1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The April Poetry Contest has opened for voting! For more information, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

Tutorial Warriors of Chaos Tactica (detailed)

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Scalenex, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,596
    Likes Received:
    1,699
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Part One: Warriors of Chaos versus Lizardmen


    Marks of Chaos: Many units can take marks of Chaos. They are costed per model now instead of per unit meaning giant hordes of Marked units now cost more on average. Marks of Chaos also affect what characters can and can’t do in terms of units they can join and magical items they can take, but that’s more detail specific than LM players need to know. Costs of Marks are scaled, so nastier units tend to have to pay more for their Marks than weaker ones.

    Khorne provides Frenzy. I expect to see this one often.

    Tzeentch provides 6+ Ward saves (or plus one to an existing Ward save) and allows wizards with the Mark to reroll 1s when channeling.

    Mark of Nurgle gives a -1 to hit for enemies in base contact. This is probably the most powerful Mark and it certainly is the most powerful mark against Lizardmen because our units are already outclassed in terms of WS versus the Warriors of Chaos. In some cases this will require us to roll 6s to score any hits!

    Mark of Slaanesh lets the unit automatically pass Fear, Terror, and Panic tests (this requires the majority of the models to have the rule so a single character can’t join a unit and bestow this). This seems like the weakest mark, but it’s also cost half of what the others do. Note that we LM players tend to field a lot of units that cause Fear or Terror and we like to trigger Panic tests with Salamanders so don’t write this Mark off as useless.


    Eye of the Gods: Most characters and unit champions have the ability to roll on the Eye of the Gods table. The most common way to trigger a roll on the table is for the character to win a challenge OR inflict the last wound on a monster.

    Most of the benefits on the table provide a relatively minor stat boost. There is a small chance for the model being removed and replaced with a Chaos Spawn or the model gaining a Mark of Chaos or morphing into a Demon Prince. Whether the player gets a Chaos Spawn or Demon Prince, the character counts as slain. The new model will not give you any victory points for being slain, but you get the victory points for killing the original character. A Demon Prince can continue serving as general or BSB if the character it replaced was one before.

    Models with this special rule have to declare or accept a challenge at every opportunity. Beware the unintended consequences of feeding your enemies sacrificial unit champions, you might make them stronger! We also have a lot of Monsters in our new book so we should be careful letting our Monsters near enemy characters. Probably safe around unit champions though.


    Chaos Armor: Chaos armor gives its wearer a 4+ Armor save. This is basically so Games Workshop can let the WoC have 4+ armor save while still using two handed weapons.


    Core Units


    Chaos Warriors: Take a Saurus and give him WS5 and I5 and you have your basic Chaos Warrior costing about half again as much per model. A few more points will get them great weapons, halberds or additional hand weapons. All are deadly choices capable of ripping up all of our Core. In relative terms the great weapons will be inefficient for chopping up Skroxigor and highly efficient for chopping up Saurus. Two hand weapons will be less efficient at killing Saurus and highly efficient at chopping up Skinks. Any of the Marks will make the Chaos Warriors nastier still. Their unit Champions qualify for Eye of the Gods. They can take magic banners up to 25 points.


    Chaos Marauders: Rejoice, all ye Forces of Order. Marauders have gone up in price (primarily through equipment and Mark upgrade costs). They have gone from being ludicrously under-costed to being reasonably costed (or unfairly nerfed according to a small minority). They still have WS 4, and I4 so the WEAKEST Chaos troops are not that weak. Champions roll on the Eye of the Gods table when they kill a worthy opponent.

    They can take flails or great weapons (either one will let them wound Sauri on 3+). They can buy shields and/or light armor. They can take Marks of the Gods and their champions qualify for Eye of the Gods. I’m guessing old habits die hard and many WoC will continue to field hordes of these guys and that the Mark of Khorne will remain the old standby. As Lizardmen, Mark of Slaanesh is troublesome because large groups of Marauders are just begging to be burned by Salamanders and I’d personally prefer they panic (I guess Frenzied Marauders won’t panic either until beaten in close combat at which point it’s usually too late to panic them).


    Forsaken: I do not expect these Chaos Spawn-in-training guys to become a popular Core choice because they are 19-21 points each, but they are likely to be the go-to Core soldier for players who like lots of special rules.

    These mutants have the basic statline of Chaos Warriors but they have M6 and D3 for their attack profile. They have Frenzy. They can be upgraded with a blessing of one of the Dark Gods to get Hatred, MR 2, Fear, or Swifstride (in lieu of the usual Marks). They roll to get a different random special ability every turn. It could either be ASL, Armor Piercing, ASF, Poison, Regeneration 5+, or Killing Blow.


    Chaos Chariots: Chariots as a Core unit seems improper for anyone but Tomb Kings. They are tough, but they aren’t overpowered. They enjoy the above average stat lines that most WoC models get (for instance the Chaos horsies have S4 instead of the usual S3), but the chariot is pretty vanilla. AS 3+, 4 wounds, scythed wheels. Like most chariots you want to get the charge on them and deny them the impact hits if Lizardly possible. Since most Warriors of Chaos players have little issue filling up their minimum 25% with nasty Core troops, I’m guessing most generals will not fill their Core with chariots and will instead field the more powerful Gorebeast chariots.


    Marauder Horsemen: Basic Marauder statline on a M8 horse: the hardest hitting Fast Cavalry unit yet seen in all of Warhammer. If you see them in the enemy army, you have to be extra careful with your skirmishing units.

    They can shields and/or light armor (armor negates Fast Cavalry rule however). They can take spears or flails. They can take Marks of the Gods and their champions are subject to Eye of the Gods just like their footslogging cohorts. They are one of two units in the whole army book with a ranged attack! They can take javelins or thrown axes (I doubt this will be common). As LM, we would probably much prefer getting things thrown at us then being run through with spears, but don’t tell the WoC this. They don’t have a lot of practice with ranged attacks. If you can trick your opponent into throwing javelins at your skirmishers instead of running them down, do so.


    Chaos Warhounds: Every army has (or should have) a good chaff unit. The doggies fill the roll nicely. They are pretty much like faster quadruped Marauders without the weapon options. They can be upgraded to have Vanguard making them a threat to our advance troops (especially Salamanders). They can also be upgraded to have poisoned attacks increasing the potency of their unimpressive S3 bites. They can take another upgrade for Scaly Skin 6+ giving them a slight reprieve from the poisoned shooting that Skinks will be sending their way (in a perfect world, all evil hounds have poisoned sticks and darts sent their way).


    Special Units


    Hellstriders of Slaanesh: Did I say Marauder horsemen were the most powerful Fast Cavalry in Warhammer? Hellstriders are basically Marauder Horsemen on far more powerful Steeds. The Steeds cause Fear and have Poisoned magical attacks that are also Armor Piercing. At M10 they are the fastest units that don’t fly. They can take spears or hellscourges. I suspect most players will gravitate towards the latter. These unique weapons give the riders ASF on the first turn of combat and will generally be more effective for carving up the lighter units than spears would be (though if they plan to flank Saurus, the spears will probably serve them better).

    Each time a unit of Hellstriders wipes out a unit in close combat or runs down a fleeing unit, they get stronger (max three units). The first dead units gives them Devastating Charge. The second dead unit adds Stubborn in addition. The third unit gives the unit a 4+ Ward Save. As long as they don’t have the Ward Save, the Hellstriders are glass cannons with only a 5+ armor save protecting them making them from our BS shooting as long as you can keep the Skirmishers and Razordons out of their charge arc. Do NOT let them kill three of your units. Be very careful deploying sacrificial chaff units against the WoC if you see Hellstriders.


