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8th Ed. Vs skaven

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Baggies, Apr 15, 2012.

  1. Baggies
    Saurus

    Baggies Member

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    His guys got an upcoming battle with my brother, quite an epic battle at 2750 points. Now he always Feinstein a doom wheel which I struggle with!! This time he is fielding two, what do people think is the best way to deal with these? I have only defeated it once and that was by making it flee and running it down with coldones!!
     
  2. Turtleneck
    Cold One

    Turtleneck New Member

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    enough poison shot..

    what magic lore do u chose with slan, maybe do some damage spells on it
    attack it with a scar vet
     
  3. Baggies
    Saurus

    Baggies Member

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    Usually use life!! Mite use death this time tho! I do have an old blood in this battle actually
     
  4. Vallek
    Saurus

    Vallek New Member

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    double doomwheel and not double abomination? You're lucky your brother likes to play nice lol.

    Now, people on these forums will nearly always give the same advice for just about any problem unit "just throw more skinks at it." and most of the time this is sound advice. Sadly, I'm not sure if they are aware that the doomwheel has a 4+ armor save and three ranged attacks at better range than the skinks.

    A few things to remind your brother of that makes the doomwheel less scary:

    #1: In ANY phase that the doomwheel takes a wound it must roll to see if it goes out of control. So a skink shot that lands on the shooting phase, a direct damage spell in the magic phase, and potentially a wound due to dangerous terrain in the movement phase will all cause an out of control test. But, not a melee strike in the CC phase as it specifically says that being locked in CC prevent an out of control test.

    #2: I see this one a lot, make sure your brother knows that the 2d6 attacks the doomwheel makes in CC are at S2. It only gets d3 attacks at the full S6. If you look on the profile it specifically shows that the 2d6 attacks are coming from the crew, not the wheel.

    #3: Zzzzap! bolts always target the nearest unit, friend or foe. So if he has a unit of clanrats closer than your units then he must target the clanrats. He can stop himself by making a leadership test but the doomwheel only has a leadership of 7. That is a 50/50 chance the bolts are going to hit his own units.

    As an experienced skaven player there are a few things that worry me when fielding the doomwheel, which I will now share with you:

    Cavalry: Not for the large AS, but the large movement. The doomwheel is actually a lot like our ancient stegadon. We can stay back a little and pelt with shots but we really shine when we land a charge and get all those impact hits. That is basically an identical scenerio. If you land the charge against the doomwheel instead of vice versa you take a lot of it's power away while laughing off the S2 hits.

    Monsters: Lets face it, monsters are freakin brutal. What do Lizardmen have that would constitute a monster good for taking down doomwheels? Why a plain Jane stegadon of course. Bolt thrower shots for while you're closing the gap (which can cause the doomwheel to go out of control) and if you land a charge you deny him impact hits as well as putting down some impact hits yourself. If you are willing to pony up a bit more points than a skink chief on an ancient stegadon with the stegadon war-spear will obliterate a doomwheel on a charge.. but also cost roughly twice as much and eat hero points.

    Warmachines: They hit hard and make things go boom. Again we are back to the stegadon, our only real warmachine as a moving bolt thrower.

    So, in summary, due to the doomwheel's nasty multiple wounds (d6) from it's lightning I would suggest a combination of skinks to try and get some hurt on them with potential redirecting combined with CoC or, if you go lore of life, a big fat saurus unit that you bump to T6-8. Throw things at it that are a threat without letting him capitalize with his multi-wound attacks. Remember, each wound only affects one model, then said wound gets multiplied. If it strikes a model with only one wound then it can only take one wound and multiplying doesn't matter. Sending units of tough one wound models and shooting that can get around the high toughness will save the day.
     
  5. Baggies
    Saurus

    Baggies Member

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    Wow thanks for the reply mate appriciate it. i didnt know about the out of control test the doom wheel had to take. that could be interesting. i am taking an ancient steg with the skink cheif on it and the war-spear. Just got to hope i can get the charge on him n not vice versa. i also am fielding 32 skink skirmishers (3 dif units) so will try and out move it n get round the back. and 8 coc so should have enough to take them out. I just hope he isnt fielding his vermin lord, i dont think he is, i think hes bringing thot the unclean and ikit claw, any advice on how to deal with those guys. He only just got them and apparently they are bad ass.
     
  6. Vallek
    Saurus

    Vallek New Member

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    I've actually found the Vermin lord to be lack luster in 8th edition. He can't be the army general, he can't join a unit, and he only has a 5+ ward save. Total that up and he is a skink's bitch. Make him drown in poison.

