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8th Ed. Viability of large krox units in 8th edition?

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Pinktaco, Nov 17, 2013.

  1. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    I'm in no way an experienced player as some of you are, but I like to try out new things and not just follow what most considers the most competitive/ideal setup. I want to learn, by myself, what can and cannot be effective.

    So, with that said I've now tried to field a large unit of kroxigors twice now. Both times at 11 models, with a champion.

    Against infantry units they'll throw out 24 S7 attacks and 4 stomps. 12 of those attacks can generate PF and the unit have a decent movement. They lack in WS, Armour Toughness and always strikes last, due to the weapon. WS and Toughness can we somewhat (if we want to) deal with, through magic, however, at any rate these guys can lose 9 wounds and still attack at full strenght. They can take a cannon ball to the face, hit last and still out-beat most units. They don't have a larger foot-print than 5 COR, but they're (obviously) quite deep.
    The unit comes at 3 ranks, so even if they should lose one, but get a charge, they come with 2 CR from ranks and one from charge.

    One of the biggest issue, I suppose, is the fact that should an opponent get Purple Sun, Dwellers Below or anything of that sort of it'll ruin your day. They're quite an expensive unit and if they're dead before they do their thing you've just lost yourself 1/5th of your army (@2500pts). Don't do that.

    Unless you're playing against something with Mark of Nurgle or a WS6 they'll hit at 4+. Against most things they'll then proceed to wound at 2+ and +1 AS units will save at 5+. Unless my math is wrong (please feel free to correct me) they'll do roughly 6.6 wounds (without PF) at full strenght and agaisnt +1 armoured units. Anything with 3+ saves will take an average of 10 wounds. Against infantry they'll do some extra.

    Obviously they are less manoeuvrable than say two ancient stegadons, but on the same time they come with 33 wounds vs 10. 24 S7, 4S5 attacks and PF vs 2 x D6 + impact hit (D3 multiple wounds with horns), 6 S6 attacks and 2 D6 S6 thunderstomps. Vs infantry the ancient stegadons have the potential to do more damage than the kroxigors, but from my experience it's hardly a given that you'll do a lot of wounds with thunderstomp (dem 1 rolls will laugh at you lol). The same with PF.

    Obviously the stegs comes with a bunch of skinks and the giant blowpipes, however against the targest we should aim these at they really doesn't come into play.

    Personally I think that I might take these a couple of times more, but I don't suppose they're highly competitive, especially due to people 6-dicing uber spells, but these guys aren't as vulnerable to cannons as a couple of stegs. Also, even though such a large unit is taken, one could still field a large unit of templeguards, a unit of cameleon skinks, 600-700pts core, a cheap slann and an oldblood. Or whatever you feel like taking.

    It's a huge investment, but they can be a lot of fun if you're seeking something to smash your opponents face in with a lot of S7.

    One could consider to instead have 2 units with krox or a smaller unit of krox and a unit 1-2 units of skrox, but personally I think the strenght of these is due to having enough wounds to come into CC at full strenght and then deal those 24 attacks, instead of 6 krox losing one or two before they hit combat and then they "only" deal 12-15 attacks.

    So.. Have any of you tried fielding more than 6 kroxigors in one unit? Or is this just utter nuts only meant for friendly games? :D

    *This isn't a tactica in any way, just my view and experience with them and an open discussion about your thoughts.
     
  2. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    glad someone brought this up, have had the same idea ever since we got that S7.

    I haven't tried it (as I only have 6 of the guys..) but I would like to hear peoples experience with it.

    My 2cents of thoughts though:

    why go ranks and not width?
    By putting 3 guys in the back rank you lose 9 attacks, surely they would could generate more than the static 2CR (if going up against a unit big enough to utilize of course.

    I can see the use of ranks but remember: 3wounds and you lose the 3rd rank anyway, as it needs 3 models to keep it.
     
  3. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    I just figured they'd take up a lot of space, I suppose. :)
     
  4. Mr Phat
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    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    if you are worried about space but want the optimal I think you should run them 4 wide.

    thats 12+1 from frontrank (+ a couple of PF attacks)
    and 12 from back rank.

    thats around 25 S7 attacks + 4 stomps + PF

    I realise that you wont get that much in contact with smaller-width blocks or monsters
    but with monsters your probably gonna trash them just the same as they dont have ranks either, and smaller blocks get outgrinded pretty quickly unless they are miles deep and then you wont break their steadfast anyway.
     
