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The Ultimate Harry Potter Thread

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Hello fellow Lizards, it's me again, with another thread!

    As a late 90s child, it was always on the cards that I would have watched the adventures of a certain boy wizard as they played out across the annals of film history, and I am indeed a considerable fan of the Wizarding World franchise.

    Therefore, I've created this thread that will serve as the place for all things Potter on Lustria Online, a place to discuss Hogwarts houses, memes, favourite characters, memes, potential wargames/RPG rules and memes.

    Anyone else here a Harry Potter fan? I know @Scalenex has at least watched it, and surely my fellow late-90s-born and the millennial clan of the forum must have at least seen it (@Infinity Turtle, @Paradoxical Pacifism, @HeirofCarnage, @little-myth, @Krai’kotak, @Lizerd, @ASSASSIN_NR_1, @DeathBringer125 possibly, assemble!), so I hope this thread experiences a good deal of attention!
     
  2. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    Well, well, well.
    I am not surprised that there is now a Potter thread, more surprised that it wasn't here earlier ;)

    As a late 80's child I remember some of my classmates in primary school reading the 4th book as it just had came out.
    I myself have not(yet) read the books, but my siblings have. And of course we have all watched the movies.
    I think that we watched the last 4 of them in theater. The first time I saw the first movie was in middle school during our English lessons, amazing teacher :D

    Last January(2020) I went to the Orchestral showing of the 5th movie with my brothers, which is an extra fantastic experience.

    So to summarize: I like all stuff Potter, but only know the cinematic reenactment

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  3. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    No worries, certainly more people know of the films than the books. I myself have only read the first 4 books all the way through, but really should read the other three sometime...

    Wow, I never knew they had orchestral showings of films - I assume that means with the music being done by a live orchestra? And the Order of the Phoenix too, that would have been awesome! (Order is one of my favourites alongside Philosopher's Stone, Chamber of Secrets and Prisoner of Azkaban)

    Which is your favourite of the films?
     
  4. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    I'm an 80's kid, but I've read the books at least three times through (start to finish) and a great fan of the series.

    Ironically, although I've seen some of the films, I'm not a fan of them. They alter the books which I enjoyed so much so received a bad mark in my mind.

    That all said it's a subject I really like and a great idea for a thread @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl !!!

    (I cannot stress how highly I recommend reading those last three books which you say you will get to at some point. To me the story is of a far higher class than the films)
     
  5. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    Yes they do that, exactly the way you think. The score is replaced by an orchestra of about 150 people (Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra has done a lot of these: Obviously Harry Potter 1, 2, 3 and 4 ;), but also all Lord of the Rings, Star-Wars and more) The sixth movie was due for this January, but due to Covid will be in November of 2021. This one is sold out. The tickets for the next one will be available after this show, usually they're sold out straight away.

    I have to think about this for a while, first that came to mind is The half-blood prince.

    The books are still on my to read list, the problem somewhat is having young kids and a wife that isn't that fond of Fantasy and Magic :rolleyes: (she has other qualities :p)

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  6. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    My wife's father lives in 's-Hertogenbosch and the last time we went to visit, he took us to Rotterdam and we saw the Orchestra perform the music to The Empire Strikes Back. It was pretty amazing.
     
  7. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    Awesome!
    It surely gives a new dimension to the movie.

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  8. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    So I was doing some volunteer work and there was a lull in activity and there were some children's books around so I started reading Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. I fell in love with it and immediately bought Harry Potter 1-4 then Then I watched movies 1 and 2. Then I impatiently waited for Order of the Phoenix.

    I have reread all seven many times. I read books 1-4 in a row three or four times. I read books 1-7 in a row twice.

    I am a fan of the series and always will be. I will not that the more I reread the books, the more the flaws jump out at me. In my opinion, the books do not have any big flaws but they have LOTS of small flaws. I still like the series. So note if I bring up stuff about the series that bothers me, don't get me wrong.

    I'm an aspiring fantasy writer myself and I want to look at literary greats and analyze what is good or bad and use it to improve my own writing.

    What I like about the Harry Potter series is that Rowling has created an evocative fully immersive fantasy world with engaging characters. What I don't like is dozens of (mostly small) plot holes.

    I got to go to work soon, and I got a lot of stuff to do in the next few days, but I will be happy to bring up minor plot holes in the Harry Potter universe to analyze.

    Spoiler alert, the largest plot hole in my opinion is that the Sorting Hat is very bad at it's job.
     
