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AoS Summoning and teleporting

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Kadanga, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. Kadanga
    Saurus

    Kadanga Active Member

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    Hey guys, lets find out what kind of weird shenanigans we can use the teleports for, in conjuction with our best</sarcasm>friend: summoning!

    It's been a while since I looked at summoning and firstly I want to make sure I remember it correctly. Feel free to slap me in the right direction here. This is all hangs on that the new GHB doesn't change how summoning works.

    As I recall:
    1. You pay points for summoning new units or reinforcing a deployed unit with more models. There is no freebie case for summoning spells.
    2. The summoning spells are unique for each unit, as in they count as different spells, so you can summon multiple times in a turn as long as it is not the same kind of unit you are trying to summon.

    IF the statements above are true, summoning can be a quite potent tool in conjuction with units that rely on their size for buffs, i.e. skinks and warriors, to make them last longer and stay a threat despite of casualties.

    Combined with the new teleport, this could create some fun new tactics.

    Lets say you have 40 skinks. They get mauled in the opponents turn, leaving only 15 left standing.
    Due to the enemies positioning you cant withdraw from combat because you cant evade the 3", and there is no room to summon in new models, due to coherency and available space.
    So our new friend the teleport takes the unit out of harms way and then you summon in reinforcements for that unit. The next turn you reinforce it again (depending on the first summon crits or not) and then teleport it into fray.

    OP? UnderP? Cheating? Cheesing? Lets go to town on this.
     
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  2. Gradeaal
    Skink

    Gradeaal Member

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    I forget if newly summoned units can do anything their first turn, and can't verify as I am out of town. The idea of cycling units however could be pretty effective. It'd make even more sense if those units could heal or replenish from turn to turn, so maybe this could be a good way to relieve our dinos from the thunderquake?
     
  3. Seraphage
    Bastiladon

    Seraphage Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't sound bad but can we summon inside an already existent unit ? I thought we could not ?
     
  4. Koriialstraz
    Skink

    Koriialstraz Member

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    I thought like you. I'm interested to know if it is really the case.
     
  5. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    Indeed we can't. Would be awesome though becasue summoning gives us only minimum units. I'd love to have the 40K summoning where you can decide which size you want.
     
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  6. Gradeaal
    Skink

    Gradeaal Member

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    Pretty sure you can't but that's the point. You teleport a unit away and replace them with a fresh unit on the frontlines. Or maybe I'm understanding the initial statement wrong?
     
  7. Koriialstraz
    Skink

    Koriialstraz Member

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    I think that in the first message, it was question to reinforce the already existing unit, not replace it.
     
  8. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    If I understood @Kadanga correctly he wants to reinforce existing units to keep the strength by numbers buff active. Sadly that's impossible.

    My idea for summoning and teleporting shenanigans is that we could actually place two synergizing units behind enemy lines.
    Such as a Stegadon and a Priest/Starpriest to buff it.

    Also interesting about teleporting: Will we have to do it in the beginning of the hero phase or at some point in the hero phase?
     
  9. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    As for units:

    Stegadon obviously, because of its Skink Alpha. It can move itself to make that charge. Also with a bit of luck he will be able to use his ranged weapons then, and an undamaged charging Stega is fun anyway becasue of high damage and rend.

    Refer to this thread for Stega-fun: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/stega-stampede.19271/


    Troglodon is also a good choice. If he hits with his spit he might make the charge.

    And of course if you don't have to use it at the beginning of the hero phase (like summoning) you can buff the unit before teleporting. Mystic shield, Serpent Staff, Celestial Rites, Skink Chief buff and so on. Bonuses from a Thunderquake may also apply if it isn't the first round, so rerolling charges may be possible.

    Also worth mentioning: Knights+teleport. Knights are slow for cavalry, and they are glass cannons. Let them hit the squishy stuff in the backfield by summoning one unit and teleporting a second one.

    Also maybe possible: Teleport a unit away from danger after luring the enemy into attacking it, this splitting your enemy's forces.
    Or teleport it away so it can charge again (looking at Knights especially, with the Firelance they need those charges).

    EDIT: OH! And teleport your Astrolith Bearer so it can keep up with your army despite having its totem active.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
    Seraphage likes this.
  10. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    Teleporting a Bastiladon onto an objective would also work of course, or some Saurus Guard.

    Teleporting Kroak near a small unit and nuking them with Celestial Deliverance could also be fun...

    EDIT: Or against Beastclaw Raiders: Summon/Teleport a chaff unit behind a Stonehorn to force it to charge backwards (or not at all if you make your own charge).
     
  11. Seraphage
    Bastiladon

    Seraphage Well-Known Member

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    Our army which already was one of the most diverse and fun ones, just sky rocketed to the TOP of fun and choices ;)
     
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  12. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    I hope so. My fear is that for some reason most tactics will just be good enough to be competitive.
     
  13. Kadanga
    Saurus

    Kadanga Active Member

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    Thanks for correcting me on the reinforcement summoning, you are correct. It clearly states to set up a unit, not add models.