  5. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

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    I think there may be some confusion here.

    I think Pinktaco was advocating running his 11 krox in ranks of 4-4-3. But it was slightly confusing, because he also said if they lost a rank, they would still have +2 CR from ranks.

    I think I read something similar in his battle report from earlier...so just to clarify, in case there is confusion on this point: You only get combat resolution for ranks beyond the first, up to a maximum of +3. So a unit of 11 krox arranged 4-4-3 gets +2 CR from ranks, down to +1 as soon as a model dies.
     
  6. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    I'm just 100% sure I've read somewhere that the first rank also gave CR. My bad though, however, I'll just look it up. :)

    Oh, right. It says "extra ranks" so that must mean after the first rank. Oh well. I dunno what I've about then, when I looked for it.
     
  7. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

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    p.52 of the BRB:

     
  8. Eladimir
    Salamander

    Eladimir New Member

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    If your going to invest that many points in that unit getting life or light to support that unit would go a long way. Speed of light or buffed +4 toughness would do a world of good.
     
  9. olderplayer
    Chameleon Skink

    olderplayer New Member

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    There are a few reasons for running two ranks by 3 wide or at most 2 ranks by 4 wide.
    1. This unit is often most effective in the flank or charging a chariot or single model that is hard to kill. Such single units are often only 40mm to 60 mm wide, having a unit 3 wide and two depp will max attacks. Against a flank, the number of attacks will be lost as the unit being flanked is depleted.
    2. Any more gets to be too expensive to run and crowds out other units that are needed in a balanced army (same issue I found with running wider and larger chaos ogre, troll units and most ogre units). The unit is still vulnerable to purple sum and magic and shooting (especially with RBTs making a comeback in high elf and dark elf armies).
    3. Extra ranks are effective, especially in flanking, and you don't lose attacks (except maybe some supporting attacks running two ranks) and can always consider combat reforms or reforms to gain width when appropriate.
    4. It is much easier to wheel and get around when 3 wide or 4 wide than wider with a lot of other units and terrain on the table. This is especially true if one uses 5 wide and 2 deep skink cohort units for controlling movement phases (redirectors, poison shooting, bait and flee, etc.). Krox units 3 wide can often charge through the gaps (can ignore 1" between units rule when charging) but the skink units can still block/redirect charges by cav units (except bretts) and hordes .
    5. If you run a larger unit, then you need to be six wide in order to allow a third rank of attacks. That ends up being too expensive in pracitice and too wide in practice to work with.

    Except for cannons and direct hits from stone throwers, lore of beasts signature spell of +1T is often enough to reduce the effectiveness of most shooting, although +2T is ideal .

    If you run only 4 to 6, you can deploy wide if facing cannon balls and simialar line shots and horde units and narrow otherwise in most instances., so one can be flexible.
     
  10. Pinktaco
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    I think I'd go life. The krox only benefit from the WS buff, not initiative. So I would prefer them to have T6 because if you're going 4 x 2 you'll still be rocking enough attacks for WS not to be THAT important, however, a T6 would mean that a lot of targets would be wounding on 6+, som 5+. With life you can also give back wounds, get regeneration and cast dwellers below.

    I think for this sort of army Life would definiately be worth considering.
     
  11. Mr Phat
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    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    Im a High Magic Fanboy.

    Hand of glory might not boost their T but WS 4 (at least) is pretty good. Also to give your meat-scale-wall with bad breath a potential movement 9 is also rather usefull, not to mention that boosted initiative might save their buttoms from a Terrorgheist the turn before they chop him up.

    Apothesis will heal those guys back up pretty fine, potentially a model per pop.

    Walk between worlds sets them up for flank charges which makes extra toughness less important.

    Tempest cast on a unit about to charge your Kroxs will save many of them: -1 to hit against a "kill or be killed" unit of gigantic axe-wielding crocodiles? Ill leave them for a turn!
     
  12. Mr Phat
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    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    oh,, WD might be an option too:


    Wyssans, Iceshard and melkoths are 3 good backupspells for these guys.
     
  13. Pinktaco
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    In this case I think it's a matter of skills tbh.

    Why? Because with Life you can get +2 (+4) toughtness, regen 5+ (4+), resurrection along with dwellers bellow and the ability to get rid of miscast with the rol of a 2+.

    Compared to getting better WS (not as good as better toughness in this case), better movement + instantly move your unit into position along with the other spells that are also good, but not defensive in the same way.

