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AoS The summoning of nurgle

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by Canas, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    It'd be unuseable by the mere fact that you're not going to be able to summon anything of remote significance until turn 3 or 4 which in game that lasts 5 turns is far too late. Not to mention that summoning something significant twice will essentially be impossible.

    To put it into perspective here's the point ranges of units that can be summoned for each point range:

    For 7 contagion points: 0-60 points
    For 14 contagion points: 100-120 points
    For 21 contagion points: 200-240 points
    For 28 contagion points: 340 points.

    With how limited contagion point generation is this'd mean that in order to use summoning for anything significant you'd be putting a significant chunk of your army in reserve till the 3th or 4th turn. Putting 10-25% of your army into reserve until over half the game has already been played is a massive disadvantage. And that's assuming that once you have enough points you actually have a place to summon. Remember, those summons have range limitations from heroes and enemies that are much stricter than the others. It's viably possible to block nurgle summons. And that's disregarding the fact that it's possible to limit the contagation point regeneration. Having both limitations seems very excessive..

    Or at least it is assuming contagion point generation is as limited as I expect it to be. If people figure out a way to generate 50 points per turn from turn 2 or something then obviously my whole point is moot. But I doubt that :p

    But I suppose they should F.A.Q. it, bound to lead to confusion.

    Edit: In addition to all of that, a gnarlmaw costs 7 points, it generates 2 on average per turn. This means than the only gnarlmaw that's expected to actually increase your total points is one summoned in turn 1. And that's assuming your enemy doesn't block it at any point. Every single other one will most likely not pay itself back. This slows down the generation considerably further than I thought initially making battalions and general traits and such the only real increases. With so little generation I'd expect that if the point cost remains the only stable uses will be either to spam gnarlmaws (they still do mortal wounds and if nothing else, they're in the way. Briljant strategy to block an objective) or to summon that 1 stray unit of 5 plaguebearers on that 1 unclaimed objective in the final turn to turn the tide. Everything else will rely too much on randomness (do my gnarlmaws generate 1 or 3 points this turn..) and your enemy being nice to actually be reliable.

    Sigmarites need to be reforged which takes time and is torture so that won't work.
    That's an intersting idea. Though how many graveyards do they get to place? And/or can they increase the amount of graveyards? Seems an easier mechanic to avoid unlike nurgle's gnarlmaws. Plus, the gnarlmaws have an incentive for your enemy to go to them (preventing points) and also an incentive to leave em alone (mortal wounds). Do the graveyards have that as well?
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
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  2. Canas
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    Canas Well-Known Member

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    By the way, where's the info about death? I can't find it.
     
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  3. Xasto
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    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    Well there is just so many variables that it is hard to really pin down how efficient this new form of summoning will be. I'm thinking of Horticulous Slimux who gets to plant a tree for free, and many other ways to get points with command traits / artefacts. I guess we'll have to test it!

    But I think it is safe to say that this summoning DOES cost points in your list. It is generating a lot of buzz on the community site and the facebook page, but the general consensus is that The General's hanbook 2017 clearly says that any new unit put on the table costs points. Nurgle summoning never says it doesn't (just says it costs contagion point for the summon mechanic) and so the precedant rule still stand.
     
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  4. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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  5. Canas
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    Canas Well-Known Member

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    1 tree from horticulous isn't going to change that much though. Admittadly with his battalion it becomes 1 tree/turn which is more significant and there are other abilities as well. But so far it seems like that'd not be enough to reliably be able to summon a lot. And definitly not quickly. Ah well, they claimed to put out new FAQs with every major tome and a new GHB each year, so maybe we'l actually have an anwser to this soon.. though I do really hope that they drop the pointcost. Summoning with full pointcosts and a delay in a fairly short game is not an improvement...

    cool thanks.
     
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  6. Canas
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    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Those are quite cool. The summoning is very "undeath", and it avoids the whole discussion about points by counting as healing which brilliant. The spells are neat too. Though I'm a tad worried that the combination of it all might make Death nigh impossible to move or assault in certain situations. Take several wizards, stick em on a gravesite, surround em with fodder. Laugh as you bombard enemies with spells while they try to cut their way through an endless regenerating horde of horrors defending the wizards. Would be fun though.

    Also, I love the whole "keeps healing everything so wipe stuff out" alongside the heroes being linchpins. Good mechanic.
     
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  7. Killer Angel
    OldBlood

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Death is going to be scary once again. I like it, and I like the fact that with these new rules we are going to see a development of new tactics.
     
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  8. Ritual
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    Ritual Well-Known Member

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    And I am going to have to make some graveyard markers!

    27540257_10155028184741126_815287218570710232_n.jpg
     
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  9. Canas
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    Canas Well-Known Member

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    wait, graveyards aren't going to be like the gnarlmaw and actually be terrain? They're just a random marker? That's going to be a problem without some good limitations on placements. Just imagine a "king of the hill objective". Place 4 graveyards on the hill, place a hero or four on the hill. Surround it with 60 zombies. Laugh as you ress 8D3 zombies per turn or something obscene like that.

    Also, mildly dissapointing in terms of just looks. Those gnarlmaws are nice and visual way of showing a nurgle army fighting.
     
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  10. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    Dunno I think it allows you to make some cool markers and I bet there will be rules on placement as in how close together they can be and will they need points to allow them to be placed like Nurgle, 7 points for one etc etc.
     
