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Was Ancient Egypt a Nicer Place Than Ancient Mesopotamia?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Karak Norn Clansman, Sep 23, 2020.

  1. Karak Norn Clansman
    Troglodon

    Karak Norn Clansman Well-Known Member

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    This essay by Luka Trkanjec grapples with the question why ancient Egypt remains so much more popular than ancient Mesopotamia, and homes in on a similar phenomenon existing in ancient Greece contemporary with Egypt and Mesopotamia, as well as cultural differences making ancient Egypt a more pleasing place to learn about compared to ancient Mesopotamia. This goes beyond stone monuments in Egypt having survived better than brick structures in Mesopotamia.

    Some themes of Trkanjec's nuanced drift is that of Egypt being a more serene and harmonious place suspicious of strict legal codification of people's status. Egyptians often portrayed themselves as embracing families and couples, with Mesopotamian art traditions being lacking in this regard, but excelling in terms of depicting atrocities committed by one's own side. Mesopotamia early on came to see domination, aggression and exploitation as something good, glorying in conquering warlords and developing strict legal codes with a famously draconic bent. While both were ancient monarchies, Ancient Egypt comes across as a culture who loved the good life, in contrast to the more pessimistic and misanthropic outlook of Mesopotamia. The latter also sported a constant phenomenon of impoverished robbers roving the fringes of the lands, without a similar thing being mentioned in any Egyptian sources outside of intermediary periods of collapse and disorder.

    It may be added that Mesopotamian kings had themselves depicted with whips, and some even claimed the title King of the Universe. I cannot remember a single instance of Egyptian artists depicting people being flayed or impaled, in contrast to Mesopotamia. Trkanjec's argument is not one of ancient Egyptians being bereft of evil or shy of e.g. depicting the killing of enemies, but it is one where the nuance difference between ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt is a noticable one, both in sources that have survived and in contemporary ancient Greek sources.

    So, comparatively pleasant Egypt and grimdark Mesopotamia.

    Whether one agrees or not, this rather long essay is worth checking out for anyone interested in the period (hint, Tomb Kings and Chaos Dwarfs, hint).

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  2. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    The Epic of Gilgamesh is pretty dark even compared to some of Egypts darker myths.

     
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  3. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Ohhh, truly interesting argument, and it happens i already know something (little) about it.
    Alas, i'm typing from my phone and job is strangling me, but i hope in the next few days to find some time to develope a debate.

    Basically, ATM i'm just bumping the thread. :p
     
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  4. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Mesopotamia is such a large region with so many varied kingdoms. Egypt is also a large region with 4 different kingdoms in its early history. The Akkadians were certainly know for their war prowess, but in all fairness their empire only lasted like 130 years. It never had the time for peace. Part of what impacts this is geography. If you control the Nile in the Nile river valley then you control the whole river valley. Mespotamia, in addition to both the Tigris and the Euphrates, has hundreds of tributaries. There is much more geography to contend with when empire building.

    When considering the dynastic lengths of Egypt most of their peaceful times are surrounded by periods of war. There isn't a super long lasting empire in Mesopotamia until Cyrus the Great. And he is possibly one of the best and most just rulers of any empire in history. He is know specifically for pardoning rebellions and integrating conquered cultures and peoples into the empire with equal rights. If anytthing I think it is more accurate to say Egypt is note worthy for its long dynasties. This is turn made for long era's of peace. Especially when compared with its regional contemporaries of Macedonia, Mesopotamia, Thracia, and Anatolia.

    It seems hard to compare the cultures side by side. And I really don't buy the argument that Mesopotamian Religion was more violent than Egypt's.
     
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  5. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Joining the debate!
    now, as far as i know, @LizardWizard is right. Mesopotamia was a collection of varied cultures sharing cultural bonds, unlike the more unified civilization of Egypt. Due to this, there's some misunderstanding about who is who.
    Babylonia was the main kingdom during the ancient period, lasting 'til the 6th century BC, then it was replaced by Persia.
    Persia was, indeed, a very open-minded empire. the Persians allowed the peoples they conquered to continue their lives and cultures... Cyrus the Great is praised many times in the bible by hebrews.

    The fact that we, in the western culture, see the mesopotamia empires (as a whole) as a cruel domination, is a direct consequence of the wars between Persia and Greece. So much of our cultural heritage comes from ancient greece, and no wonder that Greece depicted in the worst possible way its main enemy.

    To this common misconceptions, we must add the other misconceptions we have about Egypt. Egypt was never a threat to Europe, so it was never depicted as a cruel nation. At the contrary, in our eyes it has always been a mythical place, and you only need to sail the mediterranean to reach the shores of such an ancient and majestic empire. And anyone that went to egypt (from Romans to Napoleon) came back with treasures.

    So, middle east = bad and cruel guys; Egypt: very cool place.

    to this, add what we know from the relic of the past.
    Art (and most of all, visual art) has always been a way to support propaganda.
    these two "empires" used it in a different way. Why? (Now i'm just making hypothesis)
    Egyptian always favored a certain "grandeur" in the way they depicted themselves, to make them look in the best possible way. Look at the battle of Kadesh, probably the best documented battle in ancient history , we even know the strategy in some detail. It was basically a draw, but it was depicted as the greatest egyptian victory ever. Egyptians loved to make themselves look great and noble and lovely. Was it a way to distract people from revolting against the fact that they were living in an empire with a rigid caste system? You may suffer, but our nation is SO GOOD. Add the religious part that you will be rewarded in the afterlife, and it makes sense.
    Basically, the first hypothesis is: the art was merely giving an embellished version of the Empire, made for its own inhabitants, it was not depicting the real truth of "living in Egypt".

    Mesopotamia, on the other hand, was forced to face a different situation. Due to the fact that it was a place with many nations, in a place that was so rich of resources (thus naturally drawing enemies toward it) , that anyone that was ruling there, was forced to take certain actions to preserve the power.
    Some of them, were practical: you don't hold territories for centuries by eradicating their beliefs of their religion, you must let them conserve their culture, and they will live happlily as long as they pay the due tributes. But if you don't, then repercussion will be real.
    Hence the second hypotesis: the ones that were living in mesopotamian empires, already knew the good parts of it... so the art was just a way to warn the enemies (both the inner and the outer): don't mess with us. We (and our Gods) won't have mercy.
     
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  6. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    It is kinda crazy how Eypt has maintained its favorable view as a place of mysticism and enlightenment considering how much of a disaster the Ptolemy dynasty was. Like, some real Game of Thrones level absurdity. No dragons though :(
     
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  7. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I have reading a lot of PDFs of old DC comics. The Atlantis Chronicles was a series of comics that covers major historical events with the addition of the fact that Atlantis was real.

    Egypt was painted very favorable. Atlantis goes through a lot of Good King/Bad King eras. One of Atlantis worst ancient kings thought they should subjugate the surface world. It was ultimately the Ancient Egyptians that broke Atlantis' winning streak.

    The Atlanteans started in northern Europe and marched south so the Atlanteans gradually exhausted themselves and used up the ammo on their futuristic weapons. Also the desert climate was good for the Atlanteans, but they also painted that Egypt was more advanced than the rest of the ancient world.
     

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