    A good player can use High Magic to get his smash unit into position and use that to his advantage. And yes, I realize you can heal, but it's nowhere near the same as with Life (regen, heal, resurrect).

    Life, however, is more safe (for the inexperienced player). Getting +2T off will make you lose less wounds vs S4 than if you have WS4 and you can always heal units back to life (I make it sound so easy lol).

    I'm not going to say that one is better than the other, but the way I see it (will have to test this) Life is easier to use than High magic.

    Obviously it is also a matter of preference - one might even just use Light.
     
  14. Man0waR
    Kroxigor

    Man0waR Member

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    I dont see where you can give regeneration on Krox unit. Or you plan to go with the slann within the krox hode?

    I dont think you will get in 4 dice all the spells you want, if you were good with getting 1 or 2, but you are assuming getting 4. Thorne of vines / Dwellers Bellow / Earthblood / Stoneflesh (or whatever).

    I dont recall on luck to design the support to a key unit which is a Krox Horde.

    Better High magic or WD.


    If you are going for support the horde, light is the way to go. Speed of light will make the horde just awesome. hitting on 3's wounding on 2's. GG.
     
  15. Pinktaco
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    Oh right I keep forgetting. You are right of course, my bad :)
     
  16. Pinktaco
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    I found out why I messed it up.

    In the faq it says that when counting for being steadfast you count the first rank too. So naturally I assumed it was the same when counting CR, I mean why not? Anyway I got it sorted now. :)
     
  17. TheLizardKing
    Jungle Swarm

    TheLizardKing New Member

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    Life would be better for healing. Apotheosis won't bring back dead models.
     
  18. Asamu
    Saurus

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    Would go with 3-4 wide with at least 2 additional models behind to compensate for striking last.

    So 8-9 at 3 wide, and 10-12 at 4 wide, but never go more than 4 wide unless you want to horde, but that is inefficient for ASL monstrous Infantry in many cases. with MI, i've seen and had the best results running 3 wide with 3-5 ranks. minimizing contact seems better in most cases than maximizing it because you get less benefit from running wider (in most situations), than your opponent, especially if you are striking last, because every 3 wounds is a loss in attacks, while you have to do 10-20 wounds to start causing a loss of attacks for your opponent. (of course there are exceptions, but in general, this is what I have seen and experienced).
     
  19. Mr Phat
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    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    I know they dont seem competitive on paper but oh dear Old One have they felt so on the table.

    They benefit insanely from PF, I actually think that of all the things in our book they are the one who is awarded most by it.
    Whatever of the favorite lores you use you can utilize kroxigor CC, either by protecting them or having them hit with better accuracy.

    In short: they maul things.

    Steam tank things
    Dragon things
    frozen Phoenix-things (even with -1S thtey still wound on 4+, and the support rank stil gets to wound on 3+ as they are not in contact.)

    remember two things:

    1.Use the stomps when you can as they tend make up for the lack of CR against infantry blocks.
    2. your opponent actually fear these guys, and if not actually respects them more than most LM players do.

    I am gonna use them more often from now one
    and am out to buy a whole lot of them with the intention of running several units
     
  20. Pinktaco
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    I'm happy that I'm not the only one who've played with these guys like that. However, they do have some weaknesses. They're rather expensive at that amount,they don't pack the best defensive stats and they don't do well against large blocks of elite units.

    So 500pts of kroxigors can be quite expensive if your opponents doesn't have what you want these guys to take down. For instance - I'd never take these against a Dwarfen player. So personally I think the "these guys aren't competitive enough" aspect comes from the fact that these guys aren't good at everything, just extremely good at certain things. So if the right match-up isn't the you potentially have a 500pts block of "nothing". Obviously getting them into the flank of anything will hurt, but they're also a lot less manouvreable at 3 x 3 or 4 x 3 or whatever you decide.

    One day though I'm going to try them with Hand of Glory against my empire friend.

    Anyway even though they're expensive it's not as if you cannot get a decent army. For instance you can get:

    - Slann w/ BSB + dispel scroll.
    - OB w/ armour of destiny, dawnstone, CO and GW.

    - 625 pts of cores + 50pts of skink cohort for the frog.
    - 10 kroxigors.
    - 30 templeguards
    - 8-10 cameleon skinks
    - 2 salamanders.

    It's just something I thought of so I dunno if the point match a 2500pts limit, but it should be possible. THe slann doesn't have high magic, but he can choose somehting like life.

    So it's definately possible to have some fun with these without completely gimping the rest of your army.
     

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