    Chosen: Basically they are more expensive Chaos Warriors with WS6. Jokes on you Horn hats! Lizardmen WS is so crappy you only need WS5 to school us! What really sets the Chosen apart is the entire unit makes an Eye of the Gods roll when they arrive on the table and then gets to fudge the roll in their favor by rolling three dice and choosing their favorite two dice. The bonus effect applies to the whole unit unless it would be the top or bottom result in which case it only affects the unit champion (so they can’t turn an entire unit into demon princes or Chaos spawn). They can take magic banners up to 50 points.


    Chaos Knights: Chaos Warriors are nice but they are missing something….I know they should cause Fear, have M7, and AS 1+. Like most knights (except LM of course), they can take lance upgrades. If that’s too vanilla for you. They can take ensorcelled hand weapons. They add +1 to S for damage and inflict magical hits. Sounds badass sure, but after reading this far in the Warriors of Chaos book I’m like “meh I guess it’s okaaaay”.


    Chaos Ogres: Suspiciously similar to Ironguts out of the Ogre book only you can build Chaos Ogres with the same stat lines and equipment for one point less (gnash your teeth Ogre players, Chaos gets all the good stuff!). They can take great weapons or two hand weapons (or in theory a single hand weapon but why be that cheap?). Too vanilla for you? Why not upgrade them with Marks of Chaos. Now that is scary.


    Dragon Ogres: These ogres are stronger, faster, and have better armor saves their footslogging counterparts and are fielded on chariot bases. They are monstrous beasts but I see them playing like Monstrous Cavalry. Dragon Ogres are also fed by lightning. They have a 2+ Ward save against Uranon’s Thunderbolt and Chain Lightning and gain frenzy if they are struck by such an attack, so rein in your Skink Priests if you see these guys. Tempest doesn’t actually mention having lightning in the description so this probably won’t trigger the special ability but you don’t want to try Tempest on them anyway because it won’t hit hard enough.


    Chaos Trolls: Identical statlines and cost to the vanilla trolls the O&G use. The only difference is that Chaos Trolls can buy additional hand weapons (and why wouldn’t they?). For a recap, similar stats to Kroxigor, they have Regeneration 4+. Troll Vomit hits automatically and ignores armor saves but they have to forgo their regular attacks to do it. In most cases, troll vomit is not a mathematically good idea versus LM unless they are fighting Saurus Cavalry, Ancient Stegadons, or Bastilodons. Certainly I would suggest keeping your cowboy Scar Vets away from trolls.


    Chimera: Big monster, gets a bonus when making rear attacks, has Scaly Skin 4+ and causes terror like most monsters in its weight class. They can be upgraded to have a breath weapon, Regeneration, and/or Poisonous attacks. I’m going to assume most players will take all three upgrades most of the time. This seems like a good candidate to throw Skroxigor or Kroxigor at.


    Gorebeast Chariot: Very similar to the vanilla chariot that the WoC can field as a Core option, but I suspect these will be seen more often. For a modest increase in points (and not being Core), a chariot can get a much nastier steed pulling it. Gorebeasts hit harder and more often than horsies. It’s slightly slower but in general hitting power wins out over speed.


    Chaos Warshrine: This thing is weird. It’s a chariot but it has no impact hits and takes dangerous terrain test like as if it were infantry (why did they bother calling it a chariot? I know not). In relative terms, the Warshines are weak in combat compared to the rest of the army (though they have 4+ Ward saves so they are pretty defensively strong). Their primary purpose is to make Eye of the Gods rolls more favorable. All units within 12” can add a third dice to their rolls on the chart and remove a die of their choice. They also have a bound spell which triggers an Eye of the Gods roll for d3 friendly units within 12 inches. It’s too early to tell just how concerned we should be with the Eye of the Gods rule so I’m not sure how to prioritize killing them.


    Rare Units


    Hellcannon: Despite the name, the Hellcannon shoots like a stone thrower now (not sure if it always did or not). That’s good news for Stegadons. The hits are at S10 but it’s harder to get the center hole over a Stegadon than it is to line up a cannon shot. The bad news is for everyone else. The non-center hole hits are S5 which means the Hellcannon can do more than just kill large dinosaurs. It can devastate Saurus blocks too. The hits are magical so being ethereal will not protect your lone Slann. To make matters worse, a single casualty causes an automatic panic test at -1 Ld to the target (so they are better than Salamanders)

    Killing the Hellcannon is very difficult for the First children of the Old Ones. 4+ AS, 5+ T6 and it’s got the monsters and handlers quasi save. That’s too thick skinned for Terradons and Chameleon Skinks to handle. We are hard pressed to deal with it even with spells. It has three weaknesses, and two of them are outside of our control. 1) the Hellcannon cannot move and fire in the same turn and it’s base move is a lowly 3 inches so it might as well be a static artillery piece. 2) the misfire chart is quite severe. Weakness 3 is that it is Initiative 1 so it is somewhat vulnerable to magic attacks that use Initiative tests.

    If you are not packing Shadow or Death, my advice is to ignore the Hellcannon and just try to get in close combat ASAP so it can’t shoot you (sadly close combat is where the rest of the army wants us to be). Perhaps Walk Between Worlds will let us get our heavy hitters into charge range of these things?


    Dragon Ogre Shaggoth: Fights similarly a Carnosaur with better WS, Initiative, and Leadership (but with no d3 wounds). Like the lesser dragon ogres you should not shoot lightning at them.


    Chaos Giant: Exactly the same as O&G and Ogre Kingdom giants with the option to take Marks of the Gods. They work slightly differently than Marks for everyone else (Khorne = +1 Strength, Tzzentch Ward Save 6+, Nurgle +1 T, Slaanesh +1 I). Of all the 200+ point monsters in the WoC army book, this is the only one with little to no saves of any kind. If you see one of these guys, direct your Skink shooting at it, this is clearly the juiciest shooting target the WoC have to offer them.


    Chaos Spawn: Chaos Spawn are cheap monsters. Their main weakness is their random movement. On a high roll they lurch ahead of the main army and are picked off while isolated. On a low roll they arrive too late to help. They can be upgraded to include one of the following: Devastating Charge, S3 Breath weapon, flaming attacks, Poisoned Attacks, or ASF. Their second weakness is that they have no armor save. If there are no giants around, tell your Skinks to shoot the crap out of them. They die pretty easily, but at 50 points apiece it’s not an overwhelming victory for us. If my games with WoC under the last book are any indication, it will be the only points I score before being tabled.


    Skullcrushers of Khorne: In order to sell their expensive monstrous cavalry models, GW makes them very powerful. Take the power of a Chaos Knight and give it a mount that’s S5 (6 on the charge), WS5 with three attacks. Tough, hard hitting, good saves. Nasty. Our best bet to take these down is our new and improved Strength 5 Kroxigor.


    Slaughterbrute: At this point reading the book, I’m getting 200 point monster ennui. I mean don’t Chimera and Shaggoth pretty much fit the same niche here? The one thing that sets these guys apart is their puppet master. At the beginning of the game the Chaos player designates a character per Slaughterbrute to be the puppet master. The Brute uses that characters WS. If the puppet master character dies the Brute goes down to WS 3 (not a huge difference for us) and it becomes subject to random movement with a scatter die. If it hits one of our units it’s a charge like any other time. If it hits an allied unit they stop an inch away and inflict d6+2 hits on the friendly unit. A master-less Brute will stop at the table edge too so unfortunately you can’t kill it’s master in the hope of it wandering off the board and giving you free victory points, but killing the master is still a good idea (not that WoC characters are particularly vulnerable).


    Mutalith Vortex Beast: I like this monster. The Cthulu-esque creature is a nice change of pace. Compared to the Mutalith, the other monsters are a little too Khorn-y looking for my tastes (pun intended). It’s a little less fighty than the other big monsters but it has a bound spell (direct damage 18” range) called Aura of Mutation cast on 5+. Roll a d6 to determine effect and it makes a target take d6 toughness test or suffer that many wounds in addition to an additional effect (which is sometimes beneficial to the target).

