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Tutorial Theoretical Ideas - The Troglodon issue

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by VampTeddy, Mar 3, 2014.

  1. VampTeddy
    Terradon

    VampTeddy Member

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    Troglodon - The neglected (and sad) dinosaur

    So we all like the model, it's awesome! and we all (assumption) like the idea of a lizard buffwagon, because that's what it is, along with it's bastiladon counterparts, a buffwagon with one use only!

    "why are you ranting teddy?"

    shush, easy now!

    We're going to try and find a way to make it useful here, yes! we'll goddamn make the thing useful, within the scope of it's own rules, without GW's help! right here, right now!

    i'll propose some tactics for troglodon usage here, and pro's and cons of those uses, and you guys will then flame me, call the beast useless, and ignore the thread! it'll be awesome!



    The centrepiece strategy!

    Probably the most useful strategy for the Troglodon, is for it to look awesome enough, for your opponent to forget your stegadons and carnosaurs, and shoot it to bits! Realize that it looks awesome and friggin dangerous, and that it's buff SOUNDS awesome and present it that way to your opponent, you aren't lying, and he'll focus so much attention on killing the beast that you get more space for the rest of them!

    Pros :
    Less expectations for the Trog.
    More safety for other beasts.
    Your army will look awesome!

    Cons :
    Many points for a cannon magnet.
    Mgith not be a rebound trick.
    not using it to it's fullest.


    The flank holder.

    The intention here is to be used in a denied flank kinda strategy! Either on the strong flank, in unison with the below strategy, or on the weak flank, to scare other stuff from engaging it, because str 5 T 5 and a quick to fire multiple wounds attack isn't THAT bad and the idea of a flanking beast with the roar available is actually a neat factor! Multiple wounds d3 is usfull on chariots and monsters that often find themselves on flanks as well!

    Pros:
    Roar get to be used.
    Relatively cheap flank holder.
    Fast enough for the job.
    Get to use it's shooting attack (if it hits).

    Cons:
    Weaker than many things it could face.
    Dependant on the right matchups.


    The predatory fighter list!

    The troglodon benefits from high strength predatory fighter allies. Krox are awesome for it, templguard with razorbanner followup, then TG, then Saurus, but what about a list incorporating it all? Dual saurus 24, TG x 26 or more (maybe even hordes?) and kroxigor en masse, noone said you couldn't bring 2 units of 6! or even small hammers of 3, so you get to use all of your attacks as PF attacks! Get in position, and get that important round of combat! many warhammer battles are decided on single combats, decide them with your troglodon, buff the shit out of your troops, and give them that final edge!

    Pros.
    List written to synergize with the Trog.
    Trog mobility synergizes well for flank action in this kinda list.

    Cons.
    Expensive to pull off, and very CC focused.
    dependent on the rolling of 5's and 6's.
    Less points leftover for salamanders, stegadons and scar vets (our bread and butter).


    The flank squad

    2x 3 Krox, 1 troglodon, set them on a flank, march them up. It isn't too expensive, and it can do serious hurt!

    Pros.
    Good flank unit.
    High mobility.
    PF all around.

    Cons.
    Small unit sizes
    Easy to shoot dead.


    These are my ideas for the troglodon, and for making it useful!

    I definitely think that small units of 3 krox might be the way to go with the beast, maybe 4 to be durable against shooting!

    Hope this get people thinking, i know my pros and cons might be missing something, and feel free to add! Just want us to reconsider this beast :D!
     
    Scalenex likes this.
  2. Prof
    Saurus

    Prof Member

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    Great list! Recently finished my trog as I couldn't resist the model :)
    going to try out the flank squad for sure.

    should there be a pros and cons for the skink on top? Arcane vassal, channeling etc
     
  3. VampTeddy
    Terradon

    VampTeddy Member

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    Oh you're right!

    Gonna be working on that :D!
     
  4. Prof
    Saurus

    Prof Member

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    don't know what the etc is for though - arcane vassal & channeling. That's it ha!
     
  5. Dog On Todd
    Kroxigor

    Dog On Todd Member

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    I'm trying him out as a flanker with 4 Krox and Saurus. Using High magic with chanel staff and harmonic convergence as well, so hoping to shoot through him for a wider range in a small points game.

    If I hit with that spit attack I'll be happy!
     
  6. Thatguyoverthere11
    Skink

    Thatguyoverthere11 New Member

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    Yeah, the arcane vassal is the best part of the troglodon.

    Do you want a 12" spirit leech or 36"?
    12" dwellers?
    Burning head down a flank.

    Tons of fun. Best way to keep your slann out of reprisal range.
     