    I love the teleport ideas we have here, I think I am gonna use the bait and switch as my signature move. Put out a vulnerable unit to get the enemy to break rank and go for it, then teleport it out and teleport a stronger unit in to the place it was (dice allowing).
     
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  14. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    Also worth mentioning is the idea of doing the following:

    a. Take a Slann and the right command ability so you can teleport two units
    b. Also take a Dread Saurian, a Skink Priest and a Starpriest
    c. reserve 100 points, you know for what I guess

    1. If it isn't already ascendant, try to change the constellation to "The Hunter's Steed" using your Slann
    2. Use the Slann to cast Mystic Shield on the Dread Saurian
    3. Use the Priest to cast Celestial Rites on the Dread Saurian
    4. Teleport the Dread Saurian into enemy territory, 9" from something you want to see dead
    5. Teleport the Starpriest right behind the Dread Saurian
    6. Summon a Balewind Vortex with the Starpriest, pushing the Dread Saurian ~4 inches forward
    7. Use the Starpriest to buff the Dread Saurian with Serpent Staff
    8. Use the Starpriest to cast Summon Starlight on the Dread Saurian
    9. CHARGE!
    10. KILL!

    So now you have a Dread Saurian behind enemy lines, with a rerollable charge of 3-13, that is only 5" away from the enemy. With a rerollable 2+ save, all hits against it also have a -1 in place, and if it rolls a six on wound with its jaws it deals 2d6 damage.

    EDIT: Also worth mentioning: If you are doing this in the first turn you are attacking before your opponent's buffs are in place, so it is rather likely that this makes the Dread Saurian more effective.
    Make sure you line up in a way that doesn't make the tactic obvious though, so place the units as far apart as you can on setup.
    If it isn't the first round make sure you teleport the Dread Saurian to a place your enemy doesn't expect it. So if you set it up on the right and they placed their stuff to counter it also on the right, teleport it to the left.

    Harharhar. I don't have a Dread Saurian but I want to see this happen! :D

    EDIT: And of course you can also use another beast for that. A Troglodon that hits with its spit cannot fail the charge then, and it is dirt cheap, and a Carnosaur (Oldblood or Scar Vet doesn't matter) can also do tons of damage that way. Especially if he is carrying an artefact.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
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  15. Seraphage
    Bastiladon

    Seraphage Well-Known Member

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    Seriously guys I am so excited and wanna try that many lists that even 6 months of having no obligations would hardly be enough to be tried ! ( btw I am having obligations. A LOT. Dammit ! :p)
     
  16. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    Oh as for my Firelance idea:

    Sadly porting out a Saurus Knights unit and charging right back in is not an option (teleporting out counts as a retreat), but you could sure swap out those units each round if they live through that!

    So the idea is as follows:

    Needed stuff:
    - Firelance with Scarvet on Carno and 3x5 Knights with Lances, so you can do 2 mortal wounds on a six
    - Starpriest
    - Priest
    - Slann
    - Ability to port two units

    0. Slann alters constellation to The Hunter's Steed if necessary
    1. Slann buffs mystic shield on ScarVet or one group of Knights
    2. Starpriest buffs Serpent Staff on ScarVet or one group of Knights
    3. Starpriest casts Starlight on ScarVet or one group of Knights
    4. Priest buffs Celestial Rites on both (use one with trappings)
    5. Teleport the buffed unit of Knights and the ScarVet towards the enemy
    6. They receive +3 charge distance (+4 with Hunter's Steed constellation) from their bataillon and the rerolls from the Skink since their ScarVet is there too
    7. CHARGE! On average the Saurus Knights should go 10", so you have a ~50/50 chance their charge works. The ScarVet's charge has less of a chance to work (only +1 with Hunter's Steed constellation).

    In the next round you could teleport the Knights out (if they are still alive) to deny the enemy an attack and teleport another unit of Knights in, again you have the chance to charge and do those extra mortal wounds.
     
  17. Killer Angel
    Skar-Veteran

    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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    The new rules gives us so many new exciting possibilities, that I'll need an year to test them all! :D
     
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  18. Kadanga
    Saurus

    Kadanga Active Member

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    If wished I knew someone around here who also plays Seraphon, at least then we could test two lists at the same time!
     
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  19. tom
    Jungle Swarm

    tom New Member

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    I'm looking forwards to doing basi bombs, equipped with snakes, I have found the snakes to be so much more effective than the laser.

    Buff him up with curse of fates, then when you roll to teleport him, he can move on a 5/6 and cant fail the teleport. He also has plus one to charge from curse of fates and hopefully another from steed ascendant. Even if he fails the charge, you arcane shield him before he goes and you still have a 2+ unrendable tank in their backline, they have to do something against him!
     
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  20. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    Good thinking!
    I'll have to try that technique, because the one thing this really does better than using it defensively (like I would do) is that you can choose a point of attack where more than two or three units are in range. I'll have to do the math on where the breakeven point is, but I think If you manage to attack four or five units you will do a decent amount of average damage.
    I'll dig up some numbers and we'll see....
     

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