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  11. Canas
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    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Edit 2: and then it randomly deletes one.... so attempt #2

    First tree is free and always there, I'd assume the graveyards work similar to that. And it's probably not going to be a problem. But I can imagine it easily becoming really freaking powerfull if they're not carefull.
     
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  12. Xasto
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    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    Didn't they mention somewhere that you get 4 gravesites, 2 in your deployment zone and 2 in your opponent's?
     
  13. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I remember that as well. Must have been in the second article.
     
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  14. Ritual
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    Ritual Well-Known Member

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  15. Canas
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    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Right, must have missed that. I'm curious how they'l turn out but it sounds interesting at least.
     
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  16. Xasto
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    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    It sure does! Can't wait to see how this will shake the Meta!
     
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  17. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I actually think it will not affect the way some armies play all that much.
    I expect Tzeentch, Kroak, Kharadron or Kunnin'Rukk to just mass shoot the Death heroes (with mortal or normal wounds) and thus kill all the regeneration becasue the Death armies rely very heavily on their heroes.

    But then.... we will see. I sure hope I am wrong and Death becomes a serious contender again.

    IMO the next big update should be Destruction. Except Kunnin' Rukk and one or two Ironjawz that have to be REALLY lucky they just pose no serious threat. Grots, Greenskinz, Ogors and Troggoths are kiiinda bad now.
    Maybe GW will release a Grot Battletome, who knows...
     
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  18. Canas
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    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Mhwa, depends,the hereos have gotten spells to regenerate, plus necromancers already have the ability to transfer wounds to nearby fodder. Not sure about other heroes though.

    Also, most of their heroes don't seem to suffer from heroic tallness as much as our commanders. Wouldn't it be viable to block LoS to a reasonable degree for most of em? Especially your heroes on foot.

    And mwha, destruction does need an update but at this point I'd say Seraphon are starting to fall behind a lot as well. Not necesarly in terms of power but really in Quality of life aspects. Seeing Nurgle and death get summoning reworked, mortal wounds being pushed more, magic being reworked for loads of new guys etc. it's all stuff that we don't benefit much from. And seeing as we're still one of the largest individual armies I would expect GW to support us to a degree. No idea how popular seraphon are, but if our faction falls out of favor that's 30-odd models no longer selling. For that alone I'd expect us to get an update within a reasonable timespan (or well, it'd be logical... not like GW is known for logical behaviour..)

    Other than that, we still have plenty of factions that have nothing whatsoever, mostly order and destruction I think. Chaos only slaanesh seems to have nothing and the beasts of chaos. Death is getting a full overhaul. So yeah, order and destruction.

    Maybe destruction can get a complete overhaul like this as well to get more of an identity. Cuz this death overhaul does give em that if nothing else.
     
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  19. Ritual
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    Ritual Well-Known Member

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    Matched play rules would require the points to be available to bring a unit back even if it's been in play already, so I don't think it will see as much use as you think... Unless of course there is a caveat or adjustment for Death to allow them to do it.

    I do think Destruction need some attention, though I think there's a setup somewhere in there that people aren't playing at the moment I just haven't fully delved into the rules... The ice mammoths are just too brutal at lower points level not to have a combo in there that could mess up the meta somewhere.

    Sadly shooty / mortal wound armies are too prevalent. Still shocked that the rules weren't changed in GHB17 to not allow heroes to be targetted if there was a closer non-hero dude like in 40k.
     
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  20. Canas
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    Canas Well-Known Member

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    It requires a unit being fully destroyed
    It requires it being destroyed within 6" of the graveyard
    It requires one of your summonable units having been completly wiped out.
    It requires passing a dice roll (with 50% chance..)

    That's 4 restrictions, 3 of which any opponent can influence the diceroll only a few can influence. That's already fairly decent as far as limitations go. A direct pointcost shouldn't be necesary there.

    Having said that, I would expect an overal pointcost increase (or significant balance changes) to make up for the "free" reinforcements. But not a direct point cost associated with the mechanics. Firstly the healing brings back random amount so you're going to need to calculate fractions constantly if you bring back 2D3 skeletons as you buy em per 10... Secondly, associating a point cost with it will result will again create this annoying situation where a chunk of your points are in reserve. Which is just awkward in a 5 turn game. Plus as it's reinforcing and requires stuff to actually die, it's entirely possible to lose a game without the ones you're saving the points for dying... Lastly, why would restoring models cost points but healing 3D3 on a Morghast's several turns in a row is fine? It'd be inconsistent ifn othing else...

    I think the issue with destruction is that they too lack an identity. Big though melee guys exist in every grand allegiance... Death now has an identity with the endless reinforcing. Khorne, Tzeentch & Nurgle have gotten clear identities with their tomes (especially nurgle if the summoning works as I want/think. Very nice spreading corruption feeling to it) SCE have "OP posterboys good at everything" with mostly small elite units as their identity. Seraphon, although not briljant in this aspect gameplay-wise thanks to the powercreep and indirect nerfs with rule of one and what not, at least have a very distinct look and fluff compared to everything else. Sylvaneth has some nice mechanics surrounding forests. Kharadron have boats and shooting as their focal points. However destruction doesn't seem to have anything like that, nor do its subfactions. It's just a bunch of violent guys. There's nothing making them really unique. I'm sure there's something effective in them, but they just don't look like they actually have any interesting mechanics or playstyles to speak off.

    Maybe the GHB 18 will change things with respect to shooting. Would love it if you could actually do something like that. Stuff like skink heroes or skaven weaponteams are disturbingly easy to snipe as it is now...
     
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