    With how killing blow works Throt is only worrying if he goes after salamanders or razordons.. otherwise he just causes multiple wound (d3) against larger targets (stegadons, carnosaur, kroxigor ect.) Any enemy wounded by his whip suffers a -2 to leadership, thats really the only big scare from Throt. Keep in mind, if Throt marches or goes through a round of combat he must make a leadership test or devour a model in a unit with him.. oddly enough this INCLUDES rat ogres. If he is fleeing he automatically fails this test and devours a model. If he is the only model left standing he takes an automatic wound with no regeneration allowed. Any giant rat or rat ogre units within 12" of him can use his leadership as if he were the army general and he counts as a packmaster.. so more often than not he is with giant rats or rat ogres.

    Throt is a bit of a wild card as tactics vary based on what unit he is with. If he has giant rats then just throw some salamander attacks at his unit.. really any template, exploit the small bases. Unless Throt has a big multi-wound beasty to throw his attacks at he is only threatening due to his -2 leadership attack. If you can avoid that you're golden. If he is fielded with rat ogres then you want saurus or temple guard to lock with them. hitting on 3-4+ and wounding on 3-4+ with no armor.. you'll rip them up and they are pricey point wise.

    Ikit claw is just a warp lightning fiend. He throws the spell really well though he is only a level 3 wizard. Most people see him as a hell of a point sink due to the fact he can only ever be level 3 and eats lord points. Other than that he is about as strong as a scar-vet, he ignores armor saves, has a 3+ armor save and 5+ ward save, and once per game he can fire off a warpfire thrower shot. His glaive has a bound spell in it that only hits about as hard as warp lightning and has a chance to hurt him.. so not much to worry about.

    Tactics to take out Ikit are fairly standard honestly. Wizard that can fight fairly well with a few tricks but costing a jaw dropping 395 points. He is most likely gonna stick that insanely pricey model in a fat bunker so spank it with dwellers below. Lore of life is a hell of a thing for skaven to fight.. they like fielding huge units that only have a strength of 3 average. So a successfully cast dwellers below should wipe out half of any unit you throw it at, which should force a panic test. If possible throw 4-6 dice at the spell with +1 power dice from rumination. Your chances of throwing irresistible force is fairly high while also making it really hard to dispell if you don't. Always keep throne of vines up to defer the miscast.. and/or take cupped hands to force Ikit to take miscast instead of you.. always funny.
     
  7. Baggies
    Saurus

    Baggies Member

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    thanks again, i think this is going to be an epic battle!! im going to have to review my magical items as i have given my slann 3 arcane items which i believe is a big no no.
     
  8. Vallek
    Saurus

    Vallek New Member

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    Correct, you can only have 1 arcane item per hero/lord and I usually put them in this order for my Slann

    #1 Plaque of Tepok: An extra spell in the lore for very few points. Take this instead of Loremaster as it is cheaper and provides nearly the same benefit. This is an all purpose arcane item, works against any enemy while using any lore.

    #2 Cupped Hands: Not as useful wiith lore of life since if you land Throne of Vines you're nearly immune to miscast anyway. It is also very good to use when facing Ogres since they will inevitably use the hellheart and try to force you to miscast.

    #3 Power Scroll: As an opposing player once said to me "Lore of Death and Power Scroll are like playing dodgeball with a live grenade.. someone is gonna die, the only question is 'who?'" Use against undead, ogres, orcs, other lizardmen, and anything else that doesn't have a stellar initiative to roll an empowered purple sun at only casting difficulty 13 (not good against skaven)

    Now, on to the skink priest arcane items.

    #1 Cube of Darkness: Acts like a dispell scroll but on a roll of 4+ you end all remains in play spells and END THE MAGIC PHASE. Throw that at the first spell and have a chance to just flat out end your opponents phase.. great for when your opponent throws 10+ on winds of magic.

    #2 Dispell Scroll: Hard to beat the classics

    #3 Forbidden Rod: One time use, d6 extra power dice but causes d3 wounds to the user. Slap it on a level 1 skink and watch him pop to give you a truly ungodly magic phase.
     
  9. Baggies
    Saurus

    Baggies Member

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    im going to take the lore of life so i think ill take the tepok instead of the loremaster. im going to take the focused rumination and unfathomable presence as most of skaven attack especially ranged are magical. Im fielding an oldblood, do ou think bane head or carnosaur pendant will be better?
     
  10. Baggies
    Saurus

    Baggies Member

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    ill post my full army list and see what you think. im just re doing it for the fourth time.
     
  11. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

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    Lore of Life will not help against the Hellheart. The Hellheart causes a roll on the miscast table without the actual miscast. Cupped hands will allow you to transfer the result of the roll though.