    1-Gain Fear for the rest of the game
    2-Gain Stupidity for the rest of the game
    3-Gain +1 to WS, BS, S, T, I, or A determined randomly. Lose -1 to another randomly chosen trait for the rest of the game.
    4-No additional effect, but the spell jumps as Chain Lightning does potentially damaging more units.
    5-No additional effect, but use a scattering small template to determine who is hit
    6-If a casualty is inflicted, the Warriors of Chaos get a free Chaos Spawn nearby (max one per spell).


    Characters


    Character Mounts: WoC have a huge variety of mounts to choose from. Listed from least to greatest. The first two are regular cavalry, the last two are monsters. The rest are monstrous cavalry.

    Barded Chaos Steeds: The only difference between Chaos steeds and most other horses is these hit at S4 and they can’t be taken without barding.

    Steeds of Slaanesh: These are the same very fast nasty magical poisonous steeds of the Fast Cavalry when paired with a character as they are when fielded as their own Special unit.

    Discs of Tzeentch: Basically a flying Cold One with magical attacks. The downside for the WoC is this one can’t join an allied unit so is going to be exposed (like the Flying Skink of Doom only capable of taking a few hits). If Balthasar Gelt’s effectiveness for the Empire is any indication, I’m guessing we’ll see some flying Metal wizards on these disc shaped monsters.

    Palanquin of Nurgle: Technically qualifies as Monstrous Cavalary so it’s a M4 model with Swiftstride (weird huh)? The character is carried on a throne by several Nurglings. It’s slow but it gets 6 WS3 S3 attacks and has four wounds.

    Daemonic Mount: Almost as strong as a Juggernaut. Start with a Cold One, give it an extra attack, make its attacks magical and boost the WS, S, and T by one point.

    Juggaranuts of Khorne: Scary. I thought Empire characters couldn’t ride Demigryphs because it’d be too imbalanced. I was wrong. A Chaos character on a Juggurnaut is far scarier than an Empire character on a giant chicken. Old Ones help us all.

    Manticores: Big nasty monsters. Basically dragons with weaker stats, no breath weapon, and with the addition of Killing Blow. They don’t come with Scaly Skin but they can buy that upgrade for pretty cheap (they can also buy a bonus venomous tail attack that causes multiple wounds and gets bonuses when making Rear attacks). I expect most to buy the armor when facing us because they could be shot up by Skinks easily if they don’t take it.

    Chaos Dragons: They aren’t that different from other dragons except that they have two heads and thus two breath weapons. One head has a basic S4 flaming attack and the other a S2 Breath Weapon that ignores armor saves.


    Chaos Lords and Exalted Heroes: They are tough. They can Chaos Mutations and Powers in addition to their usual magical item allotment. Just assume that if one of these guys fights a Saurus character of similar points, the Saurus will probably lose. Exalted Heroes are the WoC only BSB option.


    Deamon Princes: These guys are Chaos Lords taken up a notch. They only have a 25 point magic item allowance but they can 100 points of mutations/powers. Khorne Princes have +1 Strength on the charge. Tzeentch Princes reroll channeling attempts of and Ward Saves of 1. Nurgle Princes give enemies -1 to hit (at WS 9, this is devastating to every other army), and Slaanesh demons have armor piercing. All Demon Princes have 5+ Ward Saves. Unlike the demons out of the Demon book, they are not Unstable. Non-Khorne Princes can buy up to four Wizard levels at 35 points each.

    Demon Princes are the model to beat. Nearly every Warhammer forum seems to have a lengthy thread that covers both tactical or else people saying they should be comped/banned for fair play. Here is the most recent post on Lustria.


    Chaos Sorcerers: Vanilla wizards with the fighting stats of the Core Chaos Warriors (and the armor too of course). They can take Fire, Death, Metal, or Shadow or one of the three army book lores. As a LM player, Shadow and Death scare me more than the special lores, but I will summarize them because that’s what I like to do. I’ve seen Empire players do great with Metal, since WoC are basically much stronger versions of the Empire, I can imagine Metal would be deadly. Fire Wizards are not allowed to take Marks of Chaos so I doubt we’ll see many of those.


    Lore of Tzeentch: The general theme here is random (will the spell be awesome or sucky? We don’t know). It’s even possible to be hit by an attack spell and come out stronger than before. The downside for LM fighting the Lore of Tzeentch is that the randomness means it’s harder for us to prioritize which spells we should be dispelling and which spells to let through.

    Many of the spells have the Warpflame Special rule. That means in addition to the basic effects, the target unit takes a Toughness save. Failure means d3 wounds with no AS. Success means gain Regeneration 6+ (or improve existing Regeneration if they already have the rule).

    Lore attribute is that the wizard (not the army) gets a bonus power die per 6 rolled while casting a spell.

    Blue Fire of Tzeentch: Signature spell is a 24” magic missile that inflicts d6 Strength d6 hits with Warpflame.

    Treason of Tzeentch: Hex spell that forces the target to use the lowest Ld in their unit instead of the highest and forbids them from using the general’s Inspiring Presence or the BSB’s Hold Your Ground for one turn.

    Pink Fire of Tzeentch: Direct damage using the flame template shooting off randomly like a Salamander. Sadly the wizard will not eat anybody on a misfire, misfires are treated as a rolling zero distance. The hits are Strength d6 and have the Warpflame special rule.

    Bolt of Change: Magic missile penetrates ranks like a bolt thrower inflicting Strength d6+4 on the first model hit decreasing by one each rank. The hits allow no armor saves and have Warpflame.

    Glean Magic: Direct damage spell targets an enemy wizard within 18 inches. The two wizards roll a d6 and add their caster level. If the Tzeentch wizard wins the target takes a S3 hit with Warpflame and loses a wizard level and randomly determined spell. The Tzeentch wizard can now cast the spell for the rest of the game substituting the crappy Tzeentch lore attribute for the original one.

    Tzeentch’s Firestorm: Small round template placed within 30 inches of the wizard then scatters. All units hit by the template take a Strength d6 hit with Warpflame. Like most Vortex spells, there is an augmented version that uses the large template with a double scatter.

    Infernal Gateway: 2d6 Strength 2d6 hits with Warpflame. If the dice roll to determine Strength comes up as an 11 or 12 the spell is treated as inflicing 3d6 Strength 10 hits.


    Lore of Nurgle: Theme is disease (pick your jaw up off the floor now). Most of the offensive spells can be mitigated by passing toughness tests meaning these spells far nastier against Skinks than the rest of our army.

    Lore attribute is the caster gets +1W and +1T (for the whole rest of the game) per 6 rolled while casting.

    Stream of Corruption: Direct damage spell uses the flame template off the base to force targets to take a Toughness test or lose a wound with no armor save.

    Miasma of Pestilence: It’s an augment that hexes. Enemies in base contact with the augmented unit lose one (or d3 if the enhanced spell is used) from their WS and I (minimum 1). Rather pointless against LM since we are already outclassed by WoC in both those categories by a fair bit.

    Blades of Putrefaction: Target unit gains Poisoned Attacks. Attacks that are already poisonous now qualify for poisonous hits on 5 or 6.

    Cure of the Leper: This spell has two versions the caster can choose from. You can augment a friendly unit to improve their Toughness by d3 or Hex an enemy unit to reduce their Toughness by d3.

    Rancid Visitations: Magic missile inflicts d6 S5 hits. Target must pass a Toughness test or suffer d6 more S5 hits. Repeat until the target passes a test or is wiped out. I can imagine this spell obliterating large Skink units.