  9. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    you have intrigued me :)

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  10. Infinity Turtle
    Temple Guard

    Infinity Turtle Well-Known Member

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    (ANALYSIS OF CINEMA, NOT NECESSARILY PLOT - I"LL DO THAT LATER)

    AHHHHH finally... okay so

    A precursor for anything and everything I say in this thread, I have NOT READ THE BOOKS. This is not because I don't like reading (as we have established) and it is not that I'm prejudiced against Harry Potter (mostly - I will explain later...) I have just never gotten around to it. With that in mind, I will know talk about the Harry Potter films in a movie/cinematic/analytical way.

    I really like movies. I adore cinematography that is thoughtful, I love soundtracks that compliment and are complimented by stories, I have immense respect for a handful of actors and people that are involved in film making and I'm able to appreciate the rest of them as well, practical effects are underrated and I do believe you are allowed to change things from the book. So with that approach to general cinema, here are some comments on the movies.

    I like the Harry Potter movies a lot. I've seen the first one once, and have never gone back, the second one twice or thrice and only watch it in full franchise binges, I've seen the third one probably the most, I've seen the fourth and fifth around 4-5 times each, I only recently developed a soft spot for the 6th, and have watched it at least 3 times in the last 2-3 years, with the addition of my first ever viewing, and I frequently watch deathly hallows part 1, and slightly less, part 2.

    I struggle to go back to pre-prisoner of Azkaban just cause they're young children and I can't relate as much, and there is a higher frequency of universe/plot and cinematic 'mistakes' or personal annoyances. There is frequent exposition throughout the whole franchise, as Harry is 'new' the the world or whatever, but the first two films have so much more and it just bother me. I believe generally that films used to set up other films have lower rewatch value.

    Generic film thoughts:
    I think the acting, when not great (which I think is usually is), is still satisfactory, I love the costumes, the use of practical effects (which is serious underused in today film/tv world), I love the cast, I love David Tennant, something that is an absolute MUST for me when there is a significant setting, is that throughout the films I learn my way around and could feasibly navigate my way around, which is achieved with Hogwarts (from film 3 on wards), the score is great (both John Williams and the way his themes are developed and in a way modernised/actionised in the later films) MY GOODNESS THE VISUAL EFFECTS (mainly from 3 on wards) ARE LITERALLY A DECADE BEFORE THEIR TIME. LIKE THESE COULD HAVE BEEN RELEASED THIS YEAR AND WE TAKE THIS FOR GRANTED.

    Some of my favourite things:
    - The setting of Hogwarts (film 3 on wards)
    - "sCareD pOtTeR?!"
    - the dragon in Deathly Hallows
    - The Deathly Hallows animated sequence
    - the design/aesthetic of the Marauder Map
    - The practical immersion of the world. The world itself make sense on a cooking/cleaning, transportation, accommodation, study/work, who's-in-charge level and this means that once you know the way it works, you can simply follow the story and enjoy the shenanigans
    - The action sequences where the music cuts (in the tall grass/wheat field? in Half Blood prince where it's just silence and wand blasts, when they're running from the snatchers in Deathly Hallows Part 1)

    The end credits of films 3 and 6 are the best. Very cool and in line with the films (of course I know this was intentional, but the execution is admirable)

    Things that made me laugh:
    - When Hagrid stabs Flitwick (Warwick Davis) with a fork by accident
    - "Does it hurt terribly, Draco?"
    - Cedric Diggory doing the run on air thing after they teleport with the portkey

    Things that made me cry (or feel sad at least): (SPOILERS) This is moreso my first few watches, or when I watch the films when I'm an emotional mess already
    - When Ron and Lavender start dating and Hermione is crying
    - Snape dying, but also the memory sequence from the pensive was good
    - HEDWIG OH MY GOSH why did they have to do that she was my favourite I love her

    Things that made me feel things and are an example of good cinema (whether it was fear, foreboding, sadness, etc.)
    - When Harry and Hermione dance in the tent in DHP1
    - When Bellatrix is torturing Hermione in DHP1
    - The maze scenes prior to the cemetery in GOF are tense and filled with dread
    - The cross country montage in DHP1 of the travelling while the radio lists missing wizards/witches
    - Hermione showing up to the ball in GOF and getting mad at Ron later. It's just oddly realistic and relatable

    Basically, in the same way somehow the MCU was pulled off and I love it and we ignore the Incredible Hulk, Thor Dark World and Antman and the Wasp (these aren't necessarily my opinons I'm just generalising), I think the Harry Potter movies are a phenomenal feat and I will ignore the Philosopher's Stone and sometimes Chamber of Secrets.

    All of this being said, I do have complaints, but I'll save them for another time as this post is hefty enough. I'll also make a post on my thoughts on the universe itself, the characters, houses, the mechanics of everything etc. Before my next post I should figure out what my patronus is...

    I hope someone finds this interesting. Oh well.
     
