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AoS Tar Pit Army/Eternal Starhost Question

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Matthew Sebourn, Aug 11, 2018.

  1. Matthew Sebourn
    Jungle Swarm

    Matthew Sebourn New Member

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    This maybe answered somewhere else but my search-fu is weak.
    I am a new AOS player but have lots of experience with other games. I originally picked Seraphon because I wanted big stompy lizards running all over the place but want to branch out a little.
    My questions centers around Saurus Guard and the interaction of Eternal Starhost and Sworn Guardians. Do you get a double stack of abilities? Does this lower my effective save to a 2+ with no effect of rend until -2? And with Mystic Shield added to the mix this seems like a hard unit to crack.
    I have been reading a lot of lists and there doesn't seem to be one that uses Guards so I am assuming I am missing something.
    Could a list be built that has three hard as nails units with amazing saves with a summoning engine to add danger and a hard hitting edge?
     
  2. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Yes, the Eternal Starhost, combined with Mystic Shield, Summon Starlight and a Skink Priest makes Guard one of the most sturdy units of the game.
    The catch is: They still only have one wound each, and mortal wounds bypass their save.
    That means that Guards in an Eternal Starhost are a very hard nut to crack, but as soon as someone brings mortal wounds they melt like Olaf in Summer.

    And the problem with that is: the really strong armies in the game spit out mortal wounds like nothing. So unless you find a way to mitigate that you are better off with just putting a lot of wounds on the table, which means Saurus Warriors or Skinks, and bringing lots of them. Skinks are also a lot faster.

    So yeah, that's the reason why you don't see a lot of Saurus Guard in tournament lists. Sadly. :(
     
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  3. PabloTho
    Saurus

    PabloTho Member

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    With each new release, high rend and/or mortal wound output becomes more prevalent - and as long as this pattern holds, Saurus Guard are going to be increasingly redundant.

    If ten skinks are going to hold a line against a Thundertusk's breath just as well as ten Saurus Guard and for less than half the point cost, then the best choice is obvious.

    It's a shame too because in their Starhost, Saurus Guard are really nice in terms of damage output. Thing is, any player worth his salt probably knows this and will erase them before they get the chance to do anything (often without needing to even engage in close combat).
     
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  4. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Some armies just can't, and those explain why there are still sometimes people groaning when you bring Guards, saying "damn tanks, those are OP".
    I played against Bonsplitterz for example, and as soon as you prevent their wizards from doing damage, by sniping them or just unbinding their spells, the Guards will just stand there and hardly suffer any wounds. I have seen a Kunnin' Rukk focus-firing all their, dunno... 120 attacks or so onto 5 Saurus Guard, killing only two of them. And after that one round of shooting all those bad-saving naked Orruks was enough to make them even less of a threat. By round two the game was over.
    Same for Khorne. If you lower their hit rolls using spells so they cannot do their mortal wound on 6+, many of their units will hardly make a dent into a line of Saurus Guard.
    With the new changes to shooting rules you can mess with ranged armies even better. Just teleport the Guard near them, then they cannot shoot your other units. They will waste tons of shots against the Guard.

    And there are numerous lists that have problems killing Saurus Guard, even if the player is pretty good.
    But yeah, top tier armies will just roll over them, even if the player isn't that good.

    I think the next step has to be more ways for all armies to mitigate mortal wounds to a certain degree, changing that mortal wound spam meta a bit. Then Saurus Guard will see more use again.
     
  5. Xasto
    Ripperdactil

    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    There's also the new Emerald Lifeswarm Endless spell which complements nicely the Saurus Guards, giving us a way to bring them back and indirectly dealing with the mortal wounds. You just need to get bigger units than 5 just to be sure that they don't get wiped out in a single turn. Could be promising!
     
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  6. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Maybe. Not sure though if the healing is enough, it is only D3 on one unit after all. :(
    I plan on playing an Eternal Starhost using it myself and see where that goes.
     
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  7. Deed525
    Troglodon

    Deed525 Well-Known Member

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    I use guards in my list I, flutter in and out of eternal host) but usually take 20 guards and a warden - as long as you have other threats on the table (carno, kroak, engines etc) then the guards do get ignored some what - it’s only when they are close to a sensitive unit/model that they get targeted, but if you are canny and use teleports wisely you can ‘hammer and anvil’ pretty nicely.