    Fleshy Abundance: Now there is a gross spell name! The augment spell gives a target unit Regeneration 5+ or improves existing Regeneration by 1 (to a maximum of 2+). For 22+, the spell can target all friendly units within 18 inches (because Warriors of Chaos were too easy to kill before this spell apparently).

    Plague Wind: Since GW believes every army book lore needs a Vortex, for the 5 or 6 slot, Plague Wind is naturally a Vortex. Like most vortexes it travels away from the casters base and has a 25+ augmented version to use the big round template instead of the little one. Any model hit by the base must take a Toughness test or suffer a wound with no armor save.


    Lore of Slaanesh: Fairly heavy on hexes. An anomaly among army book lores in that it lacks a template spell.

    Lore Attribute: Whenever the caster rolls a 6 on their casting roll they get +1 to their WS, I, and A score for one turn.

    Lash of Slaanesh: 24 inch line of S3 armor piercing hits.

    Acquiescence: Hex gives unit Random movement d6 and ASL for one turn. The potential for nerfing a fast unit is spooky.

    Pavane of Slaanesh: Snipes a single enemy model. The target must pass an Ld test with an extra die or take an automatic wound with no armor saves.

    Hysterical Frenzy: Remains in Play. Another multipurpose spell. It’s a hex or augment with the same effect for each. Target gains Frenzy (or if they have Frenzy an additional +1 Attack) and target takes d6 S3 hits at the end of each Chaos magic phase.

    Slicing Shards: Target takes d6 S4 armor piercing hits. They have to pass an Ld test or take d6 more hits, repeating until they pass the test or die.

    Phantasmagoria: For LM, this hex means we roll 4d6 for our Ld tests and remove the highest and lowest dice (in mathematical terms this is called regression towards the mean). The augmented version hits all enemy units in a 24 inch radius.

    Cacophonic Choir: A Stegadon killer. The 12 inch hex inflicts 2d6 hits wounding on 4+ regardless of the enemies toughness and ignoring armor saves. The target gains ASL and random movement d6. There is an augmented version that hits all units in 12 inches. If your enemy caster has this spell, try not to swarm a Slaanesh wizard with all your well armored units.


    Chaos Mutations and Powers

    Characters can take these. The points allowance comes from a different pool from the magical item allowance but some count as magical items for non-points purposes. For instance if a weapon mutation is chosen the character cannot also choose a magical weapon from his magic item allowance. If they have the name of one of the demon gods in the title, they naturally require the bearer to also have their Mark.

    Daemonblade: Magic weapon replaces the wielder’s A score with d6+3 random attacks. If they roll a 1 when making attack rolls the wielders strike themselves. This cannot be avoided by rerolls but it can be CAUSED by rerolls. There’s a few things similar to this so if you have a scroll caddy that rolls Curse of the Midnight Winds you should probably not ditch it for Iceshard Blizzard.

    Collar of Khorne: MR 3

    Unholy Strike: Give up all normal attacks for a single attack at double their Strength with d3 wounds.

    Flaming Breath: Exactly as it’s named. S4 flaming breath weapon.

    Chaos Familiar: +1 to channeling rolls plus one extra spell known.

    Scaled Skin: Again well named. Scaly Skin 5+.

    Allure of Slannesh: Enemies must pass a leadership test to attack model or lose their attacks that phase.

    Poisonous Slime: Gain Poisonous Attacks, and a ward save of 5+ versus enemy Poisoned Attacks (boo hiss!)

    Acid Ichor: When the model is wounded the enemy who inflicted the wound must pass an I test or take a S4 hit. This power is cheap to buy and nasty against Sauri.

    Burning Body: Gains Flaming Attacks and 5+ Ward save versus Flaming Attacks.

    Soul Feeder: Every time the character inflicts a wound they have a one in six chance of regaining a lost wound.

    Third Eye of Tzeentch: Reroll Ward save rolls of 1.

    Nurgle’s Rot: Enemy models in base contact with the model take a S1 hit every magic phase with no armor save allowed.

    Hideous Visage: Cause Fear. May not pass leadership on to allied units either as a general or unit leader.


    Magic Items


    Hellfire Sword: Every army book starts out with an over the top weapon costed for lords only. The Hellfire Sword has Flaming Attacks, causes d3 wounds, and ignores armor saves. At the end of the basic close combat phase, roll a d6 per model slain by the Hellfire Sword to see if the corpse explodes inflicting d6 S4 hits on the enemy unit that count towards CR then roll a d6 for the wielder. On a 1 they take an automatic wound with no armor save from their sword turning on them.

    Sword of Change: Enemy monsters and characters slain by the sword have a 50% of having the corpse turn into a Chaos Spawn under the Chaos’ players control.

    Filth Mace: The Nurgle only weapon bestows Poisonous attacks. After the wielder scores their first kill, the wielder gains Terror and attacks that get the Poison effect do d3 wounds.

    Helm of Many Eyes: Like most helms it bestow a one point bonus to AS. This one also bestows ASF and Stupidity on the wearer.

    Skull of Katam: The wizard may roll 6 dice for channeling instead of the usual 1 die but must take a permanent Ld penalty of 1 for the game for each time they do it (dying if they reach 0). Tzeentch wizards may not reroll 1s for Channeling if they are using the Skull’s power.

    Chalice of Chaos: This one use item has a random effect. 1) takes an automatic wound with no save 2) gain ASF for one turn, 3) Gain Regeneration 4+ for one turn. 4) Gain 5+ Ward Save for one turn, 5) Gain Killing Blow for one turn 6) Take an Ld test. Passing it turns the character into a demon Prince, failure a Chaos Spawn (it counts as a casualty and thus victory points for the LM either way).

    Pendant of Slaanesh: Units the character joins take break tests on a single die. This means they usually pass leadership tests but can no longer roll insane courage. The bearer also permanently gains +1 Attack each time he suffers an unsaved wound.

    Blasted Standard: This Tzeentch only Standard halves the strength of enemy shooting hits on a 2+, doubles them on a roll of 1. It has no effect at all on Poisonous hits, so most LM shooting isn’t impaired by this except for Razordons and Salamanders.

    Banner of Rage: Mark of Khorne units with this Banner can never lose their Frenzy. If they lost their frenzied join or are joined by a model with this Banner they get it back. This standard is also cheap enough to not be BSB only.


    Special Characters


    Archaon: The most bad ass human in the Warhammer world since Sigmar died. A Chaos Lord with WS9, Ld 10, an 18 inch command radius, and all four Marks of the Gods. He is a level 2 Wizard that can take Death, Fire, Metal, Shadow, or Tzeentch. If there is a unit of Chaos Knights with no Marks, he can bestow Hatred and Immune to Psychology on them. He is armed to the teeth with powerful magical items.

    His magic sword ignores armor saves. He can choose to activate the swords power to double his attacks for the rest of the game (to 10 of course) but each roll of 1 to hit strikes him (Curse of the Midnight Winds go!). His magic armor and talisman combined bestow armor and ward save of 3+ each and makes it so no attack ever wounds him on better than a 3+ (that’s okay, we don’t have a lot S7 attacks in our army anyway). His helmet causes Terror and allows break tests to be rerolled by friendly units in a 12 inch radius.

    Wulfrik the Wanderer: This hero is all about challenges. He designates an enemy character at the start of the battle and gets +2 Strength versus that character. His challenges can never be refused and he can choose which model accepts them. Wulfrik does not have magic attacks. If you suspect Wulfrik is coming, give your Slann higher state of Consciousness to immunize him from being challenged and thus utchered. Wulfrik also may be deployed with a unit of Marauders to give the whole unit Ambush.

    Valkia the Bloody: I don’t like the fluff on this one. Lots of warriors have died trying to earn Khorne’s approval. As soon as an attractive woman dies trying to earn his approval, he resurrects her. Either Khorne is a lecher or has an affirmative action program. Either one is out of character in my humble opinion.