  11. Just A Skink
    Skink Chief

    Just A Skink Well-Known Member

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    I also really enjoy the books and the movies, and I'm a middle-aged muggle. A friend with whom I worked got into the books first and encouraged my wife to read them. I held off, but picked up the first book and thought it was great. I've only read the whole series once, but I've listened to a few on audiobook as well. All of the movies are very well done. However, I agree that the books are more fun and developed (as most books are).

    I have also been to Universal's Harry Potter park in Florida. The Diagon Alley portion of the park is particularly fun and makes you feel like a young wizard again.

    Okay, now I'm curious why you think that?
     
  12. Just A Skink
    Skink Chief

    Just A Skink Well-Known Member

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    One of my favorite projects was to make a Hogwarts letter for a family member and a neighbor's daughter as well. They were printed and not hand-written, since my calligraphy is not great, but I was still pleased with them.
     
  13. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Spoilers ahoy, but realistically we are past spoilers on Harry Potter.

    [​IMG]
    Luna and maybe Trewlany are the only two Ravenclaw that break the mold here/\ Peter Pettrigrew is the only Gryfindor that breaks the mold. Sure Slughorn and Snape were good Slytherin but they had to go through a redemption arc of sorts to get there.

    Okay so any character that we learn about in depth, there is at least a 50% chance that their sorting was way off.

    Most of the good guy characters as adults were put in Gryfindor.

    Albus Dumbledore was a Gryfindor. He's not a coward, but his defining trait is not his bravery. As a young adult, he was most noteworthy for his great intelligence. As an older adult, he was famous for his magical discoveries. This is very Ravenclaw. He was hesitant to confront Grindewald because of preexisting loyalty. His lack of boldness is not very Grynfindor but his loyalty could be Hufflepuff. When Dumbledore was leading the resistance against Voldomort the core of his strategy relied on obscure magical lore unknown to most people. That's a very Ravenclaw strategy. As a young man or an old man Dumbledore is wise and clever more than he is strong and brave.

    Hagrid is not a coward either, but his defining trait besides his big size is his big heart. He is fiercely loyal to Dumbledore, McGonagall, Harry, Norbert the Dragon, his giant half-brother Grawp, Aarag the Spider, Fang the Dog and Buckbeak the Hippogriff. Being loyal is a very Hufflepuff trait, but Rowling avoids putting characters she respects in Hufflepuff.

    McGonagall was Gryfindor. We don't get as much character development as I would like. Her main character trait is that she is kindly but stern and very by the book. That's not something that neatly falls into any of the four houses, but if anything she is clever and wise which seems to be Ravenclaw. She certainly kicked the ass of the Ravenclaw door riddle and possessed a lot of obscure magic.

    Lupin was Grynfindor. He needed his friends to get him out of his shell which isn't super brave. Back when he thought Sirius Black was a killer Lupin was too timid tell Dumbledore that Black knew secret passages into Hogwartz. That's downright cowardly. Lupin's defining trait is probably his methodicalness and intelligence but not his bravery. He should have been Ravenclaw.

    Sirius Black is very brave and he flouts convention bravely. He is a rare adult that actually was sorted correctly.

    Slytherin are supposed to be ambitious. It bothers me that nearly all the characters just have an ambition to be Death Eaters.

    I should point out that Peter Pettigrew should have been Slytherin. Not because he ended up with the Death eaters. If you have ambition, but you also recognize your limitations, you best options is to lick the boots of someone strong and powerful. Pettrigrew didn't actually care whether the boots he licked were of a good guy or a bad guy.

    Hermione is brave, but she is not defined by her bravery. She is defined by her brainy-ness. If anything she is less defined by bravery than a lot of non-Grynfindor characters like Luna, Cedric, and Cho among others. Luna is brave to stand up to convention but she does fit into Ravenclaw because she is always seeking to learn.

    Percy Weasley is not very brave, but he is very ambitious. He's not a coward pe se, but he certainly isn't defined by his bravery. He came from nothing and was set to advance himself via hard work and sacrifice, essentially setting aside friends and family to satisfy his ambitions. I don't know whether it was book one or two when he read a book about Hogwartz prefects that came into positions of power. He should have been Slytherin.

    The rest of the Weasleys fit in Gryndor pretty well, at least the kids. I think Arthur Weasley and Molly Weasley lean slightly toward Hufflepuff, but I guess anyone family oriented would lean that way as adults. Then again, the unique form of Molly Weasley boggart signifies bravery. In my opinion people who fear for their loved ones far more than they fear for themselves are very brave indeed.

    Though I suppose I think the vast majority of adults would have a boggart that either shows dead loved ones or some abstract insecurity like Lupin's full moon obsession.

    Harry and Neville are certainly very Gryfindor. From what little we known, Seamus and Dean fit okay. Apart from Ginny, Hermione, and Luna we have very little characterization for any girls, so I cannot really judge if they were Sorted right.