    As far as the Cube of Darkness and Forbidden Rod go, I take both of them in all games above 2k. Usually, I will take the Cube, a dispel scroll, and the Forbidden Rod. Those items allow the Slann to dominate the opponents magic phase by robbing him of casting dice (when there is no IF). The Forbidden Rod can turn that poor magic phase (3 dice total) into a potential 9 dice. I can sacrafice a skink priest for that.

    When I take this many priests, I do not even usually try to get any heavens spells off (unless I have 12 dice).
     
  12. Baggies
    Saurus

    Baggies Member

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    Right here we go this is my final army list for against skaven.

    LORDS

    Slann Mage Priest Lore of Life

    General
    The Focused Rumination
    The Becalming Cogitation
    Plaque of Topek
    Banner of Swiftness
    Divine Plaque of Protection

    Saurus Oldblood

    Great Weapon
    Shield
    Light Armour
    Potion of toughness
    Aura of Quetzl

    HEROS

    Skink Priest

    Dispel Scroll
    Cloak Of Feathers

    Skink Chief

    War Spear
    Ancient Stegadon

    CORE (under 25% due to having no more core but have been let off)

    25 Saurus Warriors with Spears

    10 skink Skirmishers with blow pipes

    10 Skink Skirmishers with blow pipes

    12 skink skirmishers with javelin and shield

    SPECIAL

    20 Temple Guards with The sword of swift slaying (does this mean whole unit gets attack first or just the champ) and the Wailing Banner

    8 Cold Ones with Jaguar Standard

    Rare

    2x sallies (one is razordon but again ive been allowed to us it as sallie as same points cost)

    What do ya think mate, do you t hink it will withstand against Skaven.
     
  13. Vallek
    Saurus

    Vallek New Member

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    Sorry if I was unclear, though those were two different sentences. I was saying lore of life is good to prevent miscasts so cupped hands isn't that stellar if your using that lore.. but Cupped hands is always good against ogres for the very reason you said.
     
  14. Vallek
    Saurus

    Vallek New Member

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    That army list looks fine by my standards. Becalming Cogitation and Focused Rumination never disappoint and are my staple combo on any Slann.

    I will say this, however. It all comes down to how your friend plays. I know my tactics but skaven are incredibly flexible and if they want to they can actually outfit a warlord so good at combat it blows apart ogre tyrants. At the same time some people like focusing on the skaven magic, as the Lore of Ruin is only tied by Lore of Tzeentch for most powerful magic missle.

    Further more some people love running the screaming bell while others, like me, prefer to leave the bell at home for anything less than 2500 points. The best thing I can offer you for advice is to be fluid. Know what your facing and have many plans to deal with it. Rigid battle plans fall apart but when you are ready to act and react to everything your opponent has with everything you have left you can pull surprising victories.
     
  15. Baggies
    Saurus

    Baggies Member

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    Cheers for all the advice mate, looking forward to the battle!
     
  16. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

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    Good luck. The sword of swiftness will only apply to the unit champion.
     
  17. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    There is some good tips on Skaven in here so I stuck this in the 8th ed Tactica index. If anyone wants to add any more details about fighting Skaven in general this will do well as an informal Tactica.
     
  18. Baggies
    Saurus

    Baggies Member

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    Lizard man victory points 2348
    Skaven victory points 1142

    I love the lore of life!!!!
     
  19. Vallek
    Saurus

    Vallek New Member

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    congratulations on your victory!

    As much as I hate to be a traitor to my fellow rats... wait, no, we betray each other all the time.. more warpstone for me! Huzzah!

    Did the advice help? What were some tactics you'd use again (other than Lore of Life naturally)?
     
  20. Baggies
    Saurus

    Baggies Member

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    The main reason i won was his very very very very poor rolling, three IF roles with ikit claw in a row destroying pretty much the whole of the unit he was in.

    With the left flank doomwheel i had my ancient steg oppisite it, n held n held when he got a liitle too close but to far to charge, i moved it side ways and hid it behind his horde of 60 clannrats, it then moved within 2 inches of my steg so i charged it. killed it with 2d6+1 impact hits.

    with the other doomwheel i engaged my 8 cold ones, he would kill 4 or 5 each turn, but i kept bringing them back with regrow (d6+1 due to te other spell) he eventually kiled them but not until 6th turn.

    the other turning point was my saurus went up againt his storm vermin inc death master and tretch, took no casulties due to t6, killed a lot of them and he fleed i pusued and killed the rest.

    And another big turning point dwellers below on his 60 horde of clan rats killing 37. oldblood killed his ogres with throt, his canon blew its self up and i killed all his plague monks. so he was very unlucky, but i think i used some good tactis, especially the steg, the coldones and my magic phases.
     

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