    Every Eye of the Gods roll she gets is automatically +1 Strength. All nearby friendly units reroll break tests but take d6 S6 hits as punishment if they break. Her attacks are armor piercing and get +2 Strength and Killing Blow on the charge. Her shield reduces enemy attacks in base combat by 1 (minimum 1) and her armor reduces Strength of enemy attacks by 1 (minimum 1).


    Vilitch the Curseling: The Siamese twins are a L4 Tzeentch Lore Master and have slightly better combat stats than most Chaos Sorcerers. Vilitch is bad news for players like me who like to squeeze every magic die. If an enemy fails to cast a spell, Vilitch gets the power dice in his dispel pool. Worse, if an enemy fails to dispel a spell, Vilitch gets the dispel dice in his power pool. Vilitch is the only one who can use the stolen dice but with seven spells, it’s a safe bet he can find something to do with them.


    Festus the Leechlord: This is the only WoC with mediocre combat stats. This is a pharmacist gone mad not a fighter. He bestows Poisoned Attacks and Regeneration 5+ on any unit he joins and is a level 2 Nurgle Wizard. At the start of each close combat phase, he can either drink a potion to recover one lost wound or force feed a potion to an enemy by winning an contested Strength roll, thus inflicting d3 wounds on an enemy with no armor saves. Since he buffs the whole unit and has relatively weak stats, it’s probably a good idea to put max attacks on this chubby fellow.


    Sigvald the Magnificant: The Narcissist has Stupidity and can never use the general’s Ld or BSB reroll to avoid it (he likes to look at his reflection). He has Ld 10 himself so this is rarely a problem. He is strong on offensive and defense. He has 7 ASF attacks at WS8 and a 2+ armor and Regeneration save. He is one of the few units in existence with generic Strider (he floats slightly above the ground so he needn’t get his shoes dirty, beware the Ken doll of Chaos!).


    Throgg, aka Wintertooth King of Trolls: Warriors of Chaos are one of the last Warhammer armies I’d ever collect, but if I played them, I’d take Throgg at every opportunity and make a themed army. A super genius by troll standards, he has Ld 8 and better stats all around. He also has a S5 breath weapon that ignores armor saves (super vomit). Armies with Throgg can take Trolls as a Core choice. Monstrous Infantry, Warbeasts, and Monstrous Beasts may use his Ld as if he were the general with an 18 inch range.


    Scyla Anfingrimm: A souped up Chaos Spawn. I addition to hitting harder and more often, he is exempt from the two weaknesses of vanilla Chaos Spawn: he has decent saves and no randomized movement.


    Galrauch: Many army books have special characters that ride dragons. Galrauch is a dragon (or rather is a demon possessing a dragon). Galrauch’s breath weapon forces toughness tests to avoid automatic wounds with no saves. This mighty dragon is also a level 4 Tzeentch wizard. At the start of every Chaos turn, Galrauch must pass a leadership test or the original dragon head’s personality will assert itself and half of Galrauch’s attacks will be against himself as the two head fight each other. If Galrauch is not engaged in close combat, he also loses his movement phase when having a schizophrenic fit like this. Hexing his leadership is thus a good idea if you have power dice to spare for this task.


    Kholek Suneater: A Shaggoth with slightly boosted stats. He can also call down thunderbolts in the shooting phase which inflict d6 S6 hits. They have a one in six chance of hitting Kholek instead but because he has the same Storm Rage ability of his lesser kin, this is usually to his benefit. He also inflicts d3 wounds per hit making him equal or superior to a Carnosaur in every way.
     
  2. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,596
    Likes Received:
    1,699
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Part Two: Lizardmen Versus Warriors of Chaos


    Core Units


    Saurus Warriors: They outclass Marauders but are themselves outmatched by, most of the rest of the army book either outclasses Sauri on WS and Initiative or Strength and Toughness (or all four). We can’t change the fact that the Warriors of Chaos have the best close combat fighters in WHF. What can we do?

    Option One is to make sure you make your Saurus blocks BIG. You are going to be losing most combats so maintain Steadfast so take advantage of the fact that our troops are cheaper. Option Two is to take the advantage of numbers by double teaming Chaos units. I’m biased towards option one because the new Warriors of Chaos have a lot of fast units at their disposal to make outflanking them more difficult than it was before. Option Three is using magic and buffs. I’m all for it, but under the old book I found magic by itself wouldn’t cut it and I don’t believe magic alone will work now. Options One, Two, and Three are not mutually exclusive


    Skink Cohorts: I like Cohorts a lot, but my instinct is to cut back on these guys versus Chaos. A vanilla cohort needs to be even bigger than usual to make an effective tarpit and I haven’t personally got the hang of using cohorts as redirectors yet. Against most armies I am fond of using Skroxigor to take out tough targets using sacrificial Skinks as a shield while the Kroxigor deal out painful hits. The problem is with the high WS of most WoC units, I just don’t see the Kroxigor being capable of inflicting enough hits to make the unit worthwhile since the WoC will be cutting through the Skink buffer VERY quickly or individually targeting your Kroxigor which is worse. I think Saurus Warriors are the way to go here unless you know for a fact you are going to be defending a building.


    Skink Skirmishers: To beat the superior WoC, we have to win the positioning game. Redirectors should be invaluable and Frenzied troops are common in the new WoC book. In that niche, Skink Skirmishers are highly useful. I don’t see them as being highly useful in the shooting phase. Giants, Chaos Spawn, Warhounds, and the oddball Manticores that don’t buy the Scaly Skin upgrade will go down pretty easily to poisoned shooting. Marauders, Marauder Horsemen, and Hellstriders should go down moderately easily to poisoned shooting. Everything else will weather a dart or javelin barrage as if they were mosquito bites.


    Special Units


    Jungle Swarms: The new and improved Jungle Swarms should do well against the Warriors of Chaos. If you use them as stalling units there will be no shortage of nasties to roadblock. There is no unit in the Chaos army that I wouldn’t appreciate poisoned attacks from the “They’re Everywhere” rule. Problem is that Unstable is a large liability against Chaos.


    Chameleon Skinks: I rarely leave home without fourteen or more of these guys. If I were planning a specific WoC, I’d probably only take seven. See the Skink Skirmisher entry for good targets for poisoned shooting. If you list them all at once it seems like a lot, but they will be a relatively small portion of most lists. The WoC army has lots of mobile units that can run down your expensive Chameleon Skinks without slowing down.


    Terradons: I would recommend not taking these at all. The one war machine-like entry on the list is too strong for Terradons to take down. You’ll have to take out the enemy with attrition most of the time so there will be relatively few fleeing units for your Terradons to run down and most Chaos units are too tough for a Terradon flank charge to phase them.


    Ripperdactyls: For a little more points than Terradons, you can get a pterodactyl unit that can actually hit hard to kill Chaos units (maybe). Your Rippers should probably stay away from the large monsters but they should be able to handle themselves against Chaos Fast Cavalry and be useful for flanking infantry blocks engaged with your Saurus blocks.


    Temple Guard: If you decide not to run with a solo Slann, you’ll want a lot of Temple Guard are our hardest troops and will do okay against Chaos Warriors and the other nasties of the list but they shouldn’t fight more than one thing at a time and most players throw all their best stuff at our Slann. Make sure you have lots of Temple Guard. You don’t need ranks because of Sacred Duty but you’ll want all the bodies you can get between your Slann and the Jaws of Death. As usual there is little reason to take these guys without a Slann. EDIT: Take the Razor Standard, for the love of the Old Ones take the Razor Standard


    Stegadons: I am not sure how LM should go about fighting WoC, but I’m pretty sure Stegadons will be involved. A Saurus/Stegadon combo charge is something that I think could actually force a break test on Chaos Warriors and the like. Just remember that Stegadons are more geared towards fighting infantry (and that they should be supported by Sauri). Most WoC monsters will probably beat a Stegadon in a straight fight. The Hellcannon can theoretically take a Stegadon out in one hit, but artillery is the risk we face almost every time we field Stegadons, and Hellcannons are rock lobbers so they don't have a cannon's precision so you have some breathing room. As an anti-infantry unit, you probably want to take the Stampede upgrade but skip the Sharpened Horns since they are out of their weight class against most of the multi-wound Chaos units.