    Ambition can be used as a force for good. Slughorn mostly shows how ambition can be used for good. A teacher probably shouldn't show that much favoritism, but it's not lie Slughorn is corrupt. He genuinely wants to help the Slug Club and he puts qualified people into useful position and provides sage advice.

    Draco Malfoy and his whole family didn't really have much ambition. They basically wanted to coast on their family name. I guess Draco wasn't very smart or brave or loyal or wise so he ended up in Slytherin by default.

    Crabbe and Goyle didn't have much ambition. Of course they didn't have much bravery or brains either. They did have blind loyalty, even if was misplaced. Evil Hufflepuff! That's be an interesting nuance, they are in Hufflepuff but are mostly loyal to the family's of Deatheaters so they hang out with Slytherin kids every chance they get. Sadly, Rowling doesn't deal in this sort of nuance often.

    So many Slytherin turn evil that it makes me wonder why Hogwartz tolerated them. You don't have to kill them, but as soon as the Sorting Hat shouts "Slytherin!" you should throw them out into the muggle world as opposed to teaching these psychopaths magic powers.

    It bothered me a lot that when they were taking student volunteers to fight off the Death Eater hordes, zero Slytherin volunteered. Standing up to great odds is very ambitious. Hypothetically let's say you have ambitious Slytherin student whose parents are not affiliated with the Death Eaters. They probably had to walk on egg shells in the Slytherin dorm for years and was both scared and angry at the position they were put in. In such a case such an individual should have boldly proclaim "Mahrlect you! I'm fighting for Hogwartz you monsters!"

    Just like in Disney Star Wars I wished the explored the many character facets of a rebellious stormtrooper I would have liked to see a Slytherin character or two with depth. Jumping to Star Trek Deep Space Nine I would have loved to see a Slytherin character in the mold of Elim Garak with a similar will they/won't they redemption arc though maybe Slughorn would qualify.



    Anyway there are way too many people that don't seem to resemble their House traits at all. A friend pointed out that if the Sorting Hat puts people in a house based on the traits they admire, and not necessarily the traits they have, then the sorting results make a little more sense.

    Peter Pettrigrew and Percy Weasley vaguely admired courage at least even if they didn't have much courage. Early in Book One, Hermione does say "Gryfindor sounds like by far the best" but the people she admires are all brainy by the books people, so that's fuzzy.

    Again, if you go by admiration than Slytherin would be people who admire badguys. Maybe one in four eleven years olds admire bad guys. I remember being eleven, a lot of the other kids were mean. In this case Hufflepuff really leans into "I'll take the rest and treat them all the same" because no eleven year old admires Hufflepuff traits. Most eleven year olds either want to be superheroes or supervillains. Maybe a tiny number admire geniuses but Hufflepuff would be the truly ambition-less children who admire nothing and no one.

    I think random sorting would actually make more sense but then it's harder to characterize supporting characters if you cannot fit a house stereotypes.

    I really like Rick Riordan's books. He wrote alot of stuff but is most famous for the Percy Jackson series. First off, while most people say the Harry Potter books are richer and more indepth the Harry Potter movie, most people say the movies were still enjoyable (though splitting book 7 into two months was not a good idea in my opinion).

    I will warn people that the two Percy Jackson movies were really bad. The first ten minutes of the first Percy Jackson movie was awesome when Zeus and Poseidon came down to Earth to parley, but after that they ran out of budget for both special effects and A-list actions.

    The gist of Rick Riordan's fantasy world is that remember how in Greek mythology the Greek gods were banging mortals and creating demigod children a lot? Well even though people don't worship the Greek gods anymore they are still around and they still are siring demigods.

    In a way, you can draw an obvious parallel between the Percy Jackson's cabins and Harry Potter's Houses. In Rick Riordian's world, kids are sorted by the godly parent.

    The Athena kids are in all Cabin 6, the Apollo kids all were in Cabin 7. Etc. The Ares kids were arrogant bullies and the Aphrodite kids were vain and flighty. Given the rivalry between Percy Jackson and Clarisse LaRue of the Ares Cabin 5 you could kind of argue that the Ares campers were roughly equivalent to Slytherin.

    The difference is while the Ares kids were arrogant bullies they had redeeming characteristics. Like true children of Ares they were barely tolerable during peace time but during times of conflict they were brave and loyal defending all the campers, even their rivals.

    The Ares campers were useful enough when the chips were down that the other campers tolerated their rabble rousing. The Hermes campers were useful enough when the chips were down that the other other campers tolerating their constant theft and pranks. In other words, all the camps had strengths and weaknesses and all had something to contribute.