  7. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

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    Burning Head has been FAQ'd to have no type, and as such, cannot be cast through the vassal.


    But back on topic...
    SCar Vet BSB on cold one, with skaven pelt banner, joined into a largish unit of cold one cav.
    With 21 predatory fighter attacks, the trog will bump the bonus attacks a bit.
    If you should happen to fight skaven, predatory fighter on a 5+ and hatred rerolling misses will let you buzzsaw through rats like nothing else can; and by nothing else, I mean nothing else in the lizard book, you'll be just keeping pace with ogres, chaos, elves, dwarves, etc.


    -Matt
     
  8. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    Disclaimer: if OP feels I wary for topic I will move this elsewhere. PM me and it will be so.

    so...I had my first "real" game with a trog yesterday.

    My reason for saying "real" is because I used him so dreadfully wrong the first time.
    This time I didnt: I like the bastard.

    I played this list, which comes at 2400pts on the mark and fits ETC restrictions.

    Lords

    Slann Mage-Priest
    - Dispel Scroll
    - Ironcurse Icon
    - Wandering Deliberations
    - Battle standard - Skavenpelt Banner


    Core


    10x Skink Skirmisher
    -Javelin and Shield

    10x Skink Skirmisher
    -Javelin and Shield

    10x Skink Skirmisher
    -javelin and Shield

    10x Skink Skirmisher
    -Javelin and Shield

    20x Skink
    22x Skink
    22x Skink

    Special

    7x Kroxigor

    7x Kroxigor

    30x Temple Guard
    - Musician
    - Revered Guardian
    - Standard Bearer

    Rare

    Troglodon


    WHAT IS THIS?!?!!?!?
    No Salamanders? a Trog instead of a Steg?!......NO SCAR VETS!??!
    HERESY!

    shhh shhh shhhhh *pats on head*, its gonna be o...kay!


    DEPLOYMENT
    The Slann obviously goes with the TG (horde), with a krox unit on each flank.
    The skinks gets placed as flank and middle redirectors.
    Trog goes on whatever flank that most likely will need the occasional magic missile (keep him within 12'')

    TACTIC
    Pure lawnmower: pick a target for your TG, let the krox hinge on and follow until they get in charge range of something juicy.
    Skinks swarm the way they usually do...so heres the shiny part:

    THE TROGS JOBS

    1. Keep him (given its a male) close enough for his Roar to work on TG and krox, but only use it for the TG's sake, Krox are bonus not primary.

    2. His shooting attack Supports the skinks on the flank. After yesterdays game I no longer neglect this.
    Its not a game winner, but he DOES hit ..remember its 4+ if you are within 9'' of the enemy unit.
    And at S5 with poison, it can actually put a little extra hurt on whatever armoured unit the skinks are cushioning
    (cushioning: The act of filling something with needles, darts, javelins and other sharp pointy objects)

    3. Your Slann is looking the other way because of his TG's heavy combat-itch. Trog serves as eyes on whatever target the slann is not able to point at, and since you picked WD you got tons of neat magic missiles, where two in particular ALSO works well for dealing with messy flankjobs:

    Searing for those armoured fools
    Leech for that monster outside his Generals bubble.

    4. Speaking of generals bubble: you have a flank unit monster who causes terror. Re-mem-ber .....this.

    MAGIC
    roll Earthblood every turn to buff your frenzied killing block and heal a wound on a Kroxigor (there will be one)

    Wyssans: This will probably go on your TG everytime. If you cast it for defensive power on krox it is my point of view that you are wasting dice, as Iceshard is cheaper, is valid no matter the strength of the attacker and works well with the fact that Krox cause fear (RE-MEM-BER...)
    so
    Iceshard: used for combat (..THIS!) or for saving your units from ranged attacks.

    Miasma: use it to even WS, lower M (for pursuit) equally to save your CC army from ranged attacks.

    The other 4 is magic missiles that speaks for themselves, and oh boy do they work well with the Troglodon, here credited with its full name.

    Honestly, the options he grant is well worth his 200pts. While I truthfully believes this it still feels like an overprice do to him being a rare choice and do to his survive-ability.
    I believe his place either should be in Special, or be granted the option of the Oracle carrying some protective upgrades or items.....those thoughts aside, looking at what we have, I must take everything bad back Ive ever said of the Trog, and go back to my original view
    (http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/troglodon-this-is-why-its-great.12344/)

    He is awesome if you dont make the mistake of trying to get him to do a Steg or carnos job. Thats not what he does.

    He IS your Slanns priceless extra set of eyes, he IS the big guy behind the cocky skink
    and
    he IS the guy who combined with the Skavenpelt banner makes your Templeguard able to overpower even
    white-lions......