    Cold One Cavalry: To beat the Warriors of Chaos we need hitting power and superior positioning. The combination of speed and hitting power that Saurus Cavalry provide us could be just what the Old Ones ordered, if only they weren’t so costly.


    Kroxigors: I don’t see Kroxigor inflicting hits fast enough to work against Chaos Infantry, but a large group of Kroxigors is a good way to handle the Chaos monsters. Like Cold One Cavalry they are expensive and you risk losing most of your Kroxigor before they get to attack. I think if you plan to use Kroxigor in smaller groups they should be used as flankers or not at all.


    Bastilodons: I don’t think this rookie monster on our list will help us much against the men of the north. Chaos units tend to outclass us in Initiative so much that the Solar Engine buff isn’t likely to make a difference. They tend to rush into close combat so fast you won’t get a lot of opportunities to cast the Bound spell. You’ll have better luck with the Ark of Sotek, wait, no you won't. S2 hits just won't add up. You have to keep in mind that's it's not uncommon for Chaos to hit at S5 or better and that without Stubborn, CR can kill these guys pretty easily if they are outside a Slann's bubble.


    Rare Units


    Salamanders: Salamanders aren’t useless but you can’t expect them to do your heavy lifting. A logical response to being totally outclassed in close combat is to rely on our shooting phase. Unfortunately most of the Warriors of Chaos List has good saves and high toughness. Salamanders may hit at Strength 4 instead of Strength 3, but Sallies are really going to miss the massive armor penalty they had in the old book. Also the enemy units are on 25 mm bases so you won't get as many hits as you would against most other armies.

    Besides the high toughness barrier, another limitation to Salamanders is that the WoC will be charging at you, sometimes very fast. You probably won’t get as many shots as you’d probably like. To get maximum mileage out of your Salamanders, hex the toughness or armor saves of your foes before basting them.


    Ancient Stegadons: They are a greater liability versus Hellcannons than regular Stegadons, but they more than make up for this by hitting harder. The same comments about combo charges between Stegadons and Sauri applies here. If you can keep an Ancient Stegadon from being chopped up by an enemy lord, an Engine of the Gods should help our Sauri out quite a bit against Chaos.


    Razordons: I don’t see a lot of reason to field the LM’s least favorite Rare unit against the Warriors of Chaos. I think they can help keep Warhounds and Fast Cavalry away from your Salamanders, but I don’t see them doing anything else. Even with the new improved range, I don’t think Razordons hit hard enough to threaten Chaos things without Vanguard.


    Troglodons: Leave them at home. Troglodons have neat supporting tricks, but if they engage in close combat with well anything, the norsemen will be eating Troglodon jerky for weeks to come.


    Characters


    Scar Veterans and Oldbloods: I would suggest that your anti-WoC list take one fewer of these than you usually take. They won’t fare well in challenges against enemy characters AND enemy characters will get to roll on the Eye of the Gods chart if (when) they win. When enemy characters are not involved, I think you are better off with more regular Saurus bodies to throw at the enemy than Saurus characters.

    If you do take Saurus characters with the intent of dueling the enemy characters, I’d lean towards Fencers Blades and Glittering Scales to try to avoid being hit in the first place but that’s my favorite magical item combo against most armies so take it with a grain of salt. I think the Other Trickster's Shard is a good tool to help fight Chaos characters. Alternatively, make a Cold One riding cowboy for hunting monsters (and use the mobility to avoid enemy characters).

    A Carnosaur could help take down the many large monsters on the WoC list but it’s a gamble. Most of the WoC have higher WS and I than Carnosaurs and your Carnosaur will not be very effective against an infantry block.


    Skink Chiefs: Saurus characters are outclassed by Chaos characters, Skink Chiefs are laughably outclassed. I’d leave the Skink chiefs at home except maybe as an Egg of Quango delivery system.


    Skink Priest: There aren’t many WoC flyers to use the Heavens lore attribute on. There are a few situations where you can use Curse of the Midnight Wind to make doubled edged powers of the WoC turn against them twice as often (rare, but worth looking for when it shows up). Wyssan’s Wildform will let our Saurus live their dream of slightly outclassing Chaos Warriors. Their main purpose is the usual one, a caddy for insert your favorite arcane item here. Remember that demon princes aren’t just fighters, they are wizards too. With a little luck a lowly Skink Priest can theoretically take out a mighty demon prince with a Hex Scroll.



    Slann: There’s quite a few things on the WoC that have magical attacks, so be wary of using ethereal to keep your Slann alive (not to mention the chances of crumbling).

    High Magic: Probably the best lore for us to take against Chaos. Except for Tempest, every one of the High magic spells should be quite useful against the Warriors of Chaos. Hand of Glory and Walk Between Worlds are especially useful.

    Lore of Light: Probably the best anti-WoC lore in the BRB (nevermind it won't get through armor). Saurus are okay on S and T compared to most WoC units. With the right Light buffs, they can even the odds on WS and I too. Losing a battle badly? Put Light of Battle on the unit. Many WoC lists take a unit or two that is vulnerable to Exorcism. Banishment is one of the few spells that stand a halfway decent chance of killing a Hellcannon due to extra hits and forcing rerolls of Ward Saves. It’s also handy that most of the spells have bubble options. If you want to use Lore of Light I'd recommend taking as many high strength units as you can fit in your list to cover Light's weak spot.

    Lore of Shadows: The WoC outclass us on WS, S, T, and I. Shadow can hex all those things and more. You can only hex one unit per spell so pick your targets well. As for Pit of Shades, most of the WoC units have good Initiative scores but a small number have Initiative 1 or 2. Politely ask your opponent to tell you if he is fielding any of those. Hint: The Hellcannon is Initiative 1.

    Lore of Metal: Most but by no means all WoC have Armor saves of 4+ or better. This makes Metal somewhat attractive. Enchanted Blades of Alban will help bring your Sauri up to something close to the Chaos Warriors level and the hexes are useful too. I think this is a good lore, it used to be slightly hampered by the relatively short range of some of its stronger spells but Skink priests can help us target spells (if you can keep them alive).

    Lore of Life: There are a lot of things that the Warriors of Chaos have that force enemies to take Toughness test or suffer bad stuff happening to them. Thus Life is potentially useful for this reason. Unfortunately since you can only boost the Toughness of one unit at a time, a canny Chaos player will just target everything but the buffed unit with their toughness test triggering attacks. The other buffs are useful too but I think the one unit restriction is going to sting since all your units are going to be wanting help not just one. I would recommend Life if you are planning on fielding a Temple Guard Deathstar or are expecting lots of Marauders.

    Lore of Fire: Flame Cage is awesome for its ability to hit several models at once and serve as battlefield control spell, and the Flaming Sword of Ruin is a great buff to help your Sauri stand toe-to-toe with their Chaos enemies, but the lore as a whole is mediocre at best. A lot of WoC units have Regeneration, but quite a few of them don’t. If you don’t know exactly what you are going to be facing, you are taking a gamble. Ranged flaming attacks are the best way to take down regenerating things but the direct damage spells are mostly S4 which is underwhelming against everything else the Warriors of Chaos have unless you are expecting an army lead by the Throgg, the troll king.