    Contrast with the Harry Potter universe. Despite the two or three decent Slytherin people the House produced, House Sytherin is collectively dead weight at best, a liability at worst.

    I better get back to managing the current short story contest, then when the voting is started I can come back here and complain about more things I don't like about the Harry Potter universe.

    I should note, that while I enjoy tearing the Harry Potter universe into tiny pieces, I do it out of love. There is an expression about romance that you like someone for their good traits, you love someone for their flaws.

    I'm not sure if that applies to people or not, but for me it applies it art. If I didn't like the Harry Potter franchise I would not point out all it's flaws. I don't like Dr. Who, so I don't bother analyzing it (I don't hate Dr. Who, if you are fan I do not wish to offend you). I strongly dislike like the Kelvin Universe Star Trek (all the stuff released this century), so I don't bother analyzing it, but I do like the 1990s era Star Trek so I will analyze the flaws of that. If you are a fan of Dr. Who I will shrug my shoulders and say "To each his/her own." If you are a fan of the Star Trek Discovery (aka STD) then you are wrong, very wrong. But that's a topic for another thread.

    But again, I eviscerate Harry Potter out of love.

    If you guys want to start a Percy Jackson/Rick Riordan thread, I can eviscerate it out of love too. Rick Riordan writes new books a lot faster than JK Rowling ever did. My main complaint about him is that his new books are very similar to his old books. He copies and pastes his basic formula a lot. I wish he took more risks. Riordan let his teenaged son write a short story in a Percy Jackson anthology. His son is going through an edgy phase, so he wrote something risky.
     
  14. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Some great points here.

    Firstly, as I said above I really enjoyed the Harry Potter books and have read them multiple times each. So I'm with Scalenex on the fact that I really like the books, but there are major plot/story inconsistencies.

    The points you bring up on the Sorting Hat are valid. The funny thing is that, to me, it kind of fits.

    Godric G pulls his hat off his head and grants it sentience and the ability to see the thoughts of others. Fair enough. Now this hat is supposed to work out the personality of a pre-pubescent child?!? At that point, NO-ONE is going to have a clue on how the child will be once they turn 14, let alone how they will be in later life.

    When I read books, I have to be a reader and not look at it from a professional writing standpoint. It's the same with movies. Even with this, about half the time I can't blithely ignore HUGE plot or character inconsistencies and I have to shut it off.

    Anyways, like I said, I enjoyed the book series immensely and it is an international sensation so despite plot/story/character holes it still made it.

    I guess a good writer has to be skilled enough to be able to write a story that is immersive enough that the readers don't get pulled out by holes or inconsistencies with their stories.

    I will also say this.: Most of the time, I don't get into major holes or anything. If the writer has made a bestseller, then evidently people enjoy it and hats off to them. Having gotten back into writing recently courtesy of the writing contest (thanks again Scalenex) and also having been helping a friend with writing their first book of an epic fantasy genre, I know now it is very difficult to write a seamless plot and characters. So hats off to those who can! :)
     
  15. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    I personally would swap Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff on this diagram.

    Luna does a lot to help her friends throughout the last few films, and Cho, though all she does is cry a lot, is Harry's first love interest for some inapparent reason. Also Trelawney and Flitwick both contribute to the story a little (Trelawney predicts the rise of Voldemort and Flitwick helps create the enchanted shield to protect Hogwarts in Deathly Hallows part II.

    With Hufflepuff on the other hand the only influential character is Cedric, and all he does that's of any use to the story's plot is die to Voldemort's wand (which doesn't even contribute that much to the plot).

    I agree Dumbledore is more of a Ravenclaw, though he does confront Voldemort in the Ministry Chamber out of his own free will in Order of the Phoenix.
    Do we know Hagrid's actual house? In the first film he sits with the Gryffindor supporters in their match against Slytherin, but that could have been just because he by far prefers Gryffindor over Slytherin. Luna does the same in Half-Blood Prince as when Ravenclaw aren't playing, she wears her lion hat and supports Gryffindor.

    I would think McGonagall actually makes quite a good Gryffindor Head of House because she's also unafraid to defend the oppressed, such as Trelawney against Umbridge and all the students against Headmaster Snape.

    In Lupin's case you have to remember that he is badly affected by his werewolf curse. If he hadn't been bitten by that werewolf, he may have been a far braver person.

    Additionally he isn't afraid to sacrifice himself during the Battle of Hogwarts which is of course extremely brave.

    Yep, I agree with this one, Pettigrew certainly is a treacherous coward and will crawl after anyone willing to use him as a servant, whether James' gang of friends/bullies or Voldemort's Death Eaters.

    Percy would have been an example of a good Slytherin character, because as you say he's desperate to reach the top of the school hierarchy yet he also defends the school rules.