    I also don’t rate lifeawarm much, I’ve tried but it just doesn’t help nearly as much as you’d imagine - one game I got 1 wound back before it flew away, palisades and shackles seem a better option (creating barriers and funnelling troops works well)
    I try to get shackles behind opponents and bar their way with guards - they tend to try and head for the unit rather than the spell - basically then pincer them together, guards will ground most units to pulp especially in a starhost - but yeah if anything has mortal wounds (skaven have a high count of those) then I’d go for speed and wounds instead - skink, rippers etc.

    Bare in mind you can summon pretty handy units of lesser warriors pretty easily with engines/slaan if you want bullet shields - but I’d rather churn out ‘high risk’ units that the opponents cannot ignore - again making the guards a lesser target, you’d be surprised at how far they can travel when ignored and if they get into the right spot, a unit of 20 with a warden will pump out some serious damage.
     
  8. gmoney
    Saurus

    gmoney Member

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    @Aginor @Deed525 mind if you guys tell me what your eternal starhost army lists look like? I want to at least use the coolest sounding battalion in 1k matches
     
  9. Deed525
    Troglodon

    Deed525 Well-Known Member

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    In a 1k match i’d probably not use eternal (as the cost of just having 3x5 units of guard, warden and the battalion would be most your points ;D
    But it would look something like;

    Slaan
    Astrolith
    (Eternal host)
    Warden
    3x5 guard
    Soul shackles
    -1,000points :D

    Basically you’d be on the defensive and hoping to get some summons off (units of troops I’d advise) as one blow from any mortal wound dealing unit/spell etc and that’s a unit of guards gone.

    For 1k I’d go for;

    Kroak
    EoTg
    3x10 skink
    5x chameleons
    Soul shackles

    (Not much to it at a glance - but Kroak can easy go on the offensive and bust tough units in a pinch - but what I’d do is use the skink as bullet shield while Kroak generates CP to summon in a carno or basti (round 2) and use re-rolls on the EoTg in hope for a unit of 20 skink - ta-da an instant army boost of around 360 points for free, more if you can pull off two summons by turn two with the engine.
    Chameleons simply hunt lone heroes/buy time etc.
     
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  10. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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  11. ILKAIN
    Temple Guard

    ILKAIN Active Member

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    But is Kroak still worth the 450 points.... :(
     
  12. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    Depends on point level I'd say, he is still good just not lethal as he was.
     
  13. ILKAIN
    Temple Guard

    ILKAIN Active Member

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    at 1k... id have to say go with normal Slann and beef up the starting Skink meat shield with the point difference. if you don't get first turn and an aggro army alphas you...
     
  14. gmoney
    Saurus

    gmoney Member

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    @Deed525 based on your list, I'm planning to run this for my 1k:

    -Slann
    -15 guards
    -Sunblood
    -Hysh allegiance for that sexy mortal wound damage reduction

    I have 350 points left to spend. I was thinking of 10 chamo skinks and a priest for map presence and save rerolls but I'm open to recommendations.
     
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  15. Deed525
    Troglodon

    Deed525 Well-Known Member

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    I’d go for warden over sunblood - purely because he instantly adds attacks and is a damage barrier for the slaan, but each to their own :)
     
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  16. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    Basilidon and summon in cheaper units

    The Sunblood while giving failed reroll hits the Eternity warden not only increases your attacks but he also protects your Slann, your 15 guards are not taking advantage of the Eternal battalion so why use them as they are expensive and only one wound, you could deploy 30 warriors for an extra 30 points, although not as tanky as guards 30 take some killing.

    Use the other 320 points on a Basilidon and a couple of endless spells, summon in skinks every turn to tie up and grab objectives, use LoSaT to position

    Something like this

    Allegiance: Seraphon
    Mortal Realm: Hysh

    Leaders
    Slann Starmaster (260)
    - General
    - Trait: Great Rememberer
    - Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices

    Saurus Sunblood (120)

    Battleline
    20 x Saurus Warriors (200)
    - Spears
    10 x Saurus Warriors (100)
    - Spears

    Behemoths
    Bastiladon (280)

    Endless Spells
    Soulsnare Shackles (20)
    Quicksilver Swords (20)

    Total: 1000 / 1000
    Extra Command Points: 0
    Allies: 0 / 200
    Wounds: 52
     
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  17. LizardWizard
    Kroxigor

    LizardWizard Well-Known Member

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    At your game's point level I would probably pass on Kroak. You can bring a Balewind Vortex, Chromatic cogs, and a Skink Starpriest to summon the Cogs for less than Kroak on his own. Kroak will give you versatility if you need to switch to a mortal storm strategy, but you can get more summoning through supporting a regular Slann than through Kroak alone.
     

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