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AoS The AoS 2.0 Tactics Thread

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Xasto, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying we can dispell the artifact? What do you mean?

    Our wizards care cuz it's their only offensive power that now gets gutted, especially considering Slann and Skinks are virtually incapable in combat.
    Also, our armies care cuz it's about 90% of our acces to mortal wounds.

    Our wizards are in the unique position that we have relativly many utility spells compared to our acces to damage spells. So in that sense at least we're not entirely screwed. But it still creates plenty of problems for us, even if it might be significantly worse for other armies.

    Also, just wait till you face say a treelord with 3+ re-rollable save that's healing himself while wearing this artifact. You're not even going to scratch it then...
     
  2. PJetski
    Saurus

    PJetski Member

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    Maybe Tzeentch should use units besides Wizards? They have a battletome full of units besides LOC, Ogroid, Gaunt Summoner, and Endless Spells.

    Maybe that's the whole point of the Lens...
     
  3. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    half their roster consists of wizards... It does not matter how a tzeentch army is build, this artifact will be increadibly effective against them.

    Anyway's if the point of the lens is that wizards are OP then a better solution would be to just not make wizards OP to begin with. As opposed to throwing an artifact at it that's equally broken…. Yes Broken vs Broken is still technicaly some form of balance, but arguably not a very good one to go for...
     
  4. Xasto
    Ripperdactil

    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    Can we not call everything that is performing well right now ''broken'', twelve days into AoS 2.0? Seems a bit much
     
  5. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I think there is a difference between something working well or being strong, and something being broken. And there are indications that some of the stuff mentioned here is indeed not only strong but actually broken.
     
  6. Xasto
    Ripperdactil

    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    For something to be ''broken'', it should be something that no matter what you throw at them, you have no chance of beating it. What does Lens of refraction do for you when facing a Khorne army? A Saurus Sunclaw? A Beastclaw Raiders force? Suddenly it becomes a worthless artifact. It is exceptionnally good at what it does, don't get me wrong, but it does not destroy every facet of the game.

    We are literally 2 weeks into the new edition, and everybody is claiming this and this is broken, taking lists from one event, a team tournament at that. Reading through some people's posts is just depressing...
     
    PJetski likes this.
  7. Putzfrau
    Salamander

    Putzfrau Active Member

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    That seems like it's an unfair definition of "broken." Something doesn't need to be unbeatable to be broken.

    I don't feel like anyone is claiming "this and this is broken" willy nilly. We're saying "these very specific things seemed out of wack just based on the numbers, and the evidence seems to back that up so far."

    Have you played the lens, EOTG, kroak, or rippers since 2.0 dropped? If you have please share your experience, but blindly saying "we can't say anything is broken yet" isn't exactly driving more responsible discussion... it's killing it.

    I will say, I think we should try to be conscious about the language we are using. "Broken" might be the wrong word based on your definition, but that's an important distinction to make. What do we mean by broken?

    When I think of "broken" within AoS, I think skews the game dramatically around it without appropriate cost or sacrifice. If Lens effectively neuters entire armies or builds, it's broken regardless of how strong it is when looking at things from a more general perspective. One free item shouldn't totally destroy an entire army build.

    I think we shouldn't make any changes without another event or two under our belt, but I don't think it's unfair or unnecessary to have these discussions. For better or for worse, 2.0 has a few holes right now but that's fine! There were literally hundreds of warscrolls to update across tons of factions. If we are ONLY talking about a few handful of units/items, I think we're in a pretty good spot...
     
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  8. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    No, when I say broken I mean the ability in question provides a great deal of power at relative low oppertunity cost, but most importantly in the situation in which you'd want to use said item very few options exists that are actual counters.It does not need to "work" in all situations it just needs to too much in a "average" situation in which you actually want to use it. In this case that situation would be "facing an army containing at least 1 wizard".

    The best way to view this is as follows:
    Let's say we're in the situation where just looking at the lists you'l be able to tell who wins and it's as follows:
    A lens-list beats wizard armies.
    A wizard army beats khorne armies.
    A khorne army beats lens armies.
    Any other army loses to any of these three.

    Now each variant can be beaten. But they're still all broken due to the fact that they can only be beaten in 1 specific way. Which means that once the list-building is done you're not so much playing the game any more as just going through the motions of formally defeating your opponent while everyone already knows that that wizard army isn't going to beat t he lens army regardless of how desperate they struggle. It leads to very frustrating gameplay as it invalidates large swathes of playstyles in favor of whatever happens to be FoTM and it also tends to sacrifice "interesting" mechanics, such as magic in favor of just having everything be (near) one-shot mechanics or complete negations of the (near) one-shots.

    As for it being a bit early to call. Some of it just looks like a terrible idea on paper, though imho most of it does look like it'd work relativly well so far from what I've seen.
     
  9. Tokek
    Chameleon Skink

    Tokek Active Member

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    No need to be depressed.

    The purpose of the game is to have fun.

    I have not heard one person say that the 6N event was not fun.

    ergo the game is not broken.

    It could probably do with a few tweaks to a handful of things which would give the competitive crowd a bit of a skewed experience which in turn would probably get dull and repetitive faster than anyone wants. No big deal. Nothing broken, nobody hurt, lets just carry on rolling dice and having fun people.
     
  10. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    That's correct. The game as a whole is not broken, none of the presumably broken units seems to be severe enough to do that.
    And yeah it seems the event was a lot of fun for all people who reported from there, that's a good thing.
    I know I am myself quite guilty of that sometimes, only mentioning the points of critique, but I really think we shouldn't let the few not so good things overshadow how well the game seems to move into the right direction.
     
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