they are fleeing they'll a hard time rallying since they cannot use they Strenght in numbers rule and they all have low Ld.

    So, with Lore of Fire you can easily take down any hellpit and contain another unit. You can alternatively also rely on your bastiladon to shoot.

    I'm no expert against the rat men, just had several friendly games against them. They have a lot of funny stuff that just waits to miscast. Overall our units are much better than theirs, but they can just bring so many more. If you can pick out the big guys I *think* you should be fine.
     
  3. VampTeddy
    Terradon

    VampTeddy Member

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    Your sallies are skirmishers and can be deployed more than 18" away from his jezzails. That's already -2 to hit. With your skink save to top off his 6's to hit i'd say he needs a big unit to kill it.
     
  4. rantapanda
    Kroxigor

    rantapanda Member

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    Thanks for the great writeup!
    a great heads up against the skaven for a beginner like me.
    oooh Lore Of Fire sounds amazing. ud need like 12 skinks on average for one turn to shoot at the thing close range and ud kill the hellpit right off, and nullifying too horrible to die rule too. Awesome! just what the doctor ordered :D
    otherwise the firelore is quite average imo but the heavy counter to hellpit is just so worth it.
     
  5. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Actually the reason I find it alright agaisnt skavens is because they are all rather weak. I mean, sure Lore of Life with Dwellers Bellow and resurrection is superior, but against most skaven models any S4 hitting attacks will be dangerous. Lore of Fire brings a lot of S4 attacks + flaming attacks.

    On the other hand High Magic can wreck face with the uber spell (forgot the name). You remove entire units with that spell and the rest will die the following turn anyway.
     
  6. rantapanda
    Kroxigor

    rantapanda Member

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    yup. lore of fire doesnt have anything like fiery convocation which just murders big blocks. But i feel the hellpit is a bigger threat than the big infantry blocks. Sallies do well enough against them i think. And you could tie one big block with the arkadon while u finish of the rest.
     
  7. Lawot
    Kroxigor

    Lawot Active Member

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    Ditto all that about the Lore of Fire - Skaven offer some pretty good targets for Fireballs, Flame Cages, and Flaming Swords. Consider Light, too - it's buffs are always good for us, and its signature spell is a flaming missile that can be boosted to S6.

    It's been a while since I've played Skaven, but from my misty recollections, here are two notes about the Doomwheel: first, any time it takes a wound, it has a chance to go out of control. That means that, even though it will take a whole bunch of Skink shooting to actually kill it, you only need to get one wound on the thing to make the unreliable contraption even more unreliable. Wound him while he's still close to the enemy, and the chances that it'll wreak havoc on his own army are much better.
    Second, before you send any tough guys into combat with the Doomwheel, remember the Warp Lighting thingies - they do 3 shots, each one does multiple wounds - maybe not allowing armor saves? That's a character and monster killer, right there.
     
  8. VampTeddy
    Terradon

    VampTeddy Member

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    No AS.

    I've found my basti to be greatly allergic, and movement 4 running from 3d6 isn't a winner. Poor basti, sniff...
     
  9. rantapanda
    Kroxigor

    rantapanda Member

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    yeah the doomwheel has alot of potential to be just devastating..

    its either skink shooting or 1+AS Scarvet with dawnstone + GW charging that can kill it.
    as the doomwheel can only shoot in its own turn and you should be able to damage it badly, break it, hopefully overrun, but if not then its fleeing and cannot shoot next turn.

    also heres a way to easily get rid of the hellpit, 3 skink skirmisher groups 10-12 strenght, skink chief bsb with the flaming banner. insert the chief on one of the skirmishers, shoot with them first, u will average 6 sixes, which are poison and flaming, so instant wounds. then the other 20-24 skinks shoot, averaging 4 sixes as well, killing it in turn 1.
     
  10. VampTeddy
    Terradon

    VampTeddy Member

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    I don't think i'd ever send a 1+ AS dawnstone and great weapon scar vet against the wheel.

    He has to kill it in one round, or he's dead meat. And the wheel has 5 or 6 wounds.

    It also shoots into meelee, and can choose who it fires upon, no AS makes both the 1+ and the Dawnstone waste, heck i had an OB with 1+ and 4++ die to it.

    EDIT: The wheel shoots no matter what, including if it's fleeing - if it flees, hope it gets close to his own units.
     
  11. rantapanda
    Kroxigor

    rantapanda Member

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    in the rulebook, a fleeing unit or a unit that has just previously rallied cannot make a shooting attack
    ..tho ok,, its debatable if the zappp thingie is a shooting attack at all..
    probably not .. so i guess sending a character against it would not be such a great idea :D
    unless u manouvre a bunch of skinks behind it to make it do difficult terrain tests and soak up the damage
    ld 7, 4-6 hits from SV/OB, with GW is very likely to do 3-5 wounds, which would mean it will win combat and to stick the doomwheel would need snake eye or close to snake eyes..
    if skink javelins have done some wounds into it previously then its a possible to destroy it completely..

    ok its prob not a good idea to send a character against it anyway :D
     
  12. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    I'd hesitate. It's not that it can hit you with it's normal attacks, it's the lightning bolt that'll hurt lol. I actually have no idea whether or not it can shoot when it flees or rallies. I mean it just sort of randomly happens anyway <.<
     
  13. VampTeddy
    Terradon

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    It's an armybook vs BRB thingy, and the armybook wins those matches after all.

    The doomwheel just shoots - but it shoots at the CLOSEST unit - it could be a friend ;) So making it flee, or pushing it around a bit with heavens can disturb your opponents plans.
     

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