    The rest of the Weasleys fit in Gryndor pretty well, at least the kids. I think Arthur Weasley and Molly Weasley lean slightly toward Hufflepuff, but I guess anyone family oriented would lean that way as adults. Then again, the unique form of Molly Weasley boggart signifies bravery. In my opinion people who fear for their loved ones far more than they fear for themselves are very brave indeed.

    And we also get to see this classic scene involving Mrs Weasley in Deathly Hallows part II that signifies how brave she is:

    [​IMG]

    That would have been another interesting idea - some kids in each house representing the house's bad side. We already know Slytherin's evil; side because most Slytherins are portrayed as evil. Crabbe and Goyle as you say would be good evil Hufflepuffs, being steadfastly loyal to evil causes. Evil Gryffindors would be like the Ares cabin in Percy Jackson as you mention below - thuggish, violent and brutal but also brave. Evil Ravenclaws would be extremely intelligent, manipulative and cunning, pretty much like Palpatine, Lord Shen or a classic Bond villain.

    I'd agree here except with the Aphrodite cabin - they have nothing to contribute except their good looks and talent at make-up artistry, neither of which are much use when defending Camp Half-Blood against an army of monsters and Titans. But then, everyone tolerates them probably because they are so physically attractive, even if they are all complete airheads, because of modern society's superficiality.

    Apart from being named after one of Hogwarts' founders and having to exist as a result, the main reason Slytherin House is still around is because of what you said here:
    And as you say here:
    Rowling should have done more to introduce 'good' Slytherin characters.

    This would have been good, Garak is a great character and I like how though he fluctuates between being good and evil he ultimately chooses good and frees Cardassia from the Dominion (and becomes its leader in a novel set after the series ends). They should have done this with a Slytherin character, perhaps even getting Draco Malfoy to choose the good side after Voldemort snubs him instead of him just skedaddling when the fighting gets real.
    I agree here. I've read the main Percy Jackson saga and the first two books of Heroes of Olympus, but I'm struggling to maintain enthusiasm for it because he's just writing new stuff too quickly. I also have The Red Pyramid but haven't read it yet, and I'm completely avoiding Magnus Chase because it's a repeat of Percy Jackson just with Norse gods, and Francesca Simon's Mortal Gods series does modern Norse mythology better.

    The Percy Jackson universe is decent, but personally I would rate Harry Potter over it because Harry Potter has more gravitas and more structure to the universe, creatures and background, while Percy Jackson has a very 'winging it by the seat of your trousers' feel about it at times. Riordan often seems to press the 'Insert Random Greek Mythological Creature' button whenever the heroes reach another American tourist location, rather than there being any sort of written lore about where each of these monsters is most likely to lurk, because each creature would naturally have a chosen habitat.

    I would disagree with this quote because if this were true, bad boys should be loved because they have loads of flaws, and as you know I am on a mission to expose bad boy types for what they are - immature, infantile weaklings who deserve no truly respectable girl's love.

    I personally prefer the expression that you should love someone for their good traits, but also accept their flaws, because of course people are human and have their faults.


    As an aside we can also talk about the Fantastic Beasts movies here too because they're part of the Wizarding World. What do you all think of those?
     
  16. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Agreed. While the detail is different, the point remains that the Sorting Hat is a deeply flawed system.

    Brilliant analysis there. Thank you.

    To answer your other question, yes, Hagrid was confirmed to be Gryfindor but not in the books. Rowling pegged some adult characters houses in an interview.

    I didn't like this scene in the book. It was better in the movies because of skilled acting.

    I am going to approach all my criticisms from the books, not the movies.

    This is one of my minor annoyances with the series so I'll bring it up now.

    It is clear that JK Rowling is against the death penalty in real life. The Ministry of Magic almost never considers executing criminals unless it's Sirius Black who was falsely accused or Barty Crouch Jr who was prevented from telling the Minister of Magic about Voldomort's plan and putting the Ministry on guard one year earlier.

    The good guys go to great lengths to not kill anyone. They really beat this death in Book 3. True, Sirius Black was innocent but even when they didn't know this, and later when the rage was redirected to Peter Pettrigrew, Harry was pretty adamant that it would be awful for Lupin or Sirius to be debased by becoming murderers. Even in the battle of Hogwartz very few Deatheaters had to...eat death.

    Word choice matters. Very few times do characters use the word "kill" even when they are joking about killing people. Even when the bad guys are casually discussing killing people. Usually the word "murder" is used. Rowling created very little grey area for justifiable homicide.

    Even the idea of the good guys using lethal force against the Death Eaters was considered taboo. Until this scene where it's celebrated that Molly Weasley killed Bellatrix Lestrange and no one batted an eye.