    Lore of Death: Purple Sun won’t help you do much more than kill the Hellcannon (a worthy endeavor but is one unit worth dictating your lore when you can't be guaranteed this spell?) since most WoC have high Initiative scores. The character sniping spells are a risky endeavor because most WoC characters have great all around stats. Spirit Leech is usually a good monster killer but about half of the WoC actually have decent Ld scores. Again politely ask your opponents what the Ld scores of the monsters he’s using are or memorize this list: Hellcannon, Chimera, Slaughterbrute, Hellcannon, these are the monsters that wilt due to Spirit Leech.

    Lore of Heavens: As long as you aren’t throwing lightning at Shaggoths and Dragon Ogres I don’t see a problem with using Heavens. Comet is a little difficult to use well because the WoC are not a static army and you have to be lucky and clever to place the markers in good spots. Midnight Wind, Harmonic Convergence, and Iceshard Blizzard are helpful but they aren’t overwhelming. Sadly there are relatively few flyers in the WoC army book to zap.

    Jack of All Trades: A Wandering Deliberations Slann would probably be subpar against the WoC. A Jack of All Trades Slann would do well. Very few armies won't have something that is vulnerable to Spirit Leech. You should aim to cast Searing Doom every round. Searing Doom can put the hurting on the smaller monsters. The four hexes and buffs are not overwhelming but they are utilitarian. Fireball is the only loser in this bunch.

    Lore of Beasts: I don’t think the Lore of Beasts will let our characters handle the enemy characters and monsters the WoC have. It might be worth it if you were taking a Skink Priest with the intent of setting it up so he gets Transformation of Kadon.

    Special Characters: Mazdamundi’s Stegadon isn’t strong enough to keep him safe, Kroak doesn’t hit hard enough with his spell, Oxyotl won’t get through enemy characters armor, and the fighty characters won’t be able to hold their own against their counterparts in the Warriors of Chaos book. The exception is Gor-rok. I think he could probably hold his own, but you want to give him buffs if you can.


    Broad Strategy?


    Our units are cheaper, so I say use numbers. I’d say use BIGGER units instead of MORE units because our chaff units can be swept away pretty easily unless you are good at using redirectors.


    The WoC have very little shooting, we have some decent shooters. It’s probably a good idea to delay close combat if it means you get more shots in. Just keep in mind that some WoC units don’t care much if they are being shot at. Salamanders should shoot at Marauaders first and other infantry second. Anything else is probably a waste of time. Skink shooting: Giants > unarmored manticores > Chaos Spawn > Vanguard troops (Slaanesh > Hounds > Mounted Marauders) > Marauder infantry > everything else. Razordons should be protecting your other skirmishers from Vanguard troops or not on your list at all.


    The Warriors of Chaos forte is close combat, ours is magic. Pick your magic lores and arcane items wisely and make sure your whole army is built to synergize with your choices. Whatever your lore can't do, make sure your unit choices compensate for it.

    You can beat a superior CC force with superior mobility and positioning. Warriors of Chaos have roughly the same ratio of slow to mobile troops that we have so this gets down to who is the better Warhammer player (or at least who has more practice coordinating faster and slower troops to work together).
     
  3. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is a good summary, I'll add some nasty combos I spotted while reading.

    Treason of Tzeentch + Hellcannon (or other Ld effects)
    Treason of Tzeentch is a really powerful spell that hearkens back to 7th edition, where you couldn't reroll most Ld tests and whole units would panic off the table. Fortunately our coldblooded nature will help us, but skrox units in particular make a tempting target. Skinks start at Ld 6 and then when hit with a hellcannon the entire skrox unit hinges on passing a single Ld 5 coldblooded panic roll. Worse still, the spell will remain in effect during our next movement phase, so you would need to pass another single Ld 6 roll just to rally. While skrox are the ideal target for this, any unit hit suddenly has to worry about psychology tests as though this were 7th edition. A saurus block hit with a hellcannon tests on a single roll of 7, which isn't as bad as the skrox, but saurus might be sheltering other characters within them or it might be a huge single unit of saurus. Ld 8 for terror, but still, far worse odds than a rerollable Ld 9. And while panic and terror are pretty bad in themselves, there are all manner of other Ld based nasty effects that I'm sure become more of a problem when you take away that 8th edition BSB reroll. If someone is rolling with Tzeentch lore, you can bet they're packing lots of Ld based stuff and will unload them on any unit unlucky enough to have this spell cast on them.

    Skull of Katam + Chaos Familiar
    This means an average of 2 extra power dice (and -1 Ld on average) when the caster chooses to roll, since it is 6 channeling dice on 5+. I'd expect them to pull this move when they roll particularly low for winds of magic, or when the upcoming magic phase is very important. Most likely they are not using the wizard as a general anyway, if they are taking this combo so they won't worry about the Ld until it gets really low. If it is a tzeentch wizard, then you have to worry about each of these extra power dice, when cast, also creating more power dice if they roll 6's to cast.

    Some characters + Mark of Tzeentch + Third Eye of Tzeentch
    I think there are ways to get characters down to a 3+ or 4+ ward save using mark of tzeentch (and other items?), and then third eye of tzeentch lets them reroll 1's for ward saves. This makes them pretty close to unkillable, and the hellfire sword a pretty tempting option, since if you hit yourself you still get your ridiculous rerollable ward save. Don't have the book, so can't find the cheesiest combo at the moment. It could be worse than the dark elf unkillable lord. Also a mage with this setup would give a big fat "meh" to hits caused by miscasts, since those can be warded as well.

    EDIT: Oh right, it's right there. The flying disc gives I believe a 4+ ward, then the mark takes you to 3+? Then reroll 1's for ward saves from third eye. Sick. If the points work out for this combo, this joker can just go monster hunting with that no armor save D3 hellfire sword and start rolling up powers on the Eye of the Gods. I'm not sure what the counter to this guy would be, since it is probably a chaos lord. Not many things bypass ward saves. For those interested in the math, a 3+ ward rerolling 1's yields a 22.16% chance to fail any given ward save. Pretty broken. It's nearly as good as a 2+ ward.

    EDIT2: Ah so no ward on the disc. But I guess you could kit anybody out with the 4+ ward from the BRB and then mark them tzeentch for the 3+. Making them fly around on the disc is probably useful though.
     
  4. kroxigor01
    Ripperdactil

    kroxigor01 Member

    Messages:
    451
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    No the Disc gives no ward. The most common combo i think will be:

    Exhalted Hero – BSB, Third Eye of Tzeentch, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Mark of Tzeentch, Daemonic Mount 240

    The character has 3 wounds, 1+ armour, 2.5+ ward and he is all about staying alive no matter what happens. But he still puts out 6 S5 attacks (7 with stomp) without any points into offensive power :p

    I would also expect this:

    Daemon Prince – Flaming Breath, Scaled Skin, Sword of Striking, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem, Chaos Armour, Daemonic Flight, Daemon of Nurgle 380

    This guy is almost impossible to kill with T5, W4, 1+/5+ save, ignores first hit on a 2+, 2+ ward vs flaming and is hit on 6s in close combat. He can fly so can fight where ever is best for him. He is Unbreakable. He can be upgraded to be up to a level 4 wizard (520 points). Basically this guy is a flying fighting Slann. Like a Slann, if you kill him you probably win the battle. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to kill him.

    I have a few more things to add:

    1. Air force chaos lists are a thing. Chaos can easily get 5 flying unkillable things into their list (the above Daemon Prince, the BSB above except on a Disc and 3 Chimeras). Lizards only real option against this is Death magic or VP denial and play for a draw. I would have said take a huge Temple Guard Deathstar with Banner of Eternal Flame but the Dragonstone is very popular on Deamon Princes and he would literally kill the whole unit on his own.

    2. Skullcrushers are insanely powerful but frenzied. Redirecting them is comically easy. Remember that they must overrun and pursue if there is an option to.