    Try it or not. Keep using your Skink Priests if you wish, im gonna go pick up a box of pale death as soon as my poor unemployed self gets the cash for it :p
     
    Scalenex likes this.
  9. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Why do you do this to me?
     
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  10. Sandrockkai
    Skink

    Sandrockkai Member

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    Thanks for this! The Troglodon was the first model from the new release that I painted and it mostly just sits in my carrying case looking incredible. Now there's a chance for it to sit on the table looking incredible!
     
  11. VampTeddy
    Terradon

    VampTeddy Member

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    This is awesome ^^

    I didn't wanna go so detailed into it, and merely make some suggestions!

    You did number 3 perfectly! (the PF list).

    I completely forgot to include the arcane vassal part as part of my brainstorming / thesis's but it's definetely an important part!

    I also believe that the exact strat you mention is one of the good Troggie strats, in fact i believe all of those i mentioned could be viable.

    You don't need to invest heavily on it to work, you just need something to get PF hits with high strength! Going all in however makes your deployment that much more robust, since your opponent has a harder time adapting to the flank with the krox on it, if both flanks have krox, and you deployed your trog last!

    I like your addition! all about making the Troglodon viable here! and lists written around it is certainly a good shot at that!

    NOTE - The troglodon is a BUFF wagon, that has less than average stats, of EVERYTHING! it does marginal magic, itty bitty fighting, itty bitty terror, itty bitty stomps, itty bitty tough, itty bitty shoot, and combat turning roar.

    Warhammer is a game in which that all important combat can occur, and if i for 200 pts can swing that all important combat in my favor? i'm all in for that!
     
  12. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    What exactly?
    One gets the impression that you just bought the box and got doubtful on what to make from it :D

    I take it gets to stay :D
     
  13. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    I think it's a really great model, but it's 500kr for a model that so far has been considered subpar and yet I could probably easily be swayed into buying it lol.

    Alright. When I get my vecation money or whatever they're called I'll probably pick up a box of this "mighty" beast along with some templeguards. Besides I could use a better OB model on foot.

    In the meantime I'll continue my paint quest :smug:
     
  14. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Awesome is an understatement. You came up with a strong list to incorporate two of my biggest non-painting goals. 1) Incorporate a Troglodon successfully and 2) help me justify the purchase of my obscene number of Kroxigor. You topped it off with a WD Slann, my favorite Slann type in the new book.

    Bravo P-P, bravo.
     
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  15. Anton_S
    Temple Guard

    Anton_S Member

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    We had a Troglodon in a 10,000 points battle last Saturday. Despite running 5 cohorts of Warriors and 2 of Temple Guard, the ideal opportunity to use the PF boost never came around. We mostly used it for arcane vassal, channelling and the odd thunderstomp. Late in the game, we were able to move it up to contest an objective so I guess it was ok. Can't help but think how much more useful another Stegadon would have been when we charged the flank of that Chaos Warrior unit. Still, it was pretty fun to play with. At least it gets to do things in every phase.
     
  16. SSquirrel
    Jungle Swarm

    SSquirrel New Member

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    It's good to have goals :)
     
  17. Dog On Todd
    Kroxigor

    Dog On Todd Member

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    I had a similar experience in my first attempt at using the Troglodite.

    Threw him on a flank with Krox and a cohort. He had 3 attempts to shoot chaff with the acid, missed every time. Combined fire with the skinks could have been great. Really utilized the channel ability, so that was a huge help. Once in combat I let loose the roar, stomped, and aimed a lot of spells at the unit. He lasted a turn because I got enough hexes off. The roar added an extra 2 wounds, and I was able to kill my opponent's hero.

    So all in all: not bad. Cheaper than taking a skink priest for chanelling + a stegger (which I use to compare in terms of utility). But the amount of support I had to provide it so it could affect the board might have off-balanced this.

    Would take again if I was looking to channel, I was taking Kroxigor, and I didn't feel like taking sallies (which I don't like as much anymore).
     
  18. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    ! I'm getting enough money back from tax to just get a trog, so I'm doing just that.. Next month. I'm already excited :3
     
  19. Man0waR
    Kroxigor

    Man0waR Member

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    Unit Rating of Troglodon's Benefit:
    A+: Oldblood
    A: Scarvet
    B: Kroxigors & Templeguard
    C: Saurus Warriors

    So its obvious Troglodon should run along a Cold One Bus.
     
  20. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    OB with 3A sword and the roar should generate roughly 10-11 attacks. How about going all out with templeguards, a slann and the razorbanner? That'll be 37 attacks bumped to 49 from the front rank of a horde <.<

    A lovely thought, but probably nothing more than that :)
     

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