    Okay, Bellatrix Lestrange was clearly Voldomort's most ruthless and evil follower. She deserved to die. Though in Rowling's universe, up until now
    "deserved to die" has never been a justification for killing bad guys before.

    All things considered, Bellatrix Lestrange trying to kill Ginny Weasley in self defense is far less evil than the other stuff she did. A bunch of other kids had died or been maimed at this point and that still didn't justify the good guys issuing lethal force.

    From a literary standpoint, it would been more cathartic if Lupin or Neville or Harry or almost anyone else took down Lestrange. Someone with a personal grief. Imagine if Admiral Akbar killed Emperor Palpatine. It'd be weird right?

    Also, it just said Lestrange was killed by "a spell." I would have liked to know which spell. Did she use Avada Kadavara, did she shoot fire? As long as you are milking this for the drama I want details.

    Probably don't want to derail the plot thread and perhaps should create a new Riordan thread to avoid this becoming derailed (because you have other delicious tangents on Riordan not far from here :) ).

    While the Aphrodite Cabin was pretty useless for most of the first series Riordan wrote, at least they didn't actively cause problems the way the Ares kids did. They do have something useful. It pops up in the Book 5 of the first series and constantly in his second series. When their loved ones are threatened (including plutonic loved ones) the Aphrodite campers can open up a veritable can of whup ass, but it only seems to kick in when the chips are really down.
    That would have been lovely. I hadn't thought of using Malfoy for this. I read an article Rowling wrote about ideas that she started writing then threw out. One of them was to have a Weasley cousin join Hogwartz and get sorted into Slytherin. She was going to be very brilliant and be sort of a rival to Hermione (though a year younger so the rivalry would be iffy though she could break the records Hermione set the year before). Also Rowling had the idea that Slytherin Weasley might be able to leak bad guy stuff to the good guys by gloating to the other Weasley though modifying your idea maybe she would "accidentally" leak the good guys information in a very Garak way.

    I got to check out Francesca Simon. I like the Magnus Chase series, though I will admit it is the weakest series Riordan has created. I still enjoyed. I'm just not going to re-read it the way I read the others. I really liked Red Pyramid. You can also do an apples to apples comparison with Harry Potter but it involves kid wizards. Harry Potter is a more engaging story, but I though the Kane Chronicles were worth a read and a reread.

    I don't agree with the quote either that. But it seems to apply to love in literature and movies a lot more than in real life.

    It is very common in movies, TV, and literature that a couple constantly sniping at each other gradually reveals rising sexual tension and then genuine respect. I have never seen this in real life once.

    Beyond this, I have seen far more Florence Nightengale relationships in literature, movies and TV then in real life. It's a little more wholesome than sniping being a sign of sexual tension but it's still not realistic. I liked the Hunger Games (books not the movies, I didn't like the third movie so I did not watch the fourth movie out of principle). In a young adult novel series, the protagonist is usually contractually required to end the series hooking up with someone, but realistically I don't think Katniss would have hooked up with Gale or Peeta. It's not a binary choice. There are thousands of single men in the Hunger Games universe.

    I do have a lump of obsidian where my heart should be so I am a bit cynical on romantic love. I am concerned that this going to be an impediment to me writing novels that people want to read if I cannot include a romantic subplot.

    I burned out from Harry Potter and lost faith in franchises. A variety of reviewers I trust said the Fantastic Beasts movies were not very good. I am not happy they axed Johnny Depp from the franchise either. Maybe I'll watch them someday, but not if it costs me money.

    I think Rowling had too much creative control in the movies. It was pointed out that the revealed Nagini was a witch who was an anamagus but they stated in the movie that she risked being stuck as a snake forever. Okay I guess that is a neat Easter egg for Voldomort's pet snake Nagini. A little weird but not weird for the universe.

    The problem according to a reviewer is that Nagini does not advance the plot, either as a woman or a snake, so her inclusion in the movies is a bad thing. In a novel you have space to include exposition easter eggs but in a movie you want to pare down the run down to things that either enhance the plot or show characterization. This did neither. Apparently the series is jam packed with Rowling stuffing tidbits of interesting but ulitmately useless lore.

    I cleary have World Building Disease. Scarterra has over 300,000 words of setting lore. My first novel has less than 1000 word outline. That's a problem. I got about 50,000 words describing the Scaraqua alone. Scaraqua is under the sea where Merfolk and Karakhai (shark people) and Astalakians (crab people) live among other things. Scaraqua has a rich lore which I am proud of. But my first novel is in a landlocked mountain range over a 1000 miles from the coastline. I'm not going to insert random factoids about Scaraqua into my first novel because that would serve no narrative purpose.