    3. Infantry armies of Halberd armed Khorne warriors are still going to be the norm probably except without any Marauders. If you see one of these lists you can treat them like the old book (but watch out for Daemon Princes, Chimerae and Skullcrushers).
     
  5. Anubris
    Saurus

    Anubris New Member

    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Wow nice review! I will be playing against WoC again soon (2.4k match). I'll let you know how it ended :p
     
  6. GCPD
    Bastiladon

    GCPD Active Member

    Messages:
    759
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    28
    A very thorough and detailed analysis. Good job!

    I can attest to the power of the Daemon Prince and the unkillable Hellfire Tzeentch lord. Both of them rocked up and cut their way through a Temple Guard horde without a wound. I don't know what GW were thinking with the Third Eye of Tzeentch but whoever created it needs to be banned from game design outright. 3++ re-roll 1s has no place in the game on a character with an insanely good statline.

    And this is coming from someone who also plays Dark Elves. At least the pendant lord is base S4/T3/A4.

    But seriously, stuff that Hellfire Sword. You didn't mention that it also has a chance of exploding with each wound, causing further strength 4 hits on models in base contact with the victim. At least its flaming, so dragonhelms all round (although I managed to fail my 2++ 3 times with my Scar-Vet. Sigh).

    Daemon Princes are going to be a pain in the arse, with the worst part of it being Unbreakable. On the other hand, non-flying ones can be redirected and they are still Daemons - fortunately, we have access to Banishment. If you hadn't thought about taking Lore of Light before, now's the time.

    I actually think that Nurgle Halberd Warriors is going to be the norm. There's not much that 24 strength 5 attacks can achieve which 18 can't, and the -1 to hit is a godsend for keeping your elite alive in combat. Its especially good against Saurus who now have the joy of hitting on 5s. Whee. Again, Lore of Light.

    Edit: I'd also somewhat disagree with your point about Terradons. With so much stuff potentially moving rapidly around the board, it will be good to have something that can respond in kind. Additionally, they will also still make a mess of most chaff units like Dogs, Marauders, Spawns, and Hellstriders. Especially Hellstriders. Damn, those Hellstriders. Those things will make a mockery of most chaff and actually improve whilst doing it.
     
  7. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,866
    Likes Received:
    1,024
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yet again, an amazing write-up. So predictable...
     
  8. Jabroniville
    Skink

    Jabroniville New Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Nice stuff here- I just fought a Chaos army, and won pretty handily thanks to some lucky rolling and careful tactics. The Khorne Knights are INSANELY tough (a unit, BSB & a Lord, ate up a unit of Saurus with an Oldblood & Scar-Veteran, an Engine of the Gods, and nearly a Temple Guard unit), but I was able to bring it down through attrition and the fact that I'd already dealt with everything else by the time it hit me. Lore of Life did really well (I assume it's usually the best Lore, but I misread the Lore of Light recommendation above), since the fact that I buffed the Engine beyond belief (Throne of Vines + Stone skin + Regenerate) was the only thing keeping me alive one turn.

    The fact that we're Stubborn in a few cases helps greatly (good ol' Temple Guard). Chaos' Leadership is only "okay", so try to use that to your advantage. The expensiveness of their units counteracts how good they are slightly.
     
  9. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,596
    Likes Received:
    1,699
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I revised this for the new book.
     
  10. Smexygor
    Chameleon Skink

    Smexygor New Member

    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So much good shit in one place. Once dweller bellowed a warrior unit and took out the Mage on top of the slightly worse than average rolls. Then used EOTG to slowly kill his lord on juggernaught beast or whatever as he flailed against my slann with Lore or Life boosts. He couldn't get out of combat and I kept rolling just enough distance to hit him even while in combat. Lost that option in this codex. An Oldblood with blade of realities may actually kill things if he could survive long enough. Lore of light boosts perhaps? ASF and high WS and Init with no saves seems like it could kill even a daemon prince.
     
  11. Boothy Baby
    Skink

    Boothy Baby New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Just a heads up that the skull of katam and chaos familiar are both arcane items (even though the familiar is also a gift) so cant be taken on the same model.
     
  12. serbianwolf
    Cold One

    serbianwolf Active Member

    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    what do you think would be a better lore against WoC - loremaster high magic, or the signature lore?

    the plus side of the signature one, is that you can spam searing doom from turn one, and fiery convocation isnt all that effective against woc, on the other hand you will miss arcane unforging, and possibly walk between worlds, any thoughts?
     
  13. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,596
    Likes Received:
    1,699
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Without actually having played a game with High Magic or a WD Slann yet, I'm going to postulate that High magic with lore master will serve you better. Searing Doom is a good spell, but I don't think a WD Slann brings much else to the table besides that and Wyssans. I would suggest tossing Soul Quench at a Chaos Spawn or some other smallish unit on round one and then dumping it for Searing Doom (or Golden Hounds or Final Transmutation if you roll it). After defanging the enemy's main blender with Arcane Unforging, I'd suggest dropping that for another Metal spell or dipping into Light. After casting Apotheosis once you can ditch it safely for Earthblood which is generally more useful and fills the same niche, or Regrowth if you are lucky enough to roll that.

    Of course no plan survives contact with the enemy. If you can't get these spells cast early, the benefits of swapping them out diminish.
     
  14. serbianwolf
    Cold One

    serbianwolf Active Member

    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    in my opinion the searing doom magnified version becomes youre ultimate spell, the one they have to counter because it can kill there skull crushers or a demon prince or something else nasty...

    but then you are left with other goodies wysans ore 5+ regeneration or iceshard blizzard or miasma, im guessing youd want to get into combat, or even spirit leech a character....

    i am also just in theory - hammer right know....
     
  15. serbianwolf
    Cold One

    serbianwolf Active Member

    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    flying skink + spirit lich seems a nice way to kill a hellcanon, you have a 5+ advantage atleast
     
  16. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Spirit Leech I think got a bit of a nerf with the latest FAQ. Inspiring Presence can now be used, so the Hellcannon would be able to use the general's leadership. Honestly I might use my High Magic swaps for Shadows against Warriors. Mindrazor got better. Pit of Shades is probably the best way to pop a hellcannon. Negating D3 strength or toughness can really swing a combat. And miasma is always nice, and pairs up with Hand of Glory to really allow you to dominate CC buffing, especially if you also have Wyssan's or iceshard blizzard at your disposal.
     
  17. serbianwolf
    Cold One

    serbianwolf Active Member

    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    but if there general is not within 12 inches therw leadership is 4 because you target the specific model right? (since they are a combat army i think there general will be away from the back lines most of the time)


    shadow is great but often not enough unless you get okam off thay can ignore the toughnes debuf because of high armor save...
     
  18. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah, you have a point about the hellcannon being too far away, unless of course it goes nuts and charges forward with the battle line. But it becomes a spell that the enemy can mitigate by keeping things within the general's range if they see you swap for that spell.
     
  19. walach
    Razordon

    walach New Member

    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Good tactica; one thing I disagree with is Sharpened Horns for Stegs - I think these are a must take vs. most opponents, particularly opponents like WoC with lots of individual multi wound models.

    Probably less so for the regadon, but for the ancient, his superior strength should see a couple of wounds against even insanely hard to hurt targets, sharpened horns turns that into a kill vs most units.

    Admittedly, getting a charge off can be tricky, but that's usually the case for lizards :p

    I'd love to hear why you disagree though!
     
  20. serbianwolf
    Cold One

    serbianwolf Active Member

    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28

    a few posts up a was arguing on the possible benefits of using the signature lore so yea you would have that one from the get go. i doubt that they would hold back since more damage can be done to them with searing doom then to you by shooting a hellcanon, atleast thats what i think...
     

Share This Page