    If you guys want to talk about it, go ahead. I probably won't contribute to that part myself but I'm not opposed to other people talking about things.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
  17. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    My actual contribution to the thread is that I've seen all the movies (and i own all the DVDs), but i haven't read any of the books.

    Really nice and enjoyable stuff, but i cannot say that i love them
     
  18. Infinity Turtle
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    Infinity Turtle Well-Known Member

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    Well now I don't have to do my big rant/deconstruction of the sorting hat and stuff. My only stuff to add came up in conversation with my only close friend that has read the books and watched the films (also she has terrible judgment and no ability to guage whether something is good or not, and I don't just mean opinion, I mean she really can't see how Crimes of Grindlewald might not be the best film and there are many other things which I won't go into detail of so just take my word for it). She was talking about a fanfic she had been reading (I don't hate fanfic altogether as there's some pretty high quality stuff out there, but this is generic teenage girl fanfic so), and apparantly it is canon that Slitheren and Hufflepuff often mix and there are friendships that spawn out of the loyalty and protectiveness or something, I dunno, and in the fanfiction the slitheren characters get 'flesed out' in a very fanfic way and it turns out that it's cause they all have terrible relationships with their parents and have childhood trauma that they're the way they are. But why though...?

    I totally get that trauma shapes people and relationships shape people, but saying that not only does trauma only create arseholes, arseholes become slitheren doesn't make sense. I know this example is taking fanfic to seriously, but it's a common enough feeling that all Slitheren are arses, so instead of making them not that, we just use past trauma to justify it. As @Scalenex said, not all ambition is bad, so why aren't steps taken to show that?

    I said to my friend that in taking steps to de-generalise and de-stereotype different houses, we've just created new stereotypes, and I made a really good point about somethiing or rather that I've since forgotten, but I'm sure it was insightful and relevant.

    First of all, thought you said Lestrade and got really hyped for a Sherlok/Harey Potter cross over.
    Second of all, here's the thing. I haven't read the books, so there must be something I'm missing and I'm just ignorant, so please let me know all you people who read the books/know more than me...:
    Avada Kadavra is an unforgiveable curse, right, but it seems like one of the most humane ways to kill someone. Cause yeah, burning someone alive until they aren't alive seems... horrible, and then you can cast spells without a wand (kinda. Like Harry blowing up his Aunt or whatever in Prisoner of Azkaban), so why is it such a big deal? and yeah, what did Bellatrix die of? Surely there would have been more efficient ways to kill people, not necesarilly on the good guys side, as they would lack the will and determination to kill a bunch of randos, but the Deatheathers and people who kill a lot anyway surely would've put something together now?
    Crucio curse I get why it's unforgiveable, thought there would be other ways of torturing with magic without using it, Imperius makes sense, yadda ya.
    Thoughts on a 'killing curse' though?
     
  19. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Again this is all arising out of the bad boy myth, where the Slytherin is the bad person (often male in fanfics) that ‘needs help’ and the Hufflepuff (usually a female in fanfics) thinks they can heal them by being loyal and friendly and kind to them as typical Hufflepuffs are, when all that will actually happen is the Hufflepuff will just be abused by the Slytherin forever. Given that you say it is a typical ‘teenage girl fanfic’, it probably uses @Scalenex’s idea of the ‘taming the beast’ power fantasy which never works out well in real life.

    As I’ve mentioned before, it is my mission to try and expose this trope for the tripe that it is.

    It generally tends to be two types of girl that fall for the ‘bad boy’ figure - the girl who has been abused by a previous partner and misattributes the fear she feels toward her partner for arousal (as fear and arousal both use the same hormone, adrenaline) and the emotionally immature girl who hasn’t learned what the right qualities for a long-term partner are and don’t realise that actually bad boys are very weak people on the inside, because they are selfish, arrogant and bullying. Neither of these types are really ready for a full-on relationship because they need to work on themselves first (the former needs to spend time healing their trauma, and the latter needs to simply grow up a bit).

    Any safe, sane and stable girl on the other hand should ignore what’s on the outside and look for a man that is similarly safe, sane and stable and has a lot in common with them on the inside. Someone who truly loves and cares for them and at the same time has the inner strength to be comfortable and confident with who they are and what they want.


    Yep, the author of the fanfic has made the same mistake Rowling has, in that they’re vilifying pretty much all Slytherins. I certainly think that instead there should have been bad people in all the houses who embody the negative traits of that house as mentioned before.

    Avada Kedavra is unforgivable because it’s murder, like shooting someone with a gun or stabbing them with a sword is murder. It doesn’t matter if they die instantly and relatively painlessly, it’s still murder.
     
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  20. Infinity Turtle
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    Infinity Turtle Well-Known Member

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    I moreso meant that there are other curses that can kill, but they are not classified as unforgivable